Orlando Massacre

[NJlonghorn]

I grew up in Amarillo a long time ago and it was a nice place to be a kid. According to the linked article and from what I've heard from people who've been there recently, that may no longer be the case for some areas of town.

I'm not familiar with Amarillo's history, but the same thing could have been said in many Texas towns by the Comanches when the Spaniards came in, or the Spaniards when the Germans came in, or the Germans when the blacks came in, and so on and so forth.

 

[Joe Fan]

Have you heard what the killer said or did that caused him to be removed from the watch list? I'm curious. What does it take to be removed, if you know.

Maybe because Obama and Janet Napoltano had DHS focused on US military veterans and 2nd Amendment supporters instead?

 

[texas_ex2000]

Texasex2000

Have you heard what the killer said or did that caused him to be removed from the watch list? I'm curious. What does it take to be removed, if you know.

I have no idea. It's a fine line between stopping terrorism/respecting rights of immigrants. He was removed from the terrorist watchlist in March 2014.

*Edit - I am mistaken. Being on the terror watchlist in and of itself is not grounds to bar someone from buying a firearm. The point I wanted to make was that the shooter was removed the list for whatever reason, making a proposed list disqualification in this situation ineffective. For the record, I believe people on the terror watchlist shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun. That said it applies to a small percentage of people because less than 2% of those on this list are American citizens. And even still, a determined terrorist won't care about the law. The issue comes to the transparency about how people get on this list.

 

[Seattle Husker]

An AK-47 doesn't fire any more rapidly than pistols owned by women (for protection against rapists) or school security guards. AK-47s sold to the general public are not automatic, neither have any firearms used in any mass shooting in the US. In fact, I do not know if there is any documented case of a gunman using an automatic weapon in these mass shootings. There may have been a case of a drug cartel battle along the Mexican border fought with automatic weapons, but I haven't heard of one.

AK-47s, and the AR-15s used in the recent mass shootings, are also not "big." The vast majority of these modern rifles are lightweight, smaller caliber carbines.

That already exists. If the shooter tried to buy a gun while under FBI investigation, he would have been denied. They closed the investigation and removed him from that list.

AR-15's and AK-47's can be easily converted to perform like they are fully automatic. Buy a $100 market available part and you can have an automatic weapon in minutes. Just look at all the sites detailing this exercise for an AR-15. I have no idea whether this most recent terrorist did this but the San Bernardino terrorists had illegally gotten (but legally purchased) AK-47's that had been converted to automatic.

Here is the gun used by the Orlando terrorist. Full disclosure: this if from very leftwing site Mother Jones.

These military designed weapons are different than regular guns. Frontline had an interview recently with the lead designer of the original M16, the military grade version of the AR-15. He stated that this weapon was designed for maximum damage. Pointing to the .22 caliber of the weapon, a relatively low caliber, this was intentional. The bullet leaves the barrel more rapidly in the AR-15 than other .22 caliber rifles. The low caliber ensures the bullet doesn't exit the victims body but bounces around maximizing internal damage. The casualty rate for the M16 was off the charts in Vietnam compared to previous military standards, and higher than the AK-47. The designer claimed they had verified reports of deaths from victims with entrance wounds in their ankles. He claimed that the firing mechanisms in the AR-15 is virtually identical to those his team designed for the M16.

For all intents and purposes, the NRA has pushed to allow the AR-15 to be the most common rifle sold and it is a military grade weapon. Combine these weapons with high capacity magazines and the difference between a terrorist wielding this weapon and a group of terrorists in China wielding knives is dozens more deaths and injuries.

 

[NJlonghorn]

So what reasons could these disaffected domestic muslims give us in your view that would help us prevent them from being disaffected?
I read a stat yesterday that over half the muslim related terror incidence in our country were committed by children of immigrants. And we know what is happening with the Somalis we allowed in.
So what could living here in this country that has and is giving do much to these people and their children cause anyone to be disaffected ?

