Death toll in Texas elementary school; 18 children, 2 adults killed

[OUBubba]

What gun laws do you propose which would stop murders?

Any. How about red flag laws. That would impact murders, suicides, and murder/suicides.

LCM laws. Seriously limit capacity on magazines.

Proper mental health funding. According to a Texas state senator Texas is 50th in behavioral health funding.

You people will let the fact that incremental change won't be good enough to be worth it and will turn your back on it. The perfect being the enemy of the good. The fact of the matter is we have a serious epidemic. More children are killed by guns than cops are killed by guns - I guess we saw why in Ulvade.

More children have been shot dead in 2022 than police in the line of duty

Firearms overtook auto accidents as the leading cause of death in children

 

[OUBubba]

If you use 45,000 deaths as a baseline, impacting it 10% impacts 4,500 people. Not insignificant.

 

[Mr. Deez]

We have not made gun laws more stringent around these kinds of things since Bill Clinton. It's now an epidemic and we're not going to change anything now. It's the definition of insanity.

I didn't say we had. What I'm pointing out is that guns used to be more common in and around schools. Teenage boys used to bring them to school and show them off to their coaches. They didn't get in trouble and didn't shoot people. The big change is cultural, not the guns.

Thoughts and prayers are literally killing it.

Coach, put aside the underlying gun issue for a minute, because something more important is at issue with this kind of talk. Don't echo shallow talking points and slogans that insult your own religious beliefs just because your secular political allies feel good saying them. You're better than that.

Yes, mere "thoughts" are pretty worthless, but if you're a Christian as you claim to be (and I believe you), you know that prayer is more powerful than any laws any of us can pass. It's strong enough to overcome the evil that leads to murder and all sin. Let the secular Left ridicule prayer. You know better.

 

[bystander]

The perfect being the enemy of the good.

I think this goes both ways. Much of the hate-filled rhetoric from the Left being directed towards the NRA and many congress "people" is not based upon wall towards incremental change. It is because they actually believe we can eliminate these kind of things from happening.

There is zero trust in totalitarian socialists as far as their true agenda. They are driving a bulldozer and consider all Republicans to be impediments that need to be eliminated. And when these types of people gain full power then I cringe to even think about it.

 

[theiioftx]

Any. How about red flag laws. That would impact murders, suicides, and murder/suicides.

LCM laws. Seriously limit capacity on magazines.

Proper mental health funding. According to a Texas state senator Texas is 50th in behavioral health funding.

You people will let the fact that incremental change won't be good enough to be worth it and will turn your back on it. The perfect being the enemy of the good. The fact of the matter is we have a serious epidemic. More children are killed by guns than cops are killed by guns - I guess we saw why in Ulvade.

More children have been shot dead in 2022 than police in the line of duty

Firearms overtook auto accidents as the leading cause of death in children

None of those laws would have stopped him from killing others. He was inside for more than an hour. Up against fourth graders, there was no opposition to him reloading or having multiple guns.

 

[BrntOrngStmpeDe]

What would conservatives be willing to agree to in terms of more stringent laws that are not currently on the books right now?

The problem is this: if the emotional impact of these things get real legs (and it feels like it now) then you stand the chance of losing the war which means the AOC's and Beto's of the world become our true leadership. We have to give somewhere.

gun laws that are very, very, very tough on gun possession if you are a criminal.

gun laws that make it tougher for under 23 yrs to obtain guns.

Until/Unless a gun law shows impact in getting guns out of the hands of the actual bad guys then I can't support a gun law. My opinion is that we start with these four things:
1. Mandatory 5 years if you are a criminal and unlawfully possessing a gun
2. Mandatory extra 10 years if you commit any crime with a gun
3. Extreme limits on sales to under 23 yrs. (type of gun and waiting period)
4. Much tougher penalties for people that violate existing gun sale laws. we have laws on the books but in many cases the penalty is relatively small.

I used to be one of those "i can have a gun at 18 in the Army, so why not civilian" types but I've come to believe that young men present the biggest threat so limiting their access is a position i can tolerate.

