Venezuelan Update (Florida Maquis)

[iatrogenic]

Mus, is actually right about US involvement in Syria. Obama gave Al-Qaeda weapons to attack Assad. They did and gained enough power to call themselves a State, hence ISIS. Then went back to Northern Iraq to take more land. Obama did a bad thing and Trump hasn't ended the bad thing yet even though he campaigned on it.

Bottomline is I wish we could all agree on 2 things. 1) Maduro is awful and he run his own country into the ground, 2) The US should leave them the hell alone to run their own affairs. They voted in Chavez and got Maduro whether they voted for him or not, but they are going to have to get themselves out of this.

Under this premise, the US government should drop all economic sanctions. US business and banks should be free to conduct business with Venezuela if they so choose. They won't because it will be a bad investment with little chance of success, but at least yahoos like Musberger would be down one talking point.

Oh hell, I forgot we wanted to win talking points. Let 'em starve.

 

[Musburger1]

Voltairenet.org published what is claimed to be the plan submitted by SOCOM commander Admiral Tidd to overthrow Maduro. Voltaire published the volume on Feb 23, 2018, more than 14 months ago.

Plan to overthrow the Venezuelan Dictatorship – “Masterstroke”, by Kurt W. Tidd

If authentic, Tidd is clearly an ideologue, and the plan has been followed as proscribed. For easier reading, you can go to the link below if the fine print in the top link is difficult to see.

Top Secret US Plan for Toppling Maduro and Eliminating Venezuelan Social Democracy - Stephen Lendman

Kurt W. Tidd - Wikipedia

 

[Musburger1]

Meet the key players...on both teams.

 

[I35]

Mus, is actually right about US involvement in Syria. Obama gave Al-Qaeda weapons to attack Assad. They did and gained enough power to call themselves a State, hence ISIS. Then went back to Northern Iraq to take more land. Obama did a bad thing and Trump hasn't ended the bad thing yet even though he campaigned on it.

Bottomline is I wish we could all agree on 2 things. 1) Maduro is awful and he run his own country into the ground, 2) The US should leave them the hell alone to run their own affairs. They voted in Chavez and got Maduro whether they voted for him or not, but they are going to have to get themselves out of this.

Under this premise, the US government should drop all economic sanctions. US business and banks should be free to conduct business with Venezuela if they so choose. They won't because it will be a bad investment with little chance of success, but at least yahoos like Musberger would be down one talking point.

So the US endorses having a free and fair election. And this admin endorses a candidate for that election. But what specifically are we doing that has caused the change of events this week with the people of Venezuela’s uprising? They are fighting Maduro currently because they are in a fight for their lives with starvation.

 

[Musburger1]

So the US endorses having a free and fair election. And this admin endorses a candidate for that election. But what specifically are we doing that has caused the change of events this week with the people of Venezuela’s uprising? They are fighting Maduro currently because they are in a fight for their lives with starvation.

You have no clue as to what the situation. Guaido’s support (the opposition to Maduro) is from the elite and upper middle class; not the “starving population.” It is the long-term poorer classes, the population with indigenous and Afro roots which support Maduro. Guido’s supporters want total private ownership. Maduro’s supporters are split on this question, but opposed to loss of sovereignty which was the situation pre-Chavez. The “starvation” narratives are for pea brains such as yourself who can’t understand complex concepts.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

It is the long-term poorer classes, the population with indigenous and Afro roots which support Maduro.

Of course it's the uneducated poor people who are starving that support the guy who says he'll give them everything for free. It makes perfect sense because that's the core base of the democratic party in the US.

 

[I35]

Of course it's the uneducated poor people who are starving that support the guy who says he'll give them everything for free. It makes perfect sense because that's the core base of the democratic party in the US.

The guy that says it’s a very “complex concept” doesn’t even know what he just said. I’m getting the popcorn out because it’s very entertaining to watch him make a mess out of his Russian love.

 

[Musburger1]

Of course it's the uneducated poor people who are starving that support the guy who says he'll give them everything for free. It makes perfect sense because that's the core base of the democratic party in the US.

