Venezuelan Update (Florida Maquis)

Do I think Maduro is the right guy? Well, he was elected. Twice. So was Trump. Probably neither is the “right guy” for each respective government, but it’s none of the US business who the right guy is to govern another country. To arbitrarily name a puppet as leader of another country is 180 degrees opposite of democracy. The US has zero respect for the sovereignty of other nations and zero respect for law; both international law and domestic law. We are governed by thugocracy..
 
Musburger1 said:
Do I think Maduro is the right guy? Well, he was elected. Twice. So was Trump. Probably neither is the “right guy” for each respective government, but it’s none of the US business who the right guy is to govern another country. To arbitrarily name a puppet as leader of another country is 180 degrees opposite of democracy. The US has zero respect for the sovereignty of other nations and zero respect for law; both international law and domestic law. We are governed by thugocracy..
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WOW!!! You are comparing Maduro and Trump as equal? That’s crazy talk. Trump came in and has turned America around to a big time boost to the economy that was much needed. The American people are flourishing. Maduro is starving the people of Venezuela. Yes America has endorsed a guy they would like to see as their leader. But there will be an opposition candidate and the people of Venezuela will have a choice. But any country that is in that situation would be smart to have a candidate that backed by the US, because they will be well served if they do. It’s better to have a president backed by the US vs who the other guy is backed by, which is Cuba and Russia. Right now Maduro is hiding at the Cuba HQ’s in a bunker. Why is he there? Because he has lost half of his private army and two of his top four guys have jumped ship. So he’s now depending on the Cuba officials for protection. Needing Cuba of all countries for help is pretty telling who Maduro is.
 
I35 said:
WOW!!! You are comparing Maduro and Trump as equal? That’s crazy talk. Trump came in and has turned America around to a big time boost to the economy that was much needed. The American people are flourishing. Maduro is starving the people of Venezuela. Yes America has endorsed a guy they would like to see as their leader. But there will be an opposition candidate and the people of Venezuela will have a choice. But any country that is in that situation would be smart to have a candidate that backed by the US, because they will be well served if they do. It’s better to have a president backed by the US vs who the other guy is backed by, which is Cuba and Russia. Right now Maduro is hiding at the Cuba HQ’s in a bunker. Why is he there? Because he has lost half of his private army and two of his top four guys have jumped ship. So he’s now depending on the Cuba officials for protection. Needing Cuba of all countries for help is pretty telling who Maduro is.
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You are a comedian.
 
Let me think.
A ruthless dictator backed by Russia China and Cuba
or a man backed and recognized as President by 57 ( so far) countries including USA.
 
I35 said:
That’s crazy talk. Trump came in and has turned America around to a big time boost to the economy that was much needed. The American people are flourishing.
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We need to understand a few things about economics. There is a strong correlation between GDP and government spending. This is why government is always hesitant to reduce spending. Under Trump, GDP has increased nicely while deficit spending has exploded. Trump has also pressure the Federal Reserve to further decrease interest rates (for the big banks) to stimulate demand. This is desperation; more kicking the can down the road. If credit and/or spending is cut, the economy tumbles. This is what the US is doing to countries whose policy we oppose. That is, use our financial influence to cut off credit and in many cases make it impossible for those governments to spend. Financial warfare.

But even with the increase in employment and GDP, the gains have skewed to the wealthy; hence only a minority of our population has benefited from the Trump deficit fueled expansion. The day of reckoning awaits at some point ahead.
 
Interesting Professor. Exactly how much gain has benefitted each member of the population? You can break it in quartiles if you want, or any other manner that makes sense.

I'm concerned, based on your insightful and reasoned "day of reckoning" prediction, that we will turn into a shi-hole country like Russia. We need to take the steps to slow our certain demise.
 
