Trump!!!
- Thread starter snek
- Start date
I had similar thoughts. Trump has some silly positions but Sander's positions are downright suicidal. One guy wants to build a wall and the other one wants to jump off of it! Yet Trump is vilified (which I am ok with) while Sander's is a lovable little Socialist teddy bear. I could understand if Sanders was some fringe candidate but he is actually getting a larger percentage of the Democratic primary vote than Trump is getting of the Republican vote. Very puzzling indeed.
Not quite apples to apples...after all, Trump is splitting votes with several other candidates while those in the Democratic primaries have a choice between Sanders and, err...no viable choice. Granted, the pool of people Trump splits with is getting smaller and things get interesting if/when Kasich and Carson finally decide to vote themselves off of the island...
SuperTuesday results should be interesting to watch with regard to numbers...
It's gullible to vote third party when one of the nominees is truly better than the other. If it ends up being Trump v. Hillary, then I don't have a vote to throw away. All I have is my own personal integrity, which I can preserve by voting for someone other than Trump or Hillary.
I voted for Romney in 2012. I don't expect perfection. However, the root of our disagreement is that you accept Trump as a less-than-perfect but reasonably authentic candidate. I completely reject that premise. I think he's a blatant fraud whose true intentions are totally unknown by all of us. When you vote for him, you have absolutely no idea what you're voting for.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
We really need a hammer and nail icon.
With that said, it sounds like zork is voting for "anything but Hillary". It could be Jeffrey Dalmer running on the "R" ticket but I'm not sure it would matter.
zork
2,500+ Posts
Dalmer was a convicted felon. Will Hillary be also? Should she be if she mishandled 2000+ pieces of classified information? Pardon her, fine. But not pursuing the conviction is unconcionable and is why the Democrats should be voted out of all offices that are not denouncing the lack of judicial correctness done in their name.
You're changing the subject.
Agreed, but my secondary point was that Sanders is a viable candidate who is getting a significant portion of the vote - certainly not a fringe candidate polling in the single digits. I would also argue (or at least holding out hope) that the most of the voters that would vote for Trump are already supporting Trump. As other candidates drop-out, I am not expecting much of that support to go to Trump. But I could be wrong.
Really doesn't change what my original post was about. I am far more concerned about the voters supporting Sanders than I am about the voters supporting Trump.
zork
2,500+ Posts
In the past I have said my front runner was Walker. I have mentioned, only briefly as my jury is still completely out on this one, that I have an affinity for Cruz. Jeb never got traction but I would have voted for him but didn't think he would beat Hillary so I never gave him any support.(not that my support matters fwiw)
Then the enigma that is Trump started and still gains more and more numbers if they are to be believed. Go back to the early July posts on Trump. My first impression when he announced was that he was a plant by Hillary for some quid quo pro back by her administration or the Democrats somehow in NY after he torpedoed the R's. Now maybe he thinks he will win? Who knows.
He is not a conservative and is far from clear at this point on what he will do as President. He has mentioned several times he will enforce the law with respect to immigration and other things.
That is a huge win for me. I despise the current lack of law enforcement and willy nilly changing of precedent on how any number of rules or laws are now selectively, if at all, enforced.(for reference on just one sub-topic: https://www.google.com/#q=illegals+allowed+to+vote )
Trump says he will enforce the law. That is big enough for me to overlook his abortion stance which is still the law as it is now.(meaning no change perhaps but of course no gain towards saving the viable fetii)
I have heard rumors that he will be a single payer player with respect to the changing of Obamacare. That is not thrilling to me but as a businessman maybe his way will be favorable to business in some ways that perhaps the non-business person Hillary or for sure Sanders would implement changes.
There are other topics but those are what I am thinking about. The link about Cuban not worrying about Trump if he were elected is good.
Trump will have to work deals to get things done if he is elected. That will mean compromising and working within the law to get what he can do accomplished.
Anything will be better than what has been happening the opposite for the last X amount of years of encouraging law breaking and lack of compliance towards regulating who is entering the country.
Sure, I also hope Hillary is indicted, convicted, then pardoned.