 

[OUBubba]

I didn't say we had. What I'm pointing out is that guns used to be more common in and around schools. Teenage boys used to bring them to school and show them off to their coaches. They didn't get in trouble and didn't shoot people. The big change is cultural, not the guns.



Coach, put aside the underlying gun issue for a minute, because something more important is at issue with this kind of talk. Don't echo shallow talking points and slogans that insult your own religious beliefs just because your secular political allies feel good saying them. You're better than that.

Yes, mere "thoughts" are pretty worthless, but if you're a Christian as you claim to be (and I believe you), you know that prayer is more powerful than any laws any of us can pass. It's strong enough to overcome the evil that leads to murder and all sin. Let the secular Left ridicule prayer. You know better.

Bull. I'm a Methodist. I've been a church treasurer and I've taught teen boys. Prayers with no action is worthless. Judaism calls it Beracha levatala. Passing Phrase: Beracha Levatala ::: A wasted effort

I don't bargain with my Creator (football games excluded - although it's been a few decades). If someone's sick with cancer they're no more important than some other poor schlub with cancer. I don't prescribe to the "people just didn't pray hard enough" line of doctrine. I pray for comfort and peace. Almost a deism belief. Like the Creator started up this place and is hands off. If he were hands on it would not explain things like Ulvade, or Parkland, or Las Vegas, or Putin, or 9/11, etc.

 

[OUBubba]

None of those laws would have stopped him from killing others. He was inside for more than an hour. Up against fourth graders, there was no opposition to him reloading or having multiple guns.

And that's why we're doomed. There are surely MANY mass shootings that these laws would have helped.

 

[OUBubba]

I think this goes both ways. Much of the hate-filled rhetoric from the Left being directed towards the NRA and many congress "people" is not based upon wall towards incremental change. It is because they actually believe we can eliminate these kind of things from happening.

There is zero trust in totalitarian socialists as far as their true agenda. They are driving a bulldozer and consider all Republicans to be impediments that need to be eliminated. And when these types of people gain full power then I cringe to even think about it.

No one thinks we can eliminate this from happening.

However, if we're talking Republicans who are in lock step with DJT, they're right.

 

[Horn6721]

By
Good question
Shouldn't leftists have to explain how any new law would have prevented the Uvalde tragedy or Chicago carnage?

 

[Horn6721]

Ok Bubbs
Name some and laws that would prevent.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Bull. I'm a Methodist. I've been a church treasurer and I've taught teen boys. Prayers with no action is worthless. Judaism calls it Beracha levatala. Passing Phrase: Beracha Levatala ::: A wasted effort

I don't bargain with my Creator (football games excluded - although it's been a few decades). If someone's sick with cancer they're no more important than some other poor schlub with cancer. I don't prescribe to the "people just didn't pray hard enough" line of doctrine. I pray for comfort and peace. Almost a deism belief. Like the Creator started up this place and is hands off. If he were hands on it would not explain things like Ulvade, or Parkland, or Las Vegas, or Putin, or 9/11, etc.

That's fine. I thought you were a Christian. My mistake.

 

[guy4321]

Sadly, this is why nothing will happen. The folks on the Left simply cannot have a rational discussion on the topic. I would be willing to entertain additional gun control laws (even though I think they are ineffective) if we could get some concession on hardening the schools with dedicated armed security. I don't see Democrats agreeing to any concessions on school security.

This is the answer. Everyone needs to compromise to get meaningful changes, but most want only the other side to change. That's why not much changed from Sandy Hook to last week.

Imo, this is where good parenting comes into play. Those one on one conversations with your kids and grandchildren are highly valuable. It let's them know they're loved, valued and the positive confirmation goes a long way when you're not around them.

Yup. And parents have to work hard to continually push young kids to be around positive people with sports teams, Boy Scouts, church Youth Groups, and so on.

I have not heard one liberal idea that would have prevented the massacre from happening.

If the minimum legal age to purchase the AR-15s was 21, the shooter would have presumably had a harder time getting the guns in 2022. Maybe that wouldn't have prevented it completely but delayed it to 2025.