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Musburger1 said:
We need to understand a few things about economics. There is a strong correlation between GDP and government spending. This is why government is always hesitant to reduce spending. Under Trump, GDP has increased nicely while deficit spending has exploded. Trump has also pressure the Federal Reserve to further decrease interest rates (for the big banks) to stimulate demand. This is desperation; more kicking the can down the road. If credit and/or spending is cut, the economy tumbles. This is what the US is doing to countries whose policy we oppose. That is, use our financial influence to cut off credit and in many cases make it impossible for those governments to spend. Financial warfare.

But even with the increase in employment and GDP, the gains have skewed to the wealthy; hence only a minority of our population has benefited from the Trump deficit fueled expansion. The day of reckoning awaits at some point ahead.
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I really don’t have time for this ****. Ok the interest rate was never raised under Obama because the economy was at such a slow growth it would have affected it. It was raised once under Trump and it had a short term affect but it didn’t take long to get back to business as usual. I’m guessing it will be raised again not too far in the future. The GDP never got over 3% for the year under Obama. The first time ever a President that didn’t. Obama said 1.5% GDP is the new norm :yikes: .

But I’m not sure what you mean by “exploded” describing Trumps spending compared to Obamas spending. They are pretty much on pace at the same rate. But the big difference is Obama was investing that deficit spending on the study of black birds and Solyndra and Trump is investing it in job creating jobs. How does the study of black birds create new jobs? Solyndra Obama stated was the future. Really? It went bankrupted 6 months after he visited the plant. That was $500 million out the window.

No way we are even close to where we are now if Obama was still President. The stock market is an indicator of the confidence in the economy. Because it’s a gamble. So that’s why you see the difference in record breaking highs in the stock market. I believe Trump has broken the record 90 something times.

Just don’t sound foolish like Joe Biden who claimed nobody is feeling it when under Trump. At one point under Obama it was minus $5000 per house hold on average per year. It’s only gone up under Trump.

But this topic is about Maduro and the chaos he has put his country in. It’s a major crisis of his doing.
 
Not to derail this fine thread on how wonderful Maduro is but this
"But even with the increase in employment and GDP, the gains have skewed to the wealthy; hence only a minority of our population has benefited from the Trump deficit fueled expansion." is pure D bs
and you know it Mus.
 
I35 said:
I really don’t have time for this ****. Ok the interest rate was never raised under Obama because the economy was at such a slow growth it would have affected it. It was raised once under Trump and it had a short term affect but it didn’t take long to get back to business as usual. I’m guessing it will be raised again not too far in the future. The GDP never got over 3% for the year under Obama. The first time ever a President that didn’t. Obama said 1.5% GDP is the new norm :yikes: .

But I’m not sure what you mean by “exploded” describing Trumps spending compared to Obamas spending. They are pretty much on pace at the same rate. But the big difference is Obama was investing that deficit spending on the study of black birds and Solyndra and Trump is investing it in job creating jobs. How does the study of black birds create new jobs? Solyndra Obama stated was the future. Really? It went bankrupted 6 months after he visited the plant. That was $500 million out the window.

No way we are even close to where we are now if Obama was still President. The stock market is an indicator of the confidence in the economy. Because it’s a gamble. So that’s why you see the difference in record breaking highs in the stock market. I believe Trump has broken the record 90 something times.

Just don’t sound foolish like Joe Biden who claimed nobody is feeling it when under Trump. At one point under Obama it was minus $5000 per house hold on average per year. It’s only gone up under Trump.

But this topic is about Maduro and the chaos he has put his country in. It’s a major crisis of his doing.
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I'm not blaming Trump or Obama for the low interest rate. The problem is now systemic. The US simply can't carry the debt load at a high interest rate (Endgame: Starting In 2024, All US Debt Issuance Will Be Used To Pay For Interest On Debt).
"But the big difference is Obama was investing that deficit spending on the study of black birds and Solyndra and Trump is investing it in job creating jobs."​
While those Obama projects were wasteful, they are small potatoes in the scheme of things. Ridiculous levels of defense/intelligence/security spending, medicare/medicaid spending (a function of demographics), and social security outlays (also a function of demographics), is the root of the problem. You can increase tax rates by a high margin and reduce the debt hemorrhaging, but the economy would implode, so that's a no-go. At some point, either the defense spending or the entitlement spending will have to take an enormous hit. Either way, the result will be both an economic disaster and a political disaster when the day of reckoning arrives.

