Ukraine updates

[TaylorTRoom]

Musburger, do you really think this is about Russia? Really?
Russia is a nation with an economy the size of Florida or Texas (that it has so many more billionaires than either is very telling) with a ****** army (lots of nukes, though). Russia is a pissant nation.
This is about China, the real counter to the west.

 

[bystander]

The new paradigm is this:

Do we risk nuclear war to involve ourselves in historical disputes between cultures that have been aligned for years and years:

Ukraine
Taiwan

In other words, is it realpolitik time meaning we are wholly committed to Machiavellianism and for the greater good (no nukes) we just let Russia have their way because it's their cultural heart that is beating and we possibly provoked them with the NATO talk?

Regardless of what anyone thinks, we invaded two sovereign nations (Iraq - twice and Afghanistan). Did we have cause?

 

[TaylorTRoom]

You’ve got it wrong. We make Russia pay, Machiavellian-like fighting to the last Ukrainian, to deter China from taking Taiwan (who we rely on for chips). Russia is helping the cause by being so brutal. They are driving the west together.

Nobody is making Russia do anything. Russia is being who Russia is- a bully. They are clarifying the stakes for everyone. That’s why Sweden and Finland are joining NATO now.

 

[OUBubba]

How long until the impact of all of the global companies pulling out of Russia hits?

 

[Musburger1]

Musburger, do you really think this is about Russia? Really?
Russia is a nation with an economy the size of Florida or Texas (that it has so many more billionaires than either is very telling) with a ****** army (lots of nukes, though). Russia is a pissant nation.
This is about China, the real counter to the west.

Well of course it’s about China. Duh. But China’s future is wholly dependent on Russian energy and establishing a financial network independent of the current dollar system. It’s all connected. As far as GDP of Russia, it doesn’t matter. Russia is showing that its control of commodities (grains, minerals, energy, fertilizer) drastically effects the global economy. Going back to Macinder, Brezinski, and Kissinger, the US elite have recognized Russia’s importance. I’d have thought you’d be more knowledgeable about that.

 

[Musburger1]

How long until the impact of all of the global companies pulling out of Russia hits?

Hits whom?

Volodin stated that up to $500 billion worth of Western assets were blocked on the territory of the Russian Federation, which counterbalances the $300 billion of Russian reserves blocked in the West.

In the event of the confiscation of the property of Russian oligarchs in the West, Russia will begin to confiscate the property of Western businesses in Russia.

 

[OUBubba]

https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/stocks/604317/companies-pulled-out-of-russia

Talking about this.

 

[TaylorTRoom]

Russia has already confiscated 222 jet liners and biz jets leased from the west.

Of course, that means going forward, if they ever want to lease airplanes again, they get to pay a special price. Kind of like when a third world country declares its debt void- it gets a special interest rate when it wants to borrow again.

 

[Chop]

Well of course it’s about China. Duh. But China’s future is wholly dependent on Russian energy and establishing a financial network independent of the current dollar system. It’s all connected. As far as GDP of Russia, it doesn’t matter. Russia is showing that its control of commodities (grains, minerals, energy, fertilizer) drastically effects the global economy. Going back to Macinder, Brezinski, and Kissinger, the US elite have recognized Russia’s importance. I’d have thought you’d be more knowledgeable about that.

If they're smart, they'll build massive pipelines from W. Siberia to China. This brings the added benefit of an excuse to invade Kazakhstan (or wherever), because the Borats there somehow turned into "Nazis" and constitute an existential threat to Mother Russia.

 

[Musburger1]

https://www.kiplinger.com/investing/stocks/604317/companies-pulled-out-of-russia

Talking about this.

None of those companies chose to do business in Russia out of the need to be charitable, but to make a profit. They didn’t leave out of disgust, but rather because of pressure to adhere to sanctions. Sure, there is a hit to Russia’s economy, but none of these corporations are happy about the impact to their own bottom lines. As far as the exit of McDonald’s, it probably will result giving a positive boost to the general health of the population.

 

[Musburger1]

Russia has already confiscated 222 jet liners and biz jets leased from the west.

Of course, that means going forward, if they ever want to lease airplanes again, they get to pay a special price. Kind of like when a third world country declares its debt void- it gets a special interest rate when it wants to borrow again.

Going forward, I suspect their will be a western financial system (US, Europe, Japan, Australia), an eastern system (Russia, China, India, Iran. Central Asia). Africa, Middle East, and South American countries will play ball with both or choose according to how things play out. Globalization as it exists currently is coming to an end.