How's this as a hypothetical statement by an American-born Muslim:

You invaded and bombed my ancestral homeland with no reasonable justification. Worse, you openly boast that you don't care about my ancestral homeland's interests, proudly boasting that future decisions will be made on an "America first" philosophy. You killed some of my relatives, and left others homeless and scared. The unstable vacuum that you left behind led to still more of my relatives being killed or left homeless and scared. When the homeless and scared sought refuge, you turned them away, choosing to protect yourselves against distant, hypothetical risks while allowing thousands if not millions of refugees to die, or live in inhumane concentration camps. Domestically, you treat us with suspicion, subjecting us to surveillance and interrogation when the vast, vast majority of us are peaceful and law abiding. You go out of your way to block our attempts to build mosques and community centers, and are wary of us, if not hostile to us, when we move into your neighborhood. You hate us, and you make little effort to hide it. Then, when we complain about how we are treated, you proclaim that you have treated us well by giving us worldly things like money and education.
​

I'm not saying I agree with very much of this, and certainly not all of it. But I am objective enough to recognize that these are opinions that many people hold; that the opinions are at least partly grounded in reasonable perceptions of the truth; and that a small fraction of the people holding these beliefs will be vulnerable to the small fraction of radical Muslims who are pushing a terroristic agenda.

What do we do? I don't know. But I do know that throwing oil on the fire is not the answer.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Texasex2000

Have you heard what the killer said or did that caused him to be removed from the watch list? I'm curious. What does it take to be removed, if you know.

Based on published media reports the 2 investigations were for the following (my summaries):
2013: Mateen expressed support for ISIS in an online forum.
2014: Mateen had a tangential relationship with another American that traveled to Syria and fought for Al-Nusra. This guy died in a suicide attack.

I may have the incidents out of order. Based on media reports, the relationship between Mateen and the Al-Nusra fighter was distant. It appears when the 2014 case was closed Mateen was removed from the terrorist watch list.

It should be noted that the guns and ammo were purchase less than 2 weeks before the massacre, more than 1.5 years after the 2014 case was closed.

The challenge for the FBI is what defines due process? Is visiting a site and exclaiming "go ISIS" enough to be held indefinitely?

The reason that the NRA has fought any limitations to gun purchasing for those on the terrorist watch list is because there is no due process for getting put on the lists. Virtually any law enforcement agency can add someone to the database. There have been examples of incorrect names and former Congressman on the list. Getting off the list is also not so easy.

With all that said, the NRA is hiding behind "due process" in virtually any limits to gun access. Republicans stopped legislation 6-months ago that would have stopped anyone on the terrorist watch list from buying a gun. After Orlando, they've changed their tune to putting a hold on the purchase for 72 hours while the FBI has to present cause to continue to keep the purchaser from getting the weapon. 72 hours? So gracious of the NRA and their proxy, the Republicans.

 

[Joe Fan]

These are the views of the moderate and Westernized ......

A 2009 poll showed 100% of British Muslims think homosexuality is immoral
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

A more recent poll of British Muslims showed over half think homosexuality should be illegal http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/10/half-of-british-muslims-think-homosexuality-should-be-illegal-5807066/

 

[texas_ex2000]

AR-15's and AK-47's can be easily converted to perform like they are fully automatic. Buy a $100 market available part and you can have an automatic weapon in minutes. Just look at all the sites detailing this exercise for an AR-15. I have no idea whether this most recent terrorist did this but the San Bernardino terrorists had illegally gotten (but legally purchased) AK-47's that had been converted to automatic.

These military designed weapons are different than regular guns. Frontline had an interview recently with the lead designer of the original M16, the military grade version of the AR-15. He stated that this weapon was designed for maximum damage. Pointing to the .22 caliber of the weapon, a relatively low caliber, this was intentional. The bullet leaves the barrel more rapidly in the AR-15 than other .22 caliber rifles. The low caliber ensures the bullet doesn't exit the victims body but bounces around maximizing internal damage. The casualty rate for the M16 was off the charts in Vietnam compared to previous military standards, and higher than the AK-47. The designer claimed they had verified reports of deaths from victims with entrance wounds in their ankles. He claimed that the firing mechanisms in the AR-15 is virtually identical to those his team designed for the M16.