But this topic is about Maduro and the chaos he has put his country in. It’s a major crisis of his doing.
​
That's a political/media created meme that's been echoed for decades. But specifically with the case of Venezuela, here's the sequence.

1. Chavez led a revolution leading to social democracy (around 1999). The oil industry was nationalized and the profits went to the people rather than to major corporations. Big oil was kicked out.

2. By 2002, the US along with wealthy, angry, Venezuelan elites plotted a coup to kickout Chavez. The coup lasted less than 48 hours as the military and the population rescued Chavez.

3. Around 2014-2015, the US conspired with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to create a massive surplus of oil, dropping the price near 80%. Although this hurt oil producing countries including the Saudis as well as US shale producers, the aim was to cripple other oil producing economies such as Iran, Russia, and Venezuela. Those countries friendly to the US such as dictatorial Nigeria, were given loans so that they could keep afloat and maintain infrastructure through this time period. Countries that were not on the same page as the US (Russia, Iran, Venezueal) were hit with sanctions so that they could not maintain infrastructure and obtain loans that would carry them through. Obama actually declared Venezuela as a national security threat to the US. Justification? None given and no one asked for a reason.

4. In 2015, under pressure from US oil producers, Congress and Obama reversed a decades long ban of exporting oil produced in the US. Originally, the ban was put in place to protect the US consumer and US economy from oil shortages like those in the 70's and 80's resulting from Arab Gulf embargoes.

5. The US needed markets for oil. By shutting down markets from competitors (Iran and China), US producers could gain market share from Venezuela and Iran. Threats of sanctions for anyone doing business with these countries followed.

6. With artificially low oil prices and crippling sanctions, the Venezuelan economy began to spiral out of control. Naturally, the US doesn't want to be seen as the scapegoat, hence the allegations of corruptions and the meme "socialism always fails" are parroted around the clock. While there is corruption, much of it lies in the remaining old guard of elitists that never wanted Chavez to take power. Unlike Stalin and Castro, Chavez did not pursue a massive purge and open gulags. As a result, a strong opposition has been in place ever since.

7. Now the Neocons are attempting to use the same templates used so many times before; Maduro is a ruthless dictator who purposely steals from and starves his people; socialism fails every time its tried; it's the US duty to free the people (by plotting a violent coup, depriving the population of medicine, and robbing the government of their assets necessary to support the population).

Only a complete dupe buys the nonsense spouted out by Trump, Pence, Bolton, Abrams, Pompeo, and Rubio. There are a bunch of dupes. They never, ever learn.
 
Horn6721 said:
Not to derail this fine thread on how wonderful Maduro is but this
"But even with the increase in employment and GDP, the gains have skewed to the wealthy; hence only a minority of our population has benefited from the Trump deficit fueled expansion." is pure D bs
and you know it Mus.
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I'm trusting you can read graphs.

wage-inequality12-17.jpg


hourly-earnings2-18a.jpg



worker-share2-19a.jpg


wages-costs2-19.jpg
 
Mus, if you think about it just a little, all of your bitching and moaning basically answers the worldwide question, "Who's your daddy?"
 
Really what we are learning more than anything in Venezuela is that who has the guns has the power. With Maduro’s private army diminishing the power is slowly changing. Or at least it’s more proof why the right defends the second amendment.
 