Very different. The “left” in Venezuela are religious conservatives. Prior to Chavez, the illiteracy rate and poverty rate were extremely high. Now the literacy rate is among the highest in South America. And although living standards are now falling, those old enough to have lived before Chavez (when Venezuela was a rich country - but the poverty rate was 80%) remember how bad it was before when a small percentage of people owned all the wealth.

On the contrary, unlike the welfare queens in the US, South Americans tend to exhibit strong work ethics. You are just reciting memes and cliches you’ve heard for years. You are misguided and the US government and media want you to stay that way.

 

[Musburger1]

The guy that says it’s a very “complex concept” doesn’t even know what he just said. I’m getting the popcorn out because it’s very entertaining to watch him make a mess out of his Russian love.

You are obviously incapable of cobbling together cogent arguments so you resort to straw man statements with no basis in fact such as “Russian lover” or “dictator who starved and brutalizes his own people” and the like. Go read some books for a month or so, take positions on facts rather than hearsay and propaganda, and then come back.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Very different. The “left” in Venezuela are religious conservatives.

I said poor uneducated. Didn't say anything about left or right.

Now the literacy rate is among the highest in South America.

You try to make it sound like they were well educated, but that's a pretty low bar you set.

On the contrary, unlike the welfare queens in the US, South Americans tend to exhibit strong work ethics.

Being uneducated, poor and living on the govt teet is the same here or there. No work ethic is required.

You are just reciting memes and cliches you’ve heard for years.

There is no meme or internet quotes required to understand what I'm saying. Your arguments are really sad and quite frankly soft.

 

[Musburger1]

I said poor uneducated. Didn't say anything about left or right.

You said the poor and uneducated make up the core of the Democratic party. The core of the Democratic Party is now the various groups collectively that make up what is referred to as identity politics. This does include the poor and uneducated, but also the urban and educated. Virtually all of these are considered leftist, secular, and liberal. Not so in the Venezuelan barrios.

You try to make it sound like they were well educated, but that's a pretty low bar you set.

The point, is that large segments of the population had been left behind for decades under a colonial, even fuedal, type of arrangement. They saw their lives improve because the proceeds coming from the natural resources in Venezuela - oil specifically - now benefited the nation as a whole rather than an elite few.

Suppose a handful of corporations owned all water rights, and the public wasn't entitled to its use unless they could pay the market price? Many countries look at oil as belonging to the people including Mexico, Brazil, and Saudi Arabia (in the case of the latter, the Royals take the lion's share and crumbs go to the general public). The means of production are controlled by the state in those countries as well. Some of Russia's oil industry is privatized and some is run by the state. Many Americans have been led to think that anything belonging to the people that's run by the state is evil or doomed to failure. What about our national parks and interstate highway systems?

Being uneducated, poor and living on the govt teet is the same here or there. No work ethic is required.

There is the working poor and there is the deadbeat poor; alcoholics, drug addicts, lazy, etc. These factors are within the control of the individual. Venezuela faces another factor beyond the control of its citizens. Illegal, harsh, sanctions which deprive the country of medicine, supplies, and access to capital. Are you incapable of understanding the effects on an economy when the most powerful nation on the planet has targeted you for destruction?

There is no meme or internet quotes required to understand what I'm saying. Your arguments are really sad and quite frankly soft.

The reader will have to judge whether my arguments make sense or if your words are anything other than nonsense.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

You said the poor and uneducated make up the core of the Democratic party.

Yes, in the US. Didn't say liberal or left down there. You decided to make that correlation.

The point, is that large segments of the population had been left behind for decades under a colonial, even fuedal, type of arrangement. They saw their lives improve because the proceeds coming from the natural resources in Venezuela - oil specifically - now benefited the nation as a whole rather than an elite few.

Suppose a handful of corporations owned all water rights, and the public wasn't entitled to its use unless they could pay the market price? Many countries look at oil as belonging to the people including Mexico, Brazil, and Saudi Arabia (in the case of the latter, the Royals take the lion's share and crumbs go to the general public). The means of production are controlled by the state in those countries as well. Some of Russia's oil industry is privatized and some is run by the state. Many Americans have been led to think that anything belonging to the people that's run by the state is evil or doomed to failure. What about our national parks and interstate highway systems?