For all intents and purposes, the NRA has pushed to allow the AR-15 to be the most common rifle sold and it is a military grade weapon. Combine these weapons with high capacity magazines and the difference between a terrorist wielding this weapon and a group of terrorists in China wielding knives is dozens more deaths and injuries.

Well then...why don't you move to China?

Easily by whose definition? It's easier to make a bomb then trying to convert these things into an assault rifle. It would probably be much easier to convert older simpler ruger ranch rifles to fully automatic. It's also extremely illegal. One thing we agree on, Seattle, is that terrorists are extremely resourceful laws be dammed.

And here's a newsflash...bullets, 30-06 or .223, are supposed to be lethal.

 

[Seattle Husker]

These are the views of the moderate and Westernized ......

A more recent poll of British Muslims showed over half think homosexuality should be illegal http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/10/half-of-british-muslims-think-homosexuality-should-be-illegal-5807066/

I'm curious...to the 30% in America (per Gallup polling) that think homosexuality should be illegal qualify has "westernized"? While you call this moral relativism I'd argue that we live just fine amongst the number continues to drop because of our strong culture.

 

[Joe Fan]

I'm curious...to the 30% in America (per Gallup polling) that think homosexuality should be illegal qualify has "westernized"? While you call this moral relativism I'd argue that we live just fine amongst the number continues to drop because of our strong culture.

97% of Syrian Muslim refugees prefer Sharia Law
And ~ 1/3 of them admit supporting ISIS

 

[Seattle Husker]

Easily by whose definition? It's easier to make a bomb then trying to convert these things into an assault rifle. It would probably be much easier to convert older simpler ruger ranch rifles to fully automatic. It's also extremely illegal. One thing we agree on, Seattle, is that terrorists are extremely resourceful laws be dammed.

And here's a newsflash...bullets, 30-06 or .223, are supposed to be lethal.

Like I said...purchase a $100 aftermarket product, watch a video and you to can have a simulated automatic weapon in 10 minutes. You don't even have to be concerned about blowing yourself up, either. Seriously, if it were so easy and low risk to make a bomb as opposed to purchase an assault rifle why is the weapon of choice the assault rifle for the domestic terrorists for all but the Tsarnaev's? It's illegal but the NRA has put so many loopholes in gun legislation that I can legally put after-market products on a weapon to have it perform as an automatic weapon. Why? Hint: $$$

What kind of strawman are you building with the bullets comment? I stated that the gun treats the .223 caliber differently than that rifle I used to shoot blackbirds on the farm growing up.

 

[Seattle Husker]

97% of Syrian Muslim refugees prefer Sharia Law
And ~ 1/3 of them admit supporting ISIS

Outstanding! Now we simply need to find the 3%. Great legwork.

 

[texas_ex2000]

Like I said...purchase an $100 aftermarket product, watch a video and you to can have a simulated automatic weapon in 10 minutes. You don't even have to be concerned about blowing yourself up, either. Seriously, if it were so easy and low risk to make a bomb as opposed to purchase and assault rifle why is the weapon of choice the assault rifle for the domestic terrorists for all but the Tsarnaev's? It's illegal but the NRA has put so many loopholes in gun legislation that I can legally put after-market products on a weapon to have it perform as an automatic weapon. Why? Hint: $$$

What kind of strawman are you building with the bullets comment? I stated that the gun treats the .223 caliber differently than that rifle I used to shoot blackbirds on the farm growing up.

I've seen a lot more civilians killed by terrorists with regular everyday items and equipment than with rifles.

