Good news on Sam

[nashhorn]

Defense will be the key.

And there you go. IF, and a big if this year, we get pressure on them we win handily because I am confident we can score - don't know how big, but we will score on them.

 

[p_town_horn]

I'm pretty surprised some of you are ready to just hand Sam an extra week of rest that it appears he won't need just so he can prep for West Virginia, considering we had to hold on to beat Baylor at home just two days ago. A loss at Okie State counts just as much as a loss to West Virginia.

Agree. This is not the time to get overconfident. See W. Va loss to Iowa State and Miami's loss to Virginia, etc. Sam should play if cleared. We just should not run him. No designed runs and few zone read plays. We may need to install a pistol formation or some more traditional run formations to avoid the zone read.

 

[BabHorn]

I don't think you can keep Sam from running with the ball. It's ingrained in him. Whether is a called run play or a scramble, he is going to run and open himself up to hits.

I do like that he has been sliding and running out of bounds more but taking on tacklers is what he does. Sam without being able to run is not Sam.

If Sam needs another week to heal, play Shaun and have one of the frosh QBs ready to step in if needed.

 

[ProdigalHorn]

We may need to install a pistol formation or some more traditional run formations to avoid the zone read.

I'd like to do some more in pistol sets and run play-action out of it as well. That tip that Klatt pointed out about how our RB alignment is tipping off our run-pass plays is a little troubling. I'm curious if opponents are keying on the run based on those reads - I can't imagine the defenders could see or would notice, but the sidelines could definitely be shouting "RUN RUN RUN" - which makes me think they're not picking up on it, since you'd think that would be a pretty clear red flag for our coaches to fix the issue.

 

[blonthang]

A loss at Okie State counts just as much as a loss to West Virginia.

Not really. Straight up math, yes.

But right now Big 12 standings are:

UT 4-0
WVU 3-1
oSu 1-3
OU 2-1
Tceh 2-1

ignoring any other games by these teams up to the UT-WVU game, if UT loses to oSu and beats WVU:

UT 5-1
WVU 3-2
oSu 2-3

but if UT beats oSu and then loses to WVU:

UT 5-1
WVU 4-1
oSu 1-4

and WVU would have the head-to-head over UT.

Said another way, it's better to lose to a lower standing competitor than to lose to the one right on your tail.

If you have any option in it at all, like managing injured key players.

Of course there's still OU and Tceh, each with only one loss, UT is ahead of OU by the head-to-head and Tceh is yet to come.

But regarding whether it's better for UT to beat oSu or WVU (if it's a devil's bargain), it's better to beat WVU.

P.S., but hell, what are we talkin'? Let's just beat them both.

Hook 'em!

 

[ProdigalHorn]

ignoring any other games by these teams up to the UT-WVU game,

That's where you lose me. In addition, it doesn't measure the idea that now the team is coming into the WV game with a loss, and a QB who hasn't taken a snap in three weeks in live action, and he's probably going to have to be on his game to outscore W Va. To me, too many things can go south after a loss that go beyond the numbers.

Ultimately, the most important game is the next one (unless you're in the NFL and you clinched the division, and even then you've got some debate.) That's been a sports truism for as long as I've been alive. If it's really Sam's team, you play Sam if he's ready to go.

 

[blonthang]

That's where you lose me.

To simplify the math w/r/t only the teams in this discussion.

If it helps, the only other games played by these 3 teams in the interim are BU at WVU Thu 10/25. oSu has a bye this coming Sat like for UT.

Maybe helps to plug that BU-WVU game into the discussion.

If BU beats WVU, then WVU has 2 losses and most of this discussion regarding UT v oSu or WVU is moot.

BUT, if WVU (at home) beats BU, then WVU will roll into Austin with a 5-1 conference record. Texas right now is 4-0, so will either be 5-0 or 4-1 (if loss to oSu).

If UT loses to WVU they'll either be 5-1 or 4-2; either way the regular season title is then in WVU's hands, not UT's. If UT beats WVU they'll be either 6-0 or 5-1, but have the head-to-head over WVU and OU, only Tceh still on the radar, but the regular season title will still be in UT's hands.

 

[moondog_LFZ]

.

Sam should play if cleared. We just should not run him. No designed runs and few zone read plays. We may need to install a pistol formation or some more traditional run formations to avoid the zone read.

This is my point.
If you're going to change up the offense anyway then you might as well play Shane.
Will Sam's shoulder hold up if he's throwing twice as much?
Will he get hit and sacked anyway?
Are we willing to risk Sam's season and have Shane take us home the last three games?

 

[Austin_Bill]

I just don't understand why we don't have a set of plays designed out of the Pro set. It isn't hard, yes it takes time for a QB to drop 5 or 7 steps but at the same time it has a full back as an extra blocker/run option. I'd love to see what Ingram can do out of the I formation. Moreover, with how small Big 12 defenses are, it would be extremely hard to stop.

I'm not even saying change your base offense, all I'm saying is create a set of plays that puts the QB under center with two backs. Shane would flourish on those plays. Granted footwork becomes a point of emphasis in practice which I don't know if it is stressed right now?

