Russia attacking Ukraine 2/16?
- Thread starter Seattle Husker
- Start date
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I haven't heard that. All I heard was neutral Ukraine and no missile launchers in Eastern Europe. I say we should call their bluff. Give them their requests. But if they ever go back on it, if they were bluffing, then unleash the dogs of hell on them.
The bigger point is that propaganda is going full steam ahead in both Ukraine and Russia to affect public opinion. We need to be skeptical about all of it.
I really don't agree with anything in this paragraph. If what you say is true about Putin's demands, it may just be a negotiating tactic. Ask for more than you know you can get to give room for negotiation. I think that is the best way to understand it.
We will never know since the account it came from does not believe in giving a full video.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Here is another example of an issue where I understand the rationale but don't think it justifies the action.
Ukraine's Regime Is Now Kidnapping Fathers for Military "Service" | Ryan McMaken
Collectivism vs. Natural Rights.
Ukraine's Regime Is Now Kidnapping Fathers for Military "Service" | Ryan McMaken
Collectivism vs. Natural Rights.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
I believe it was on Friday when Putin made these demands. By nearly any analysis, Zelensky is going a heck of a job in defending and supporting his country. One can surmise this is why Putin is demanding he be removed. It's also a non-starter for Ukraine. If the West were to orchestrate Zelensky's removal it would be a very dumb move if they want to keep Putin from installing his own puppet government.
Agreed.
I'm simply going off what he stated in his public statements. If it's a negotiating tactic it's a poor first salvo. Then again, I'm fairly convinced that Putin doesn't want to negotiate because for a man who puts great value on being respected and feared, to walk away from Ukraine now would undercut the perception others have of him. Based on his actions, Putin doesn't want anything less than a puppet government with Russia pulling the strings in Ukraine. The jury is still out on whether he has similar plans for other countries.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
"Kidnapping fathers for military service" or a draft. Maybe you can point me to McMaken's criticism of Putin's conscription where all Russian males (at least those that can't afford bribes) are required to spend 2 years of military service between the ages of 18-28.
It's just me but I think requiring one to defend their own country is a bit more justifiable than conscription to attack another country. This is also why the morale and subsequent performance of the Russian soldiers in Ukraine so far have been less than stellar.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I think the point is to push back on the common narrative. No one in the US thinks Putin is a good guy or anything.
It is more justifiable. Certainly. I would never say otherwise.
Some re reporting there might be a "fissure" developing between the elites and Putin
"LONDON — Fissures appear to be forming between Russian President Vladimir Putin and members of the oligarch class who made billions of dollars while showing fealty to the autocratic leader but now see their fortunes threatened by Western sanctions over the invasion of Ukraine.
The cracks are faint and fall short of suggesting any groundswell of oligarchic opposition to Putin, according to experts and Western officials. But expressions of unease that weeks ago seemed unthinkable have surfaced repeatedly in recent days.
After an earlier social media post calling for peace talks “as fast as possible,” Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska followed up on Sunday with a veiled shot at Putin’s stewardship of the economy, issuing a statement that said, “It is necessary to change the economic policy, it is necessary to end all this state capitalism.”
A second oligarch, Mikhail Fridman, said in a letter to subordinates that the Ukraine “crisis will cost lives and damage two nations who have been brothers for hundreds of years,” according to Reuters, which said that it had seen portions of the message.
Fridman said that he was born in Ukraine and that his parents still reside in the western part of the country. “While a solution seems frighteningly far off,” he wrote, “I can only join those whose fervent desire is for the bloodshed to end.”Ukraine invasion opens faint, but once unthinkable, fissures between Putin and Russian oligarchs (msn.com)
That might be more effective than the talks in Belarus
"LONDON — Fissures appear to be forming between Russian President Vladimir Putin and members of the oligarch class who made billions of dollars while showing fealty to the autocratic leader but now see their fortunes threatened by Western sanctions over the invasion of Ukraine.
The cracks are faint and fall short of suggesting any groundswell of oligarchic opposition to Putin, according to experts and Western officials. But expressions of unease that weeks ago seemed unthinkable have surfaced repeatedly in recent days.
After an earlier social media post calling for peace talks “as fast as possible,” Russian billionaire Oleg Deripaska followed up on Sunday with a veiled shot at Putin’s stewardship of the economy, issuing a statement that said, “It is necessary to change the economic policy, it is necessary to end all this state capitalism.”
A second oligarch, Mikhail Fridman, said in a letter to subordinates that the Ukraine “crisis will cost lives and damage two nations who have been brothers for hundreds of years,” according to Reuters, which said that it had seen portions of the message.