And what exactly do you want prohibitted? Automatic assault-weapons? .223 bullets? Guns with plastic grips?

What kind of rifle were you using to shoot blackbirds?

 

[Htown77]

ISIS existed and was conducting terrorism before Donald Trump started running for president. They are not the result of Islamophobia or Donald Trump.

Osama and Al Qaeda were active before we invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.

We helped Osama and the Taliban fight russia. We severely weakened a secular Saddam after the Gulf War in the 90s. We saved muslims in Kosovo from Christian serb persecution in 90s. Bin Laden continued to attack us.

Sorry, but radical islam did not emerge from islamophobia. Islamophobia emerged from terrorist attacks by radical muslims starting with 9/11.

Like nazism, radical islam jihad did not arise from america's feelings and will not go away if we are nice to it.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I've seen a lot more civilians killed by terrorists with regular everyday items and equipment than with rifles.

What kind of rifle were you using to shoot blackbirds?

US civilians, only if you include 9/11 and/or OK City in your calculations? It was a long time ago so I don't remember the brand but it was a bolt action rifle. My sons will get a chance to shoot that same rifle when we visit the farm again in the Fall. I'm not anti-gun but rather I think there is a big difference between military weapons and civilian weapons. There is a reason that I wasn't allowed to keep my M16 A2 in the Army. It was checked out then promptly checked back in after target practice. I also had to account for every shell casing.

 

[Htown77]

Another point is the fact that Jihadists tend to be pissed at America over Israel. I dont think being nice is going to change that. Until the middle east and Israel are at peace, we are going to have to deal with the small percentage of radical Islamic terrorists being mad at us unfortunately.

Anyway, y'all are aware I am anti Trump and I am not even trying to defend him here. There is a LOT wrong with him, but I dont buy that he is the reason for jihadists even when he says foolish things.

 

[Seattle Husker]

ISIS existed and was conducting terrorism before Donald Trump started running for president. They are not the result of Islamophobia or Donald Trump.

Osama and Al Qaeda were active before we invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.

We helped Osama and the Taliban fight russia. We severely weakened a secular Saddam after the Gulf War in the 90s. We saved muslims in Kosovo from Christian serb persecution in 90s. Bin Laden continued to attack us.

Sorry, but radical islam did not emerge from islamophobia. Islamophobia emerged from terrorist attacks by radical muslims starting with 9/11.

Like nazism, radical islam jihad did not arise from america's feelings and will not go away if we are nice to it.

I'd agree with much of what you wrote. Do you think it will ever go away though? I think it's here as long as the ideology remains. So the question is how do we learn to deal with it? Recognizing that there are 1.6B Muslims, do we drive more into the arms of extremism or try to marginalize the extremists? Do we declare war on Muslims or do we try to befriend and ally the moderate ones to enlist them in this battle? That's the choice in front of us. Trump appears to be advocating a "build a wall to keep them out" and kill them and their families wherever they are. The problem is, they are already here and among us. There are already ~3M Muslims in the US. What to do with them? The more we take the battle to them in Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, the more we see homegrown terrorists who have never been to those places emerge.

 

[texas_ex2000]

US civilians, only if you include 9/11 and/or OK City in your calculations? It was a long time ago so I don't remember the brand but it was a bolt action rifle. My sons will get a chance to shoot that same rifle when we visit the farm again in the Fall. I'm not anti-gun but rather I think there is a big difference between military weapons and civilian weapons. There is a reason that I wasn't allowed to keep my M16 A2 in the Army. It was checked out then promptly checked back in after target practice. I also had to account for every shell casing.

I'm also talking about my time in Iraq. And while I wasn't in this firsthand, you can also look to The Troubles in Northern Ireland and and Palestine/Israel.

A lot of people would call a .223 bolt action a "sniper" rifle. "Look at how sinister that thing is. I heard it's designed to put a lethal .223 round with extreme precison into someone's chest at 600 yards. I was so terrified by that sniper in DC. We can't have these sniper rifles available to the public."