Edit: btw, the total capitulation by the establishment Republicans on virtually every topic for the foreseeable past is also something that has Trump, someone who is seen with balls, getting support for some hope at stemming the tide of the past 7 ish years.
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If Kasich won't back out, even though polls show Trump beating him in his own state, then he needs to fall on his sword and stop with the nice guy persona.
SOMEONE needs to call out Trump. The most baffling and agonizingly frustrating part of all the debates, commercials, interviews so far, is that no one, with the exception of Jeb Bush has really, truly had the courage to take Trump on, and his meekness made it totally ineffective. Carson, not a chance in hell he could do it.
Trump has so many liabilities. Pick one. "I love veterans" Trump, why did you dodge the draft many times by claiming you had flat feet? "I am the best businessman in the universe? Trump, why have you declared bankruptcy x number of times? If in fact you are a great businessman, that number should be much lower. How are you losing money on your casino in Vegas, for example? "I will bring business back to the USA". Trump, why are clothes from your own brand, and your daughter's brand, made in Taiwan?
"I'm going to build a wall." Trump, explain how/why many buildings/golf courses and a Trump University weren't built? "I'm for the little guy". Trump, lets talk about all of your lawsuits. Eminent domain is needed at times, but, as one example, why tear up the pristine coastline of Scotland (when no one wanted it built) and one lone Scot held out against you. What did you and your attorneys do to that man? How do the Scots feel about you? "Women love me". Trump, why is it that you trade in wives for a younger, hotter version? "I'm not a racist." Trump, why have you said, for example, that Mexicans are bad? "I am one of the richest men in the world." Trump, you haven't produced a tax return for the public since 2011. When people ask to see it, you say you will show it when the "time is right". What are you hiding?
I could go on and on with multiple examples in each category, but I think the point is made. He has vulnerabilities on all sides, and NO ONE is taking advantage of even one.
I am ashamed to admit that I watched many seasons of "The Apprentice". From watching him on that show alone, I can speak to the fact that he is an incredible misogynist. Why doesn't someone make a campaign ad that shows him asking one of the "celebrity" Apprentice females to "Stand up and twirl around so I can see all of you." It wouldn't be hard, he said very inappropriate comments almost every episode. I won't make judgments about his odd way of thinking about who would be fired each episode, (because-reality TV!)-but if his thought process then was even a tenth of how he truly thinks, there is no method to his madness.
Trump reminds me so much of my father in his last couple of years. He was descending in to dementia, but his mind was sharp enough to "turn it on" for his physicians. He could talk them in to thinking he was just fine, and I was over-reacting to his behaviors. You couldn't ever have a reasonable discussion with him either, he would over-talk you, start shouting, and say things that were absolutely preposterous.
I know if someone mans up and takes Trump on, they will get very, very muddy in the process. I hate that, I honestly do. I hate that someone decent will have to get dirty and say negative (but truthful) things about Trump. I absolutely acknowledge that it will be an epic and shameful display of shouting, interrupting, claims of lying, (I lived this on a micro level) I did it, because my older brother and younger sister would not. They were the chuckling Cruz, "oh, that's just Donald". But, I loved my mother fiercely, and I understood that to help her, someone would have to be the bad guy.
Someone needs to love the USA enough to be the bad guy. In the end, it may not matter. It didn't with my mom and dad. But, I know I did everything I could to try and prevent what happened to my parents, and as suck as it was, this fact helps a bit. (sorry to bring in personal experience, but it is eerily familiar)
Our country is on the verge of a disaster, being the laughingstock of the world, putting a man in charge of a fractured nation. Whoever gets the job will walk in to the office at a time when Americans have never been more angry. If Bernie loses, expect an eruption from his supporters over the super delegates. If Hilary wins, expect an eruption from the 80% of Americans who find her untrustworthy at best. Cruz winning will anger even many Republicans due to his hard line stands. The person who inherits this mess must not be someone who fans the wildfire that is blazing. Trump/Hilary almost tie for the absolute worst choice to be that person in my opinion.