 

[AC]

I have something to add about Sam's injury. I have first hand experience. I had a complete shoulder separation 32 years ago in HS playing football. But I did have a 1st degree AC sprain about 1.5 years ago. I was riding my mtn bike with my daughter at a park I normally do not ride at and I got hung up on the sidewalk with my front tire. The bike went down going 20 mph downhill and I bailed to my left and hit my shoulder on the sidewalk. It hurt! The clavicle slightly separated and I was in a sling for 5 days. When I made it to the specialist he told me lose the sling and move the shoulder as much as possible. Obviously, I was not in SE position and did not have a reason to get back full range of motion fast, but it took me a solid three weeks. I am about the age Ross Ehlinger would be if he were alive, Sam's dad. So I am sure Sam can heal much faster, but I would bet he won't play in two weeks. Shoulder injuries hurt and they limit your throwing motion. I could not shoot a BB with my daughter who was a starting point guard then. Her team made the playoffs that year and we used to practice alot until I got hurt. I recall it taking almost a month for me to throw a long pass with a football or attempt a 3 pointer. And back then we did that alot. Now she just studies for college, etc. Anyway, I don't see how Sam will play in just two weeks. I know my situation and his are much different.....fwiw. Moondog is right, Sam should sit and rest the shoulder against OSU.

 

[Run Pincher]

If Shane has to play I think there's good news and bad news. The good news is okie ag looked like dog s^%* against kst and should struggle against the Texas defense. I'm not sure that means a whole lot though and it could be the same refs again. The bad news is they have 2 weeks to look at how baylor stymied the Texas run game and Texas doesn't have a back like Barnes to keep the chains moving when it's finally Run Run Run time.

I know I might get attacked by saying this, but at this point I think Keontay's numbers are a bit over rated. A 20 yrd carry followed by 2,3,1 may average 6.5, but it doesn't keep the chains moving like Barnes did getting a consistent 4-7 every carry. Tre is the best option since he's surprisingly powerful for his size, but he's still no Barnes and the back we had like Barnes left since he only got about 3 carries after the 5th game last year. That's a moot point though.

I'm not saying Keontay can't get there, but he has a lot of weight room work to do before he can be considered a powerful speedy back. Just hope TH can put together a game plan that can beat a down okie lite team on the road with the #2 QB.

 

[caryhorn]

I'm pretty surprised some of you are ready to just hand Sam an extra week of rest that it appears he won't need just so he can prep for West Virginia, considering we had to hold on to beat Baylor at home just two days ago. A loss at Okie State counts just as much as a loss to West Virginia.

I think most of us are just concerned for Sam's health; and want him fully recovered prior to full contact play. The only people who will hold Sam out are TH and the medical staff.

I'm in favor of Sam either playing with a limited playbook, cutting back on his run plays against osu, or letting Shane start.

Also, Shane led the team to 23 first half points against Baylor. If Dicker makes either of the FG's we are not one play away from losing. OR, if TH and Beck called a reasonably aggressive 2nd half to match the first half, we score at least one TD and no sweating at game's end.

No reason we should lose to osu if the offense comes to play, and plays with the aggressiveness that we saw in 3/4's of the ou game and 1/2 of the Baylor game, then we'll score enough to win. If TH goes into the conservative shell too early then we could lose to anyone. Like we almost did Saturday.

 

[caryhorn]

I know I might get attacked by saying this, but at this point I think Keontay's numbers are a bit over rated. A 20 yrd carry followed by 2,3,1 may average 6.5, but it doesn't keep the chains moving like Barnes did getting a consistent 4-7 every carry. Tre is the best option since he's surprisingly powerful for his size, but he's still no Barnes and the back we had like Barnes left since he only got about 3 carries after the 5th game last year. That's a moot point though.

I think if Ingram played in a run game that was more creative, more motion, edge plays, pulling linemen, reverses, etc then he would break a few more runs. Ingram has terrific skills, seldom goes down with the first hit, is shifty and has a burst of speed that allows him to accelerate to daylight.

But the running game is a bit like the single wing, with all the QB power plays to the edge. I like going to the edge with power, but I think Ingram should be toting the ball.

 

[dukesteer]

Aside from Earl, Ricky, D’Onte and a very few others, what RB is going to be effective when most of the defense is keying on him because they know that the QB either won’t run or that if he does run, he is hardly a threat. SB is not a threat to run because, a) he’s not a particularly good runner, and b) we can’t risk an injury.

I like the pro set, play action suggestion as an occasional change of pace.

 

[#2is#1]

Even though they can be effective at the college level I don't like running QB offenses. The QB is generally the only guy who passes the ball more than once in a game. in the modern college game passing accounts for more than half the yards and TDs. If the QB get hurt because he takes too many hits running you are screwed. If he hurts his shoulder it can be difficult to throw the ball accurately.

How many big school QBs who are featured as runners make it through a full season without injuries that keep them out for multiple games?

All of them. It’s the opposite of what you are thinking. Most of the winning programs have a qb that can run. You just cannot defend it.

 

[wadster]

I think if Ingram played in a run game that was more creative, more motion, edge plays, pulling linemen, reverses, etc then he would break a few more runs. Ingram has terrific skills, seldom goes down with the first hit, is shifty and has a burst of speed that allows him to accelerate to daylight.