I35 said:
Really what we are learning more than anything in Venezuela is that who has the guns has the power. With Maduro’s private army diminishing the power is slowly changing. Or at least it’s more proof why the right defends the second amendment.
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Private army? Are you referring to the 1.4 million armed citizens (Chavistas) who have pledged to protect the Constitution? This is similar to what the United States looked like in the late 1700’s. I’m not surprised you have a problem with that. Trump, the Neocons, the MSM, and corporate America now control a globalist, imperialist ideology. Most of the country has adopted this, although they are too ignorant to even realize it. That would apparently include yourself.
 
iatrogenic said:
In that sense, we are no different than Russia.
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You aren’t that far off the truth. The difference is in implementation. Russia is competing with the US/West. But Russia’s primary approach to economic expansion and gaining influence is through diplomacy and cooperation. The US has adopted policies of financial terror, bribery, and military force to maintain power.
 
Crimea and some Syrians may disagree with you on the argument of military force. Also, Russia is one of the most corrupt nations, so the bribery argument is weak. If Russia had the ability to commit "financial terror" they would certainly try that route.
 
iatrogenic said:
Crimea and some Syrians may disagree with you on the argument of military force. Also, Russia is one of the most corrupt nations, so the bribery argument is weak. If Russia had the ability to commit "financial terror" they would certainly try that route.
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When the US “rescued” Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, (failed to “rescue” Syria), hundreds of thousands were killed. When Russia “rescued” Crimea, nobody died. In fact the citizens overwhelmingly opted for a democratically held election, of which the great majority chose to be part of Russia.

As far as bribery, it’s been part of the US playbook for decades. Look at the billions of unaccountable dollars which disappeared in Iraq and Afghanistan? How much did Kharzai obscond with? Who has been held accountable?
 
Interesting. You forgot to mention the thousands killed in Syria by Russians. You also failed to mention that the Russian army invaded Crimea. How is it you always seem to forget the facts?
 
iatrogenic said:
Interesting. You forgot to mention the thousands killed in Syria by Russians. You also failed to mention that the Russian army invaded Crimea. How is it you always seem to forget the facts?
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No. You forgot the facts. The US through its terror backed allies invaded Syria. Russia merely defended a sovereign state at their request. In the process, Russian killed thousands of terrorists. Good riddance.

Russia did not “invade” Crimea. The troops were already legally there under treaty. And the securing of Crimea was accomplished without bloodshed. You sir, are a liar.
 
Mus, is actually right about US involvement in Syria. Obama gave Al-Qaeda weapons to attack Assad. They did and gained enough power to call themselves a State, hence ISIS. Then went back to Northern Iraq to take more land. Obama did a bad thing and Trump hasn't ended the bad thing yet even though he campaigned on it.

Bottomline is I wish we could all agree on 2 things. 1) Maduro is awful and he run his own country into the ground, 2) The US should leave them the hell alone to run their own affairs. They voted in Chavez and got Maduro whether they voted for him or not, but they are going to have to get themselves out of this.

Under this premise, the US government should drop all economic sanctions. US business and banks should be free to conduct business with Venezuela if they so choose. They won't because it will be a bad investment with little chance of success, but at least yahoos like Musberger would be down one talking point.
 
Monahorns said:
Mus, is actually right about US involvement in Syria. Obama gave Al-Qaeda weapons to attack Assad. They did and gained enough power to call themselves a State, hence ISIS. Then went back to Northern Iraq to take more land. Obama did a bad thing and Trump hasn't ended the bad thing yet even though he campaigned on it.

Bottomline is I wish we could all agree on 2 things. 1) Maduro is awful and he run his own country into the ground, 2) The US should leave them the hell alone to run their own affairs. They voted in Chavez and got Maduro whether they voted for him or not, but they are going to have to get themselves out of this.

Under this premise, the US government should drop all economic sanctions. US business and banks should be free to conduct business with Venezuela if they so choose. They won't because it will be a bad investment with little chance of success, but at least yahoos like Musberger would be down one talking point.
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A reasonable response. And we might as well apply it to Cuba as they are clearly under attack now too. Monahans, I’m going to link an article that argues the connection between Muellar’s exoneration of Trump with Trump’s betrayal on foreign policy. I’m interested in what you think of the case made in the article.
Tit for Tat? Why did Mueller let Trump off the hook?
 
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