SOMEONE needs to call out Trump. The most baffling and agonizingly frustrating part of all the debates, commercials, interviews so far, is that no one, with the exception of Jeb Bush has really, truly had the courage to take Trump on, and his meekness made it totally ineffective. Carson, not a chance in hell he could do it.
Trump has so many liabilities. Pick one. "I love veterans" Trump, why did you dodge the draft many times by claiming you had flat feet? "I am the best businessman in the universe? Trump, why have you declared bankruptcy x number of times? If in fact you are a great businessman, that number should be much lower. How are you losing money on your casino in Vegas, for example? "I will bring business back to the USA". Trump, why are clothes from your own brand, and your daughter's brand, made in Taiwan?
"I'm going to build a wall." Trump, explain how/why many buildings/golf courses and a Trump University weren't built? "I'm for the little guy". Trump, lets talk about all of your lawsuits. Eminent domain is needed at times, but, as one example, why tear up the pristine coastline of Scotland (when no one wanted it built) and one lone Scot held out against you. What did you and your attorneys do to that man? How do the Scots feel about you? "Women love me". Trump, why is it that you trade in wives for a younger, hotter version? "I'm not a racist." Trump, why have you said, for example, that Mexicans are bad? "I am one of the richest men in the world." Trump, you haven't produced a tax return for the public since 2011. When people ask to see it, you say you will show it when the "time is right". What are you hiding?
I could go on and on with multiple examples in each category, but I think the point is made. He has vulnerabilities on all sides, and NO ONE is taking advantage of even one.
I am ashamed to admit that I watched many seasons of "The Apprentice". From watching him on that show alone, I can speak to the fact that he is an incredible misogynist. Why doesn't someone make a campaign ad that shows him asking one of the "celebrity" Apprentice females to "Stand up and twirl around so I can see all of you." It wouldn't be hard, he said very inappropriate comments almost every episode. I won't make judgments about his odd way of thinking about who would be fired each episode, (because-reality TV!)-but if his thought process then was even a tenth of how he truly thinks, there is no method to his madness.
Trump reminds me so much of my father in his last couple of years. He was descending in to dementia, but his mind was sharp enough to "turn it on" for his physicians. He could talk them in to thinking he was just fine, and I was over-reacting to his behaviors. You couldn't ever have a reasonable discussion with him either, he would over-talk you, start shouting, and say things that were absolutely preposterous.
I know if someone mans up and takes Trump on, they will get very, very muddy in the process. I hate that, I honestly do. I hate that someone decent will have to get dirty and say negative (but truthful) things about Trump. I absolutely acknowledge that it will be an epic and shameful display of shouting, interrupting, claims of lying, (I lived this on a micro level) I did it, because my older brother and younger sister would not. They were the chuckling Cruz, "oh, that's just Donald". But, I loved my mother fiercely, and I understood that to help her, someone would have to be the bad guy.
Someone needs to love the USA enough to be the bad guy. In the end, it may not matter. It didn't with my mom and dad. But, I know I did everything I could to try and prevent what happened to my parents, and as suck as it was, this fact helps a bit. (sorry to bring in personal experience, but it is eerily familiar)
Our country is on the verge of a disaster, being the laughingstock of the world, putting a man in charge of a fractured nation. Whoever gets the job will walk in to the office at a time when Americans have never been more angry. If Bernie loses, expect an eruption from his supporters over the super delegates. If Hilary wins, expect an eruption from the 80% of Americans who find her untrustworthy at best. Cruz winning will anger even many Republicans due to his hard line stands. The person who inherits this mess must not be someone who fans the wildfire that is blazing. Trump/Hilary almost tie for the absolute worst choice to be that person in my opinion.
This is what we haven't had in our Govt and why imho we are where we are and why there is support for Trump. Right, wrong, or just stupid, people are looking for an outsider to change things.
The keyword is "says." Why in the hell do you believe anything he says? He hasn't shown any consistency on hardly any issue in the last 20 years. He has been all over the map. You don't have any idea if he'll enforce the immigration laws. That's not an attack on you. I don't know either, but I'm not going to presume his honesty when he has shown repeatedly that his views on issues blow around in the wind to suit his convenience.