One day, I would like to get an over under shotgun and a sweet dog to go upland hunting. I love cooking, I love quail, and I love dogs. That shotgun would only be useful for that pasttime.

To some, that's the only justification for owning a firearm. But to many people...rural homeowners with little police coverage, or elderly people, an AR-15 platform is the best tool for home defense. Not a shotgun, not a pistol, not a bolt action, but a semi-auto carbine with a 30 round magazine.

It's a lethal weapon...like any rifle. If you have multiple home invaders...like in the Cheshire, CT family murders or recently near Naval Observatory in Washington, DC, you need, not want, 30 round magazines. If you're older you need, not want a weapon with modest recoil and something you wouldn't have to reload after 5 shots or operate a bolt.

 

[Htown77]

I dont have a solution. I agree with more vetting. I do not agree with a total ban on muslims. I would support heightened scrutiny and possible temproary bans from particular countries like Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq or other terror hotspots. These measures should be temporary and specific. An all muslim ban would be dumb. There is no reason to ban Turks or Indonesians for example.

I will say that immigrants and visiting students do not have a right to live here. America is a sovereign nation and can and should be able to ban anyone from any nation, even Canadians or Tibetan Buddhist monks, if we see fit. I do not think we have to take any immigrants at all if we do not want to take any. That said, i am not convinced to ban all muslims at this point in time or probably any point in time (Trump is being unreasonable, as usual). I do think we should have extrodinary high scrutiny for anyone from Syria at the moment.

 

[texas_ex2000]

I dont have a solution. I agree with more vetting. I do not agree with a total ban on muslims. I would support heightened scrutiny and possible temproary bans from particular countries like Syria, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq or other terror hotspots. These measures should be temporary and specific. An all muslim ban would be dumb. There is no reason to ban Turks or Indonesians for example.

I will say that immigrants and visiting students do not have a right to live here. America is a sovereign nation and can and should be able to ban anyone from any nation, even Canadians or Tibetan Buddhist monks, if we see fit. I do not think we have to take any immigrants at all if we do not want to take any. That said, i am not convinced to ban all muslims at this point in time or probably any point in time (Trump is being unreasonable, as usual). I do think we should have extrodinary high scrutiny for anyone from Syria at the moment.

A ban on muslims is ridiculous. However, as HTown said...a temporary halt on travel originating in countries with ties to terrorist activities, I think is reasonable.

I also bet a ban on Americans travelling would be very popular in many other countries, so let's drop the we'll hurt people's feelings card.

 

[Horn6721]

Husker
You do remember Teddy Kennedy was on the no fly list,right? The no fly list as it exists right now is not really a good indicator of those who should not be allowed to buy guns. Someone who had been investigated twice by the FBI should have been flagged for purchasing a gun. Teddy Kennedy when alive probably not.

BTW I am guessing you were not allowed to keep the M4 since IT DID NOT BELONG TO. It belonged to the US Military.

 

[Htown77]

There are already ~3M Muslims in the US. What to do with them?

Respect their rights including 4th amendment rights. I was focussing on potential immigrants.

I will say that if someone aids a terrorist (it looks like the Orlando shooter's wife did) they should be prosecuted.

I am okay with lawful investigation of suspicious reports, but I am never okay with the violation of 4th amendment rights whether it's a muslim citizen, christian citizen or anyone else.

 

[NJlonghorn]

ISIS existed and was conducting terrorism before Donald Trump started running for president. They are not the result of Islamophobia or Donald Trump.

Osama and Al Qaeda were active before we invaded Iraq or Afghanistan.

We helped Osama and the Taliban fight russia. We severely weakened a secular Saddam after the Gulf War in the 90s. We saved muslims in Kosovo from Christian serb persecution in 90s. Bin Laden continued to attack us.

Sorry, but radical islam did not emerge from islamophobia. Islamophobia emerged from terrorist attacks by radical muslims starting with 9/11.