 

[Chop]

India straddles the fence. They have to make nice with Russia, for now at least, as they import oil, gas, and military weapons from Russia, and it will take time to switch over. But there's massive bad blood between India and China. Also, they've participated in joint naval exercises with us, so they've got a glimpse of what we can do. Not sure they want to end up on the wrong side of the US-Japan team in the future of the Pacific (and Indian) Oceans. To build a blue water navy, and a first rate high tech prosperous society, the US is the obvious ally. A long-standing "victim mentality" and bad blood with the British side (which includes us) is a big hang-up though.

And if you think our economy has fundamental problems, the Chinese's economic problems dwarf ours.

I bet India straddles the fence for as long as they can.

 

[Monahorns]

We make Russia pay, Machiavellian-like fighting to the last Ukrainian, to deter China from taking Taiwan (who we rely on for chips). Russia is helping the cause by being so brutal.

So brave of you to volunteer thousands or millions of Ukrainians to die for US foreign policy interests.

Nobody is making Russia do anything. Russia is being who Russia is- a bully. They are clarifying the stakes for everyone. That’s why Sweden and Finland are joining NATO now.

Russia is a bully. The West should be negotiating a peace that doesn't endanger all Ukrainians or even the world. Eastern Europe should create their own security organization to protect themselves. Russia is no threat to the US or Western Europe for that matter. The small Eastern European countries feel threatened, so they should protect themselves.

I personally don't think Russia is ever going to invade Sweden or even Poland. It would happen most likely as a spill over from the current Russia-Ukraine war. But assuming that gets resolved, I see nothing to convince me that Russia is trying to take over Eastern Europe. We have also seen how weak their military is. They have little to no ability to project power outside of their borders. What is the point of all this talk of extending this war or escalating? I don't get it.

 

[Monahorns]

How long until the impact of all of the global companies pulling out of Russia hits?

I have to think it has already hit. Those civilians who lost employment are suffering. The Russian state and oligarchs aren't. They probably never will. Not in any way that will change their actions.

 

[Musburger1]

I personally don't think Russia is ever going to invade Sweden or even Poland. It would happen most likely as a spill over from the current Russia-Ukraine war. But assuming that gets resolved, I see nothing to convince me that Russia is trying to take over Eastern Europe. We have also seen how weak their military is. They have little to no ability to project power outside of their borders. What is the point of all this talk of extending this war or escalating? I don't get it.

If Finland and Sweden stay out of NATO, they are safe. If they follow the path of the Baltics and Ukraine, they make themselves a target.

The Russian military is quite strong. In terms of weapons, they have advanced beyond the US in terms of both EW (electronic warfare) and hypersonic missiles. But because of population, Russia does not have the numerical manpower to occupy countries and project power on a global scale. The idea that Russia wants to invade and conquer Europe is preposterous.

 

[OUBubba]

The idea that Russia wants to invade and conquer Europe is preposterous.

They should convey that to their army that is currently in a sovereign nation destroying cities and killing civilians.

 

[TaylorTRoom]

Russia is not strong in EW. Quite the opposite. The NATO supplied EW is trouncing them.

 

[Monahorns]

Ukraine isn't doing as well as you are led to believe. Donbas is going to fall to Russia at some point relatively soon. How soon? Who knows. Weeks?

 

[TaylorTRoom]

So, 10 weeks in, Donbas, the “breakaway republic” (need extra scare quotes around republic), populated by Russian speakers ready to join mother Russia, will be taken from Ukraine? Are you impressed by that?

 

[Musburger1]

So, 10 weeks in, Donbas, the “breakaway republic” (need extra scare quotes around republic), populated by Russian speakers ready to join mother Russia, will be taken from Ukraine? Are you impressed by that?

For eight years the US and NATO have been arming, training, and building a Ukraine army to NATO standards for the purpose of taking back the two republics. This army is very different than the one that was routed eight years ago. Even so, the army is rapidly being destroyed. That’s the truth. The MSM is feeding you lies.

 

[OUBubba]

So, 10 weeks in, Donbas, the “breakaway republic” (need extra scare quotes around republic), populated by Russian speakers ready to join mother Russia, will be taken from Ukraine? Are you impressed by that?

So we speak English. Do we belong to England. Mexico (and Texas) use Spanish. Should Spain assert control?

 

[TaylorTRoom]

Not my point. The point is, Russia claimed those areas were full of people who wanted to be Russians, and were being oppressed/suppressed by an illegitimate Ukraine government, and would welcome Russian intervention to save them. In actuality- not so much.

 

[Mr. Deez]

PayPal screwing with pro-Russian media figures. Link. As most know, I'm totally unsympathetic to the agenda of the people mentioned in the article. I'm solidly on the side of Ukraine, pro-NATO, hostile to the Putin regime, and think Julian Assange is generally a bad guy.