Again, poor and uneducated is what I said and meant. All the reasons why don't matter because it is what they are and they are promised all the freebies to live. No misdirection by you will change that simple fact.

Are you incapable of understanding the effects on an economy when the most powerful nation on the planet has targeted you for destruction?

Cuba blamed the US too when almost all of the problems come from within. Open your eyes.

 

[Musburger1]

Yes, in the US. Didn't say liberal or left down there. You decided to make that correlation.



Again, poor and uneducated is what I said and meant. All the reasons why don't matter because it is what they are and they are promised all the freebies to live. No misdirection by you will change that simple fact.


Cuba blamed the US too when almost all of the problems come from within. Open your eyes.

We’ve seen what US intervention resulted in with Iraq. We’ve seen what happened in Libya. In Syria. Regardless whether the predicament of Venezuela’s economy results solely from Maduro or is due to the combination of Maduro and US financial attack, do you actually believe Trump and his henchmen are pressuring and threatening that country out of humanitarian concern? Do you honestly believe that? Do you think that’s why war was launched against Iraq, Libya, and Syria? How dumb are you?

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

You're changing the subject. I specifically posted about Maduros supporters and you're changing it to US hate. I'm not going there with you because you are full of crap. I watched a half hour of BBC coverage of this situation this morning. All of it is exactly opposite of your hate speech toward the US. I suppose the US controls the BBC too.

 

[Musburger1]

You're changing the subject. I specifically posted about Maduros supporters and you're changing it to US hate. I'm not going there with you because you are full of crap. I watched a half hour of BBC coverage of this situation this morning. All of it is exactly opposite of your hate speech toward the US. I suppose the US controls the BBC too.

The BBC is one of the most biased, espionage infiltrated media in the world.

Why don’t you answer my question? Do you honestly think the US gives a rats *** about the population down there? If so, then why not the same consideration for the Yemen population? Why not overthrow the corrupt Saudi dictatorship instead of allying with it?

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

The BBC is one of the most biased, espionage infiltrated media in the world.

Of course, clearly just a mouth piece in support of US viewpoints. Only 3rd world socialist propaganda news can be believed. Gotcha!

Why don’t you answer my question?

Because I'm not going to argue that with you. Your opinion will not be changed so there is no point.

 

[Musburger1]

Of course, clearly just a mouth piece in support of US viewpoints. Only 3rd world socialist propaganda news can be believed. Gotcha!





Because I'm not going to argue that with you. Your opinion will not be changed so there is no point.

By stating you can’t change my opinion, you have indirectly answered my question. You do believe that attacking sovereign governments for “humanitarian reasons” is legitimate. Fine. I’m simply wondering why, since that is your position, you either can’t or won’t justify your position with an argument of how such policy is beneficial to the target population or even to the US. I’ve made my case by citing recent examples (Iraq, Libya, Syria). Clearly the people in those countries are far worse off now and the US is trillions more indebted as a result. Hence, either the humanitarian Justification for intervention has been a collosal failure, or this was never the real reason for intervention to begin with; just a tool to manipulate the public. Trump himself said that invading Iraq was a mistake, but we should have seized the oil. Bolton already has his sights on the Venezuelan oil fields.

Damn, you’re stupid.

 

[I35]

By stating you can’t change my opinion, you have indirectly answered my question. You do believe that attacking sovereign governments for “humanitarian reasons” is legitimate. Fine. I’m simply wondering why, since that is your position, you either can’t or won’t justify your position with an argument of how such policy is beneficial to the target population or even to the US. I’ve made my case by citing recent examples (Iraq, Libya, Syria). Clearly the people in those countries are far worse off now and the US is trillions more indebted as a result. Hence, either the humanitarian Justification for intervention has been a collosal failure, or this was never the real reason for intervention to begin with; just a tool to manipulate the public. Trump himself said that invading Iraq was a mistake, but we should have seized the oil. Bolton already has his sights on the Venezuelan oil fields.