Fridman said that he was born in Ukraine and that his parents still reside in the western part of the country. “While a solution seems frighteningly far off,” he wrote, “I can only join those whose fervent desire is for the bloodshed to end.”Ukraine invasion opens faint, but once unthinkable, fissures between Putin and Russian oligarchs (msn.com)
That might be more effective than the talks in Belarus
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
Trump, Laura ingraham, etc think he’s the bee’s knees. Genius!
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Watching the Sunday morning talking heads, lots of discussion that Putin is isolated and has been for a few years. He's listening only to old-school hardliners thus getting a rosy impression of how Russia would be greeted in Ukraine and how quickly it would fall.
Clearly, Trump is colluding with Russia. Also happening; Let's Go Brandon literally helped Putin invade Ukraine with, yet again, more stupid decisions involving foreign policy. His record of being wrong remains perfect.
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
The Acme “trump sucks” package showed up today.
I like to hear about unique and interesting ways to view the world that don’t just march in lockstep with the prevailing orthodoxy. And Bannon was a brilliant political strategist who really helped get Trump elected. But Bannon is a fan boy of Alexander Dugin—Putin’s Rasputin. And that stuff gets really nutty and even occultish.
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
He’s smart but a little twisted.
Don’t know. I just know Bannon is coming from Mars with any of that Dugin philosophy stuff. Still, he’s the first guy I’d hire to run a political campaign. He’s a very smart guy in many ways.
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
Ain't a single one of those talking heads who said any of that two weeks ago. Now, the Twitter Blue Check's have all decided that Putin is crazy and that's the key to both understanding what's happening, and what will happen later. Classic.
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
The concept is that the shrunken woke scold from Sweden convinced German to shut down their coal plants, and that plus them shutting down their nukes, made them the energy slave of Russia, who accounts for half their natural gas sales.
Thus, knowing the most powerful country in Europe won't do much to stop your invasion of Ukraine, otherwise they'll freeze in the dark, enabled the Russians to take the risk of an invasion.
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
Depends has a 37 percent approval rating in the last poll I saw - no one thinks this senile old fool is anything else.
Speaking of Ukraine - near 100% certainty that anyone who has a Ukraine flag on their Twitter account had to replace the injection syringe that was there before, which replaced the Burn Loot Movement's clenched fist, which replaced the smiley face with a Wuhan dirty sock on it.
But remember - they're all fierce and independent thinkers - or so they'll claim.
Speaking of Ukraine - near 100% certainty that anyone who has a Ukraine flag on their Twitter account had to replace the injection syringe that was there before, which replaced the Burn Loot Movement's clenched fist, which replaced the smiley face with a Wuhan dirty sock on it.
But remember - they're all fierce and independent thinkers - or so they'll claim.
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
But did he cry about it too:
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
Back to real Ukraine news, not the fake Ghost of Kiev fighter ace, or the Snake Isle Alamo defenders, who actually surrendered instead of fighting to the death.
I fear the real war is coming to Ukrainian cities. It's all fun and games to post pictures of hot moms in yoga tights and painted nails holding AK-74's (not AK-47's - those are older versions), and talk about making Molotov cocktails (which do nothing at all unless the gasoline is gelled to make it stick and burn longer. Even then, they're worthless against armored vehicles, as metal burns rather poorly).
It's another thing to actually fight in combat, and keep fighting when the person next to you has their guts shot open into a puddle of sausages on the floor, and they make the most horrid noises you could imagine in your worst nightmare as they die in the dirt. We shall see - when the playing is over and the fighting is real.
Most recent wars have had 3 phases - the initial engagements, with breathless media accounts of all the action. Then a lull phase, as in Afghanistan in late October of 2001, or about day 4 of the second Iraq war.
Lots of talk then of "quaqmire! Vietnam! Failed planning!" Then the total collapse of the defending force, as they're been cut off, and are now being killed, with the invader no longer having long supply lines from the initial movement in.
I fear the real war is coming to Ukrainian cities. It's all fun and games to post pictures of hot moms in yoga tights and painted nails holding AK-74's (not AK-47's - those are older versions), and talk about making Molotov cocktails (which do nothing at all unless the gasoline is gelled to make it stick and burn longer. Even then, they're worthless against armored vehicles, as metal burns rather poorly).
It's another thing to actually fight in combat, and keep fighting when the person next to you has their guts shot open into a puddle of sausages on the floor, and they make the most horrid noises you could imagine in your worst nightmare as they die in the dirt. We shall see - when the playing is over and the fighting is real.
Most recent wars have had 3 phases - the initial engagements, with breathless media accounts of all the action. Then a lull phase, as in Afghanistan in late October of 2001, or about day 4 of the second Iraq war.
Lots of talk then of "quaqmire! Vietnam! Failed planning!" Then the total collapse of the defending force, as they're been cut off, and are now being killed, with the invader no longer having long supply lines from the initial movement in.
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
I see that unfolding as well.
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