I agree that neither Islamophobia nor Donald Trump is to blame for the emergence (and, in some corners of Earth, prevalence) of radical Islam. I don't think anyone is claiming that.

The question is whether Islamophobia and anti-Muslim attitudes and policies are causing more Muslims to gravitate towards radicalism. I think the answer to that is yes, and that this will accelerate if Trump wins the presidency.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Senate Democrats have started a "filibuster" asking for action on sensible gun controls. Grandstanding or not, I support them.

 

[Clean]

I'm not familiar with Amarillo's history, but the same thing could have been said in many Texas towns by the Comanches when the Spaniards came in, or the Spaniards when the Germans came in, or the Germans when the blacks came in, and so on and so forth.

Really?

May your hero, Barack Obama, move all 10,000 Syrian refugees he hopes to import this year to your immediate neighborhood and spare poor old Amarillo.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Respect their rights including 4th amendment rights. I was focussing on potential immigrants.

I will say that if someone aids a terrorist (it looks like the Orlando shooter's wife did) they should be prosecuted.

I am okay with lawful investigation of suspicious reports, but I am never okay with the violation of 4th amendment rights whether it's a muslim citizen, christian citizen or anyone else.

It's not the immigrants coming in that are the problem. The FBI vetting seems be somewhat effective when evaluated in totality. Could the vetting improve? Yes, but like you I'd agree that it should for all people emigrating to the US.

yes, the wife will hopefully be prosecuted if she has any awareness that Mateen was plotting a terrorist attack.

 

[iatrogenic]

The question is whether Islamophobia and anti-Muslim attitudes and policies are causing more Muslims to gravitate towards radicalism. I think the answer to that is yes, and that this will accelerate if Trump wins the presidency.

And you base this on what?

How about we go with the obvious; Islam teaches hatred.

 

[texas_ex2000]

Like I said...purchase a $100 aftermarket product, watch a video and you to can have a simulated automatic weapon in 10 minutes.

Seattle, I was thinking about this...and it didn't make sense at all.

You cannot just purchase an aftermarket part and get yourself an automatic rifle. First, that would be illegal. Second, those parts don't exist. To modify an AR-15 into an automatic rifle would take a hell of a lot of professional custom machine work. And if it were done, the reliability of that weapon would likely be nil.

The sites you linked were to various aftermarket stocks that assist in pulling the trigger a quicker. These "bump fire" system will never approach the firepower of an automatic action. It still requires the user to pull the trigger to fire only one shot. Additionally, the accuracy of the rifle with these aftermarket mods are terrible as the stock is sprung to the barrel. Anyone that trains regularly can fire just as quickly, maybe even quicker, with an unmodified rifle/pistol.

That said, I don't like these bump fire/slidefire systems. These should be prohibited.

 

[Al V]

I agree that neither Islamophobia nor Donald Trump is to blame for the emergence (and, in some corners of Earth, prevalence) of radical Islam. I don't think anyone is claiming that.

The question is whether Islamophobia and anti-Muslim attitudes and policies are causing more Muslims to gravitate towards radicalism. I think the answer to that is yes, and that this will accelerate if Trump wins the presidency.

That's precisely what BHO said the other day .... Trump's statements are causing more "radical" (sic ... aka fundamental) islamists.

And if your second part is true, then we are in a death spiral as far as I'm concerned. The people of These United States are NOT the aggressors here. But attacks on our people have increased dramatically.

Therefore ... it's time to pull out the stops and use overwhelming force. We should soon have hundreds of "Chris Kyles'" returning from their tours/time. I don't have to tolerate being targeted for where I live and what I believe.

GET 'EM!

Watched 13 hours last night, finally. If you haven't ... you need to. It's lengthy, but necessary.

 

[ShAArk92]

sorry folks ... Cleaned-out the cache so I had to relog-in ... I logged-in with the wrong account. thought it was gone, but obviously not.