Reports are saying that a teacher had propped open, or simply left open, one of the locked outside doors to the school. That’s where Ramos entered the school. Could he have shot his way in anyway? Maybe, but perhaps it would’ve turned out somewhat differently were it not for the open door.

There will definitely be changes to propping doors open, but this will open up another issue. Say a teacher has 25 kids to round up. About 15 follow her inside the side door. She has to unlock her classroom to put the 15 in (and seeing the teacher disappear generally motivates the 5 stragglers to come in). If the outside door closes, the 5 remaining kids have to run a quarter or halfway around the perimeter to get in the front door. A bad guy stands on the side of the building to swipe a student. Unlikely but so was this school shooting. Okay you say, the teacher isn't allowed inside until all 25 students enter. So the 15 inside kids are bored waiting and start running down the halls. That interrupts the classrooms near the outside door. End result is you either need a side door monitor to let kids in, only let the classes use the front door, or allow teachers to punish misbehaving kids more severely.

 

[iatrogenic]

And that's why we're doomed. There are surely MANY mass shootings that these laws would have helped.

Maybe your party should quit trying to lower every moral and educational standard, and quit fighting against law enforcement.

 

[OUBubba]

That's fine. I thought you were a Christian. My mistake.

So my Christianity doesn't meet your specs? Good to know. I expect that from others here. Not you.

 

[OUBubba]

MAGA!!!

 

[Mr. Deez]

So my Christianity doesn't meet your specs? Good to know. I expect that from others here. Not you.

I don't have any specs, Coach. It's between you and the man upstairs, but think about what you're saying. Basically, you're suggesting that prayer has no power. You think the real power is in the acts of men rather than in the divine power of God. It's hard to reconcile that with Christianity. I know that's harsh, and I don't say stuff like that lightly.

 

[theiioftx]

Any human willing to shoot his own grandmother in the face simply is not going to follow laws. I’m this case, he went through the background check before legally purchasing the gun. He could have stolen a gun if he wanted.

 

[OUBubba]

Any human willing to shoot his own grandmother in the face simply is not going to follow laws. I’m this case, he went through the background check before legally purchasing the gun. He could have stolen a gun if he wanted.

As I said a few hundred posts ago, maybe we need to recalibrate background checks.

 

[Horn6721]

What in the killer's background since he turned 18 would have triggered a denial

 

[OUBubba]

I don't have any specs, Coach. It's between you and the man upstairs, but think about what you're saying. Basically, you're suggesting that prayer has no power. You think the real power is in the acts of men rather than in the divine power of God. It's hard to reconcile that with Christianity. I know that's harsh, and I don't say stuff like that lightly.

You do have specs and I'm found wanting in your eyes. Very Pharisee-ish of you. I follow the red words in Matthew 9:13. That's what I did when I got the call when my wife was going in to have an emergency C-Section at 4:00AM. My "wants" were implied in the words.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

However, if we're talking Republicans who are in lock step with DJT, they're right.

I sure wish you even paid the slightest bit of attention to anything other than your CNN homies. Did you know DJT came out after the shooting and challenged lawmakers to increase the purchase age on all rifles to 21 just like handguns? I'm guessing you saw that and just ignored it preferring to **** on anyone who disagrees with you because they are in lock step with DJT.

 

[OUBubba]

I sure wish you even paid the slightest bit of attention to anything other than your CNN homies. Did you know DJT came out after the shooting and challenged lawmakers to increase the purchase age on all rifles to 21 just like handguns? I'm guessing you saw that and just ignored it preferring to **** on anyone who disagrees with you because they are in lock step with DJT.

This was in Houston days later:

He didn't cancel. He wants that foreign money through the NRA. He needed it in 2015. He just wants it now.

 

[nashhorn]

Realizing it doesn’t matter a hill of beans but I thought this was quite true in a particularly human sense,

You go in, and within a few minutes people walk up to you and talk to you. Do that long enough, and people get to know you. After awhile, you develop a sense of community, and I think that makes a big difference. It's no substitute for a nuclear family, but I think it definitely helps a lot.

And I have no clue what you meant by MAGA in that post bubba. In spite of you’re ‘prayer’ opinion Bubba I still go back to eliminating of prayer from school was the ‘nose of the camel’ event.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

This was in Houston days later:

He didn't cancel. He wants that foreign money through the NRA. He needed it in 2015. He just wants it now.