As for the immigration issue itself, we haven't enforced the law in decades. In fact, the current president, if anything, enforces it more than many of his predecessors have. That doesn't mean he's handling it well. It's just an indication of how poorly it has been handled for so long. Because we haven't enforced it in decades, millions have come into the country illegally but with our acquiescence and sometimes with our tacit invitation and laid down roots. They've had children and grandchildren who are US citizens, speak our language, go to our colleges, fight and die for our country, etc. To say it's out of hand is an understatement. It has been out of hand for 30 years.
"Enforcing the laws" means deporting over ten million people whose presence we never cared about before. You may like that in theory, but when you see armed Gestapo-like federal agents storming apartment complexes on Rundberg Lane and on East Riverside and pulling bricklayer Antonio and his hotel maid wife Maria out of their beds and arresting them while their US citizen children are screaming in fear, you may not see it the same way anymore. The public certainly won't, and it shouldn't, especially when they see it happen hundreds of thousands or millions of times. We're a better people than that.
As a practical matter, the law is not enforceable anymore, and we need to change it to account for the reality we've created for the last 30 years. That doesn't mean we open the doors to anybody. In fact, we need to be closing the doors to stop the tide, but it does mean accepting that fact that we're not going to deport everybody that's here illegally. It's just not going to happen, and I don't care who the president is. The public won't tolerate it, and Congress won't fund it.
Not thrilling to you? It's an anathema to conservative principles. A single-payer system would effectively nationalize the health insurance industry. If you're willing to go there, then you're in Bernie Sanders territory, and you're looking at increasing federal spending in the $1.8 - $2.5T range each year. (For point of reference, the US military's budget is only about $610 billion, so you're adding 3 or 4 times that much to the federal budget.) You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip, so middle class and poor people aren't going to pay for that. It's going to come from people with money, and that means the government is going to take it out of your ***.
Trump is used to imposing his will by brute force - by throwing his weight and money around. What makes you think he'd respect our separation of powers system? He has never had to share power to that extent in his life.
Never say it can't get worse. It always can.
If she's really guilty, why the hell would you want her pardoned???
This is nonsense. What major policy victory has Obama gotten since the GOP took control of the House? Not one. What has happened to federal spending? It actually got cut - not a Washington cut, a real cut that lasted for several years. That almost never happens. Federal spending is just now catching up with 2011 levels (the last budget Democrats enacted). That doesn't sound like capitulation to me. That sounds like holding the line as well as they could.
Contrast that with Democrats taking control of Congress in 2007. Their entire rap was opposition to the Iraq War. Did they stop it? Nope. It raged on. In fact, they fully funded the troop surge. Did liberals freak out and call Nancy Pelosi a traitor or a "DINO?" No, they understood that there's only so much she could do with a Republican in the White House, rallied behind her, rallied around a Democratic candidate with broad appeal, and then they pushed their agenda. The GOP could learn from their example.
Back on Trump, let me close with this question. If Trump was a 17 year old guy, would you let him date your daughter? Would you let your wife work in his office? (By the way, before anyone remarks or thinks about remarking on this issue, I don't care if your wife looks like a pole-dancing porn star or if she weighs 400 pounds, the issue is the same.) If your answer to either of these questions is "Yes," then you're insane. If the answer is "No," then why would you trust him as your President?
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Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Careful, now you're talking like you support a "path to citizenship" or "amnesty" but that realistic option seems to be impossible to have a rational discussion around. Look no further than the blowback Rubio received when trying to tackle the issue. Now he's pivoted to the ambiguous "secure the border" before we address the 30M undocumented immigrants already here.
Sadly that is why my wife has not allowed me to put a sign up since Bush one.
Clean
5,000+ Posts
Apparently black people dressed up as KKK and carried pro-Trump signs at the Nevada caucus. The Dems must be getting worried.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...s-location-some-say-their-hands-give-it-away/
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...s-location-some-say-their-hands-give-it-away/
Speaking of the KKK . . .