Damn, you’re stupid.

Nobody wants to discuss this with you because your positions are retarded. First Iraq is far better than when Hussein was in power. Just gettin to vote in free elections is huge for that country. Not only that but we will never have to deal with Iraq again because he’s gone. Yes we should have taken the oil to at least pay ourselves back. Libya was Obama and Hillary’s doing. That was a **** show all the way around. They are clowns and had no business trying to lead in foreign affairs. They were not respected by everyone and was pushed around like the sissy’s they are. And last how do you even compare Venezuela to this other countries as far as how we are involved. We are leading from where we sit.

Oh and you prefer Russia to have all the influence over Venezuela and Maduro. The people are starving there and I’m not sure why you can’t get that through your thick head. For you to be the party of humanity, you don’t give a **** about the starving people. You’d rather look the other way and argue that Rd not happening.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

By stating you can’t change my opinion, you have indirectly answered my question. You do believe that attacking sovereign governments for “humanitarian reasons” is legitimate. Fine. I’m simply wondering why, since that is your position, you either can’t or won’t justify your position with an argument of how such policy is beneficial to the target population or even to the US. I’ve made my case by citing recent examples (Iraq, Libya, Syria). Clearly the people in those countries are far worse off now and the US is trillions more indebted as a result. Hence, either the humanitarian Justification for intervention has been a collosal failure, or this was never the real reason for intervention to begin with; just a tool to manipulate the public. Trump himself said that invading Iraq was a mistake, but we should have seized the oil. Bolton already has his sights on the Venezuelan oil fields.

Damn, you’re stupid.

LOL! So typical of a commie lover to tell me what I'm thinking or what I should think. The best part is that I live in the best country in the World and have the freedom to think what I want. As long as I am alive it will stay that way. Suck on that and swallow hard!

 

[Musburger1]

The best part is that I live in the best country in the World and have the freedom to think what I want. As long as I am alive it will stay that way. Suck on that and swallow hard!

Well yes. You are a live example that stupid people still have the right to think and express idiocy as long as it doesn’t threaten the state.

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Well yes. You are a live example that stupid people still have the right to think and express idiocy as long as it doesn’t threaten the state.

That's hilarious coming from kommandant kukoo.

 

[Musburger1]

Nobody wants to discuss this with you because your positions are retarded.

Apparently you do.

First Iraq is far better than when Hussein was in power.

From whose perspective?
From the US perspective, Iraq is now influenced by Iran. The two countries are expanding bilateral trade. Iraq is on good terms with Assad and will soon be on better terms with Russia.
From the Iraq perspective, our involvement brought that country massive poverty and loss of life. It also led to the formation of ISIS and civil war. Yes, I'm sure they all feel much better off now.

... And last how do you even compare Venezuela to this other countries as far as how we are involved. We are leading from where we sit.

How do I compare the involvement with Venezuela to the fiascoes in the Middle East we started? Well, far starters, this one has the potential to be even worse. The US has been preparing for regime change at least sense 2012 (Political Unrest in Venezuela). Even with nearly 7 years of planning, its a clown operation run by thugs masquerading as patriotic Americans.

Trump's first move was to name an oil man as Secretary of State. Surely, that move was because Tillerson's expertise is dealing with humanitarian issues and diplomacy.

Second, the US has sent Pence to lobby the fascist, right-wing crazy leaders in Brazil and Colombia to use their military as cannon fodder for the US should a military intervention be necessary to steal the Venezuelan resources. The Brazilian military won't go for it, and Colombia has so many internal problems, they can't deal with their own country, much less go to war with a neighbor.

So the US is likely going to have to do this own their own. The hope was they could bribe the Venezuelan military leaders to deliver the goods, but instead, the Venezuelan military leaders fooled the amateurs (Abrams and cast) leaving Guido stranded outside an airbase and having to hide out in an embassy with egg on his face.