But the running game is a bit like the single wing, with all the QB power plays to the edge. I like going to the edge with power, but I think Ingram should be toting the ball.

Ingram is averaging liker 6.5 ypc. Don't think I'm going to ***** about coaching philosophy when a back is at that level. Maybe the plays we're running for him are exactly what he needs. All his big runs, he starts inside and then bounces out. 1st back we've had since Charles that can make the jump cut in the hole and then have the speed to get to the outside.

 

[WorsterMan]

I have something to add about Sam's injury. I have first hand experience. I had a complete shoulder separation 32 years ago in HS playing football. But I did have a 1st degree AC sprain about 1.5 years ago. I was riding my mtn bike with my daughter at a park I normally do not ride at and I got hung up on the sidewalk with my front tire. The bike went down going 20 mph downhill and I bailed to my left and hit my shoulder on the sidewalk. It hurt! The clavicle slightly separated and I was in a sling for 5 days. When I made it to the specialist he told me lose the sling and move the shoulder as much as possible. Obviously, I was not in SE position and did not have a reason to get back full range of motion fast, but it took me a solid three weeks. I am about the age Ross Ehlinger would be if he were alive, Sam's dad. So I am sure Sam can heal much faster, but I would bet he won't play in two weeks. Shoulder injuries hurt and they limit your throwing motion. I could not shoot a BB with my daughter who was a starting point guard then. Her team made the playoffs that year and we used to practice alot until I got hurt. I recall it taking almost a month for me to throw a long pass with a football or attempt a 3 pointer. And back then we did that alot. Now she just studies for college, etc. Anyway, I don't see how Sam will play in just two weeks. I know my situation and his are much different.....fwiw. Moondog is right, Sam should sit and rest the shoulder against OSU.

Thanks AC. This is exactly the kind of feedback / real time experience I was seeking about shoulder injuries. My HS football injuries all involved the legs.... so I couldn't offer anything.

It would be wise to start SB vs. Okie Lite but I bet Sam starts....

 

[AC]

I've loved Ingram's running since the fist couple games. He is comparable to Jamal Charles and it would appear in the offseason he can get bigger and stronger and end up more powerful than Charles was. We're going to need him more until Sam gets back.

 

[caryhorn]

All of them. It’s the opposite of what you are thinking. Most of the winning programs have a qb that can run. You just cannot defend it.

Having a QB that can run is very different from having an Offensive scheme that asks the QB to be a primary runner that must hit the line straight on multiple times throughout the game. Sam is the latter, and him getting hurt is not a surprise. Note his concussions from last year.

For example Murray at ou is a QB who can run to make something happen off a broken play. Most teams have this sort of QB--who can run enough to occasionally save a broken play.

 

[IvanDiabloHorn]

I think the question is whether or not Sam can pass the ball as well as before the injury. If he cant, start Boo. Sam wont help the team if he cant pass or reinjures his shoulder on a run. I will garuantee that Okla St will be aiming for that shoulder. If Boo is not getting it done, Sam is available.

 

[Bayerithe]

On those plays where you run Sam just insert LJH in the wildcat.

cause the defense won't see that coming at all? offenses can't just show their hand, cause then you just load the box, if there's little to no threat of throwing the ball. it becomes purely situational

 

[Bayerithe]

Grade 1 sprains are partial tears that require 7-10 days to heal. Herman was on the money, that you HOPE he can at least begin to lightly throw over the weekend, but you don't know how fast it will heal, and if it merely becomes a pain tolerance thing. Probably not the best thing to deal with when you already suffer from inaccuracy

 

[zuckercanyon]

I think the question is whether or not Sam can pass the ball as well as before the injury. If he cant, start Boo. Sam wont help the team if he cant pass or reinjures his shoulder on a run. I will garuantee that Okla St will be aiming for that shoulder. If Boo is not getting it done, Sam is available.

I wonder if anyone can project how many weeks Sam needs to rehab his shoulder in order for everyone to be comfortable with him running frequently and often, which is his skill set? Is there a number of weeks anyone can point to and say, ok, now he can play the same way he did before the injury?

 

[moondog_LFZ]

cause the defense won't see that coming at all? offenses can't just show their hand, cause then you just load the box, if there's little to no threat of throwing the ball. it becomes purely situational

You don't think they saw it coming with Sam?
When we brought in Young at RB for short yardage or goal line and Same kept it.
Those are the plays I'm talking about.
And LJH has thrown a few passes, as well.

 

[Bayerithe]

You don't think they saw it coming with Sam?
When we brought in Young at RB for short yardage or goal line and Same kept it.
Those are the plays I'm talking about.
And LJH has thrown a few passes, as well.

no, because Sam is a legitimate threat to throw. Look at the 4th and 2 against OU ... he swung the ball out to Watson. Look at the dig route throws to CJ. Look at some of the quick slants to Beck. That's not happening with LJH

 

[moondog_LFZ]

no, because Sam is a legitimate threat to throw. Look at the 4th and 2 against OU ... he swung the ball out to Watson. Look at the