It was only a matter of time before "The Duke" would chime in for The Donald.
zork
2,500+ Posts
Deez,
Obama was going to bring the world back to us. He was going to bring the races together. He was going to shut down Guantanamo. He won Iraq!(then lost it)
Politicians talk a lot. Trump talks a lot. Maybe I am projecting on him that he will enforce the law in whatever manner is possible. With a Republican House and Senate, perhaps, a so-called Republican Trump will have a much easier time getting his way than with the current Obama and Republican House and Senate. Wait? What did the Republicans fight out of the Obama/Democrat budget? It really doesn't matter at this point. Who knows since the press doesn't hold any candidate accountable anymore.
I do know Trump has lived in the private sector mostly succeeding but failing some too over 2.5 to 3.5 decades.(give or take when he was working with his father)
That is something I am giving credence to as opposed to the Hillary bandwagon of ****.(my opinion) Perot and Romney I thought would be good as well for that business aspect as well. So maybe Trump doesn't have a chance like neither of them ended up having.(for whatever reason)
I do believe, at the end of it all, the only candidate so far that has presented that has a chance to beat Hillary is Trump. It isn't pretty but is preferable at this point.(to me) Maybe something or someone else will come about in the next X amount of months before the conventions and the convictions.( crossing fingers for one in particular)
I'm no expert, far from a superpredator, and I never vote third party. Furthermore I generally pick Republican although I didn't vote for HW Bush to be re-elected due to "read my lips". Of course Perot ****** that up and allowed Clinton in the first time.(as Trump might let Hillary in if he is sandbagging or Perot-ing)
I don't think people will turn out for anyone on the R side at this point but Trump. Many will stay home but he will pull from disparate Democrats and Independents as well as Republicans. Trash him all you want. No skin off my back. He is bringing the numbers at this point. That may diminish over time?
Obama was going to bring the world back to us. He was going to bring the races together. He was going to shut down Guantanamo. He won Iraq!(then lost it)
Politicians talk a lot. Trump talks a lot. Maybe I am projecting on him that he will enforce the law in whatever manner is possible. With a Republican House and Senate, perhaps, a so-called Republican Trump will have a much easier time getting his way than with the current Obama and Republican House and Senate. Wait? What did the Republicans fight out of the Obama/Democrat budget? It really doesn't matter at this point. Who knows since the press doesn't hold any candidate accountable anymore.
I do know Trump has lived in the private sector mostly succeeding but failing some too over 2.5 to 3.5 decades.(give or take when he was working with his father)
That is something I am giving credence to as opposed to the Hillary bandwagon of ****.(my opinion) Perot and Romney I thought would be good as well for that business aspect as well. So maybe Trump doesn't have a chance like neither of them ended up having.(for whatever reason)
I do believe, at the end of it all, the only candidate so far that has presented that has a chance to beat Hillary is Trump. It isn't pretty but is preferable at this point.(to me) Maybe something or someone else will come about in the next X amount of months before the conventions and the convictions.( crossing fingers for one in particular)
I'm no expert, far from a superpredator, and I never vote third party. Furthermore I generally pick Republican although I didn't vote for HW Bush to be re-elected due to "read my lips". Of course Perot ****** that up and allowed Clinton in the first time.(as Trump might let Hillary in if he is sandbagging or Perot-ing)
I don't think people will turn out for anyone on the R side at this point but Trump. Many will stay home but he will pull from disparate Democrats and Independents as well as Republicans. Trash him all you want. No skin off my back. He is bringing the numbers at this point. That may diminish over time?
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Let me guess. You like Trump because he tells it like it is?
It scares me that common people, especially Rebublicans, cannot see through him. Good God, he childlessly attacked Hugh Hewitt who asked him a tough question.
Kasich was the adult in the room. He was often like a TV timeout for Trump. At one point, Trump was being pressed for actual details of his plan. Kasich demanded his time and saved him.
Funny how Trump will solve immigration, but is shown to have been a consistent abuser of illegal labor. Rubio exposed him effectively on the issue Trump's puppets love most.
I originally thought the tax return questions were just the every year political move. However, Trump is hiding something. Something was leaked, Romney agreed to float it and now Trump will be attacked.