For you to be the party of humanity, you don’t give a **** about the starving people. You’d rather look the other way and argue that Rd not happening.

There is plenty of food in Venezuela. There is a shortage of money, and thus the inability to purchase it. And you know what? Sanctions are a major contributor to the economic problems. So if the humanitarian US government ended the sanctions, any problems with hunger would be much less. But then, you have to remember this is the same group of democracy loving people that give blow jobs to the king of Saudi Arabia and encourage them to commit genocide on the people in Yemen who are really starving. How much do you care about them? Hypocrite.

 

[Musburger1]

 

[I35]

Apparently you do.

From whose perspective?
From the US perspective, Iraq is now influenced by Iran. The two countries are expanding bilateral trade. Iraq is on good terms with Assad and will soon be on better terms with Russia.
From the Iraq perspective, our involvement brought that country massive poverty and loss of life. It also led to the formation of ISIS and civil war. Yes, I'm sure they all feel much better off now.

How do I compare the involvement with Venezuela to the fiascoes in the Middle East we started? Well, far starters, this one has the potential to be even worse. The US has been preparing for regime change at least sense 2012 (Political Unrest in Venezuela). Even with nearly 7 years of planning, its a clown operation run by thugs masquerading as patriotic Americans.

Trump's first move was to name an oil man as Secretary of State. Surely, that move was because Tillerson's expertise is dealing with humanitarian issues and diplomacy.

Second, the US has sent Pence to lobby the fascist, right-wing crazy leaders in Brazil and Colombia to use their military as cannon fodder for the US should a military intervention be necessary to steal the Venezuelan resources. The Brazilian military won't go for it, and Colombia has so many internal problems, they can't deal with their own country, much less go to war with a neighbor.

So the US is likely going to have to do this own their own. The hope was they could bribe the Venezuelan military leaders to deliver the goods, but instead, the Venezuelan military leaders fooled the amateurs (Abrams and cast) leaving Guido stranded outside an airbase and having to hide out in an embassy with egg on his face.
There is plenty of food in Venezuela. There is a shortage of money, and thus the inability to purchase it. And you know what? Sanctions are a major contributor to the economic problems. So if the humanitarian US government ended the sanctions, any problems with hunger would be much less. But then, you have to remember this is the same group of democracy loving people that give blow jobs to the king of Saudi Arabia and encourage them to commit genocide on the people in Yemen who are really starving. How much do you care about them? Hypocrite.

You just keep believing what you think is true. Nobody here believes any of the myths you spew.

 

[Musburger1]

You just keep believing what you think is true. Nobody here believes any of the myths you spew.

Most of the German citizens bought into the propaganda their leadership fed them. We’re no different. You are just part of the herd. The cliff awaits you.

 

[Musburger1]

Hear no evil,
See no evil,
Speak no evil.

War criminals are in charge.

US State Department publishes, then deletes sadistic Venezuela hit list boasting of economic ruin

 

[Monahorns]

Oh hell, I forgot we wanted to win talking points. Let 'em starve.

That is a very disturbing attitude toward humans.

 

[iatrogenic]

That's why I wrote it Monahorns. You mentioned removing talking points. Who gives a sh-t about talking points when people are starving and the current dictator is preventing aid from entering the country? Why even mention it?

 

[Monahorns]

I didn't know Maduro was preventing aid from entering Venezuela. I thought the US was doing that through sanctions. Either way, I don't think sending the US military in will solve the problem. Trump campaigned on doing the opposite anyway.

 

[I35]

A quick history review of Venezuela

1992: Venezuela became the 3rd riches country in the Western Hemisphere.

2001: Venezuela voted for a socialist President to address “income inequality”

2004: Private Healthcare is completely socialized

2007: All higher education becomes free.

2009: socialist banned private ownership of guns

2012: Bernie Sanders said “Venezuelans are living the American Dream better than the Americans.”

2014: Opposition Leaders are imprisoned.

2016: Food Shortage becomes widespread

2017: Constitution and elections suspended

2019: Venezuelans Massacred by their own government, civil war begins.

THIS IS SOCIALISM!!!