However, one can unhesitatingly disagree with these guys (and Monahorns and Musburger) and still be outraged at the idea that a bank or financial institution like PayPal would screw with them for their speech and treat them like terrorists. It is an infinitely bigger danger to Western freedom and democracy than anything Vladimir Putin is doing, and it's not even close.

I know some may point out that in the past, we have limited certain freedoms and liberties. Sometimes those were defensible. Sometimes not. But even when they were defensible, they were typically done in times of objectively determined emergency such as a declared war, which has a clearly-defined beginning and end. None of that is taking place now, and it's baffling to me that there are significant numbers of Americans who don't see how dangerous this is.

 

[Musburger1]

Not my point. The point is, Russia claimed those areas were full of people who wanted to be Russians, and were being oppressed/suppressed by an illegitimate Ukraine government, and would welcome Russian intervention to save them. In actuality- not so much.

Yes and no. The political organization within local governance (mayors, police, and military) had been restructured and strengthened over the last eight years to become loyal to the regime. Russian intelligence failed badly. As a result in the first few weeks the Russians entered lightly without cover, were ambushed, and suffered significant losses. Putin fired some 150 FSB personnel in response and was forced to change tactics. It happens. Remember Iraq? And more recently Afghanistan?

But the population in the South and East is very anti-Zelensky and greatly resents the harsh anti-Russian measures in place that have been enforced by the Banderist regime. It’s evident in the number of people that have been evacuated to Russia and their comments about the Azov mistreatment and war crimes committed by these Nazis.

True success will be measured in the aftermath. Will the population accept the new governance or will insurgencies undermine it like in Iraq and Afghanistan?

 

[Horn6721]

It will depend on how the authorities treat the populace

 

[TaylorTRoom]

Someone in a liberal democracy can be vehemently opposed to the current government and yet still not desire another nation to come in and take over. I suspect the number of Ukrainians desirous of becoming Russians is much smaller than you would like it to be.

 

[Musburger1]

Someone in a liberal democracy can be vehemently opposed to the current government and yet still not desire another nation to come in and take over. I suspect the number of Ukrainians desirous of becoming Russians is much smaller than you would like it to be.

Ukraine IS NOT a liberal democracy. You are talking about a regime that has eliminated political opposition, eliminated all media dissent and consolidated what is left. Ukraine has been and continues to be controlled by powerful oligarchs. Ukraine and Russia were both controlled by oligarchs in the 1990's. Ukraine still is - but has enlisted Banderist enforcers behind the ruling class. Russia still has oligarchs but their role in running the government has been greatly diminished.

And the US? Big pharma (Pfizer, Moderna, etc.) the MIC (Lockheed, Ratheon, and powerful Neocons), Social media (Facebook, Twitter, Google), Amazon, Tesla, and the media are controlled by a handful of multi-billionaires. These people basically choose who will represent the two parties in various elections and how they will vote once they are in office - how the money is spent and where. The US is rapidly evolving into something most citizens don't even recognize. Just take a look at the people currently "in charge" of the country. Good grief.

P.S. And what about the EU? This is an unelected body that basically dictates to Europe what globalist policies each country must enforce. A totally corrupt and incompetent structure.

 

[TaylorTRoom]

It will depend on how the authorities treat the populace

I think it’s more complex than that. It also depends upon how those across the border, not under Russian control, fare. If they are free and prosperous, no Ukrainians are going to be happy under Russian control, unless they are equally free and prosperous.

Musburger calls this a conflict of powers and I believe he is wrong. It is part of a larger, century old conflict of ideas- liberalism vs. progressivism, free markets vs. planned economies, libertarianism vs. authoritarianism. Lines get blurred, because these same ideas are also competing within the individual nations, but this is what is being contested.

 

[Musburger1]

I think it’s more complex than that. It also depends upon how those across the border, not under Russian control, fare. If they are free and prosperous, no Ukrainians are going to be happy under Russian control, unless they are equally free and prosperous.

Musburger calls this a conflict of powers and I believe he is wrong. It is part of a larger, century old conflict of ideas- liberalism vs. progressivism, free markets vs. planned economies, libertarianism vs. authoritarianism. Lines get blurred, because these same ideas are also competing within the individual nations, but this is what is being contested.

As you know, I disagree with the characterization that the West represents free markets and libertarianism; not any more. Now the West represents globalism and is rapidly moving toward a planned economy ran in a totalitarian manner - the very things you say you detest. When you think of Klaus Schab, the WEF, etc. you don't have to go any further than Joe Biden, Obama, and the US Department of State. In Canada, simply look at Trudeau and his actions. You are viewing the US in rose colored glasses. Yes the structure for a liberal democracy was laid down a long time ago, but has just about been dismantled.

 

[Horn6721]

Mus
I agree but many are still fighting and there is still enough of us understanding what is real and in Dallas happening.