Kasich was most presidential, but Rubio won the debate. Cruz did well. Trump lost the debate, but already has a blind following that will lead him to the nomination.
It scares me that common people, especially Rebublicans, cannot see through him. Good God, he childlessly attacked Hugh Hewitt who asked him a tough question.
Kasich was the adult in the room. He was often like a TV timeout for Trump. At one point, Trump was being pressed for actual details of his plan. Kasich demanded his time and saved him.
Funny how Trump will solve immigration, but is shown to have been a consistent abuser of illegal labor. Rubio exposed him effectively on the issue Trump's puppets love most.
I originally thought the tax return questions were just the every year political move. However, Trump is hiding something. Something was leaked, Romney agreed to float it and now Trump will be attacked.
Kasich was most presidential, but Rubio won the debate. Cruz did well. Trump lost the debate, but already has a blind following that will lead him to the nomination.
Clean
5,000+ Posts
The media has played up the KKK supporting Trump. In fact, my local online newspaper ran the story that Klansmen stumped for Trump in Nevada, but I never saw where they amended the story to disclose that the Klansmen were African-American, fake Klansmen! Puzzling!
The media didn't give a Shiite when the Black Panthers supported Obama to the extent of going to the polls and running white voters off back in '08. I'm getting a little sick of the double standard.
Kasich is my favorite candidate and damn it, I'm going to waste a vote in the Republican Primary on him. I don't like Trump much, but am unconvinced Cruz or Rubio would be any better. Love him or hate him, Trump can make a deal and get his way. Cruz would queer every deal, the thump his chest robustly afterwards. Rubio is a nice guy, but pretty much a handsome face and good deliverer of applause lines, kinda like the incumbent except from the opposite end of the political spectrum.
Zork, you're sorta all over the place here, so let me try to focus on electability. You think Trump presents the best chance to beat Hillary and that he'll pull from disparate Democrats and Independents. Most general election polls show Trump to be the weakest GOP candidate of those remaining. Of the GOP candidates, Kasich and Rubio poll the best. Link.
You have to keep in mind what the path to victory looks like. Running up the score with David Duke listeners in Alabama and Louisiana doesn't do any good. Trump needs to be able to win in places like Nevada, Colorado, Florida, Ohio, Florida, Virginia, etc. Trump may get some labor-oriented voters in the Rust Belt, and that's fine. However, he also loses a significant number of fiscal conservatives who aren't satisfied with mere smack talk. He'll add some to his coalition, but he'll throw many away. Furthermore, his inflammatory rhetoric is going to motivate Hispanics to turnout and vote against him. That may not cost him in places like Ohio, but it sure as hell will cost him in places like Colorado, Nevada, and Arizona.
Where Republicans have really hurt themselves is losing educated urban and inner-suburban white voters. These are areas that voted heavily for Reagan but now lean Democratic. Losing areas like this is what made once-red states like Virginia, Florida, and Colorado much tougher for the GOP to win. Losing areas like these are what turned states like California, Oregon, Washington, and New Jersey from purple to solid blue. Guys like Trump aren't going to attract these voters. He's going to repel them. You'll note in the link I posted that Trump trails Clinton in Virginia by 17 points. That's scary ****. You can't lose a swing state that badly.
One other thing, bear in mind that the Democrats aren't even running against Trump yet. He has mostly gotten soft treatment from the GOP opponents who are scared to piss off his supporters and from the media that wants him to be the nominee for ratings purposes. Look at how much one stupid comment hurt Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock back in 2012. Trump says something that stupid in almost every speech. The biggest challenge for Democrats will deciding what career-ending comments to start hitting him with. It's an almost inexhaustible supply. They'll hammer him, and the usual smack talk that has gotten GOP primary voters to laugh it all off probably won't work on guys like Seattle Husker, who's the kind of voter the GOP needs to be attracting if it wants to win this time.
No, I'm voting for Rubio or Kasich. Just calling it as it is. Read Peggy Noonan's article in WSJ today.
I don't plan to vote for Trump, but this guy says your wrong:
http://dailycaller.com/2016/02/24/p...s-of-president-trump-range-between-97-and-99/
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