My bad, this was after a shooting in 2018 in Florida. The dems wanted nothing to do with his proposals.


Trump proposed raising age limits for gun buys after Parkland


“In your bill, what are you doing about the 18 to 21?” Trump asked Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Pat Toomey, D-Pa., who were preparing to introduce compromise gun safety legislation.

Toomey explained that the bill did not propose any change to the minimum age.

“I’m the one bringing it up,” Trump replied. “And a lot of people don’t even want to bring it up because they’re afraid to bring it up. But you can’t buy a handgun at 18, 19 or 20. You have to wait until you’re 21. But you can buy the gun, the weapon used in this horrible shooting, at 18.”

“It doesn’t make sense that I have to wait until I’m 21 to get a handgun, but I can get this weapon at 18. I don’t know,” Trump continued. “So I was just curious as to what you did in your bill.”

“We didn’t address it, Mr. President,” Toomey replied.

 

[bystander]

So my Christianity doesn't meet your specs? Good to know. I expect that from others here. Not you.

For the record, I have no specs in that regard. As Tom Petty said in the song Refugee:

"You believe what you want to believe."

 

[OUBubba]

Realizing it doesn’t matter a hill of beans but I thought this was quite true in a particularly human sense,





And I have no clue what you meant by MAGA in that post bubba. In spite of you’re ‘prayer’ opinion Bubba I still go back to eliminating of prayer from school was the ‘nose of the camel’ event.

A friend's pastor father despises school prayer. He said it is in the constitution. His words, not mine. Liberal Menonite dude.

 

[OUBubba]

My bad, this was after a shooting in 2018 in Florida. The dems wanted nothing to do with his proposals.


Trump proposed raising age limits for gun buys after Parkland


“In your bill, what are you doing about the 18 to 21?” Trump asked Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., and Pat Toomey, D-Pa., who were preparing to introduce compromise gun safety legislation.

Toomey explained that the bill did not propose any change to the minimum age.

“I’m the one bringing it up,” Trump replied. “And a lot of people don’t even want to bring it up because they’re afraid to bring it up. But you can’t buy a handgun at 18, 19 or 20. You have to wait until you’re 21. But you can buy the gun, the weapon used in this horrible shooting, at 18.”

“It doesn’t make sense that I have to wait until I’m 21 to get a handgun, but I can get this weapon at 18. I don’t know,” Trump continued. “So I was just curious as to what you did in your bill.”

“We didn’t address it, Mr. President,” Toomey replied.

Thank the Dark Lord I've never made such a mistake.

Deez: That's a joke from Silicon Valley. Not a Satanist. - Thank God! - Praise the dark lord, that's great news.

 

[guy4321]

Bull. I'm a Methodist. I've been a church treasurer and I've taught teen boys. Prayers with no action is worthless. Judaism calls it Beracha levatala. Passing Phrase: Beracha Levatala ::: A wasted effort

I don't bargain with my Creator (football games excluded - although it's been a few decades). If someone's sick with cancer they're no more important than some other poor schlub with cancer. I don't prescribe to the "people just didn't pray hard enough" line of doctrine. I pray for comfort and peace. Almost a deism belief. Like the Creator started up this place and is hands off. If he were hands on it would not explain things like Ulvade, or Parkland, or Las Vegas, or Putin, or 9/11, etc.

You seem to have missed the purpose of prayer. It's to bring yourself into alignment with God's will - not have God align to your will. And for God to be hands-on, He has to stop every evil person's actions? Goodbye free will?

On your statement 'Prayers with no action is worthless,' take a poor Christian dude in Zimbabwe who hears about Ulvade. He prays for comfort for the physically and emotionally injured children and grieving families. That doesn't count for you? What else does he have to do? Lobby his government to lobby the US government to change? Send money to Texas? Or what for his prayer to count?

 

[nashhorn]

Well Bubba, good for your friend’s Dad but for me, well I disagree. Although I do believe the old adage, as long as there are tests in school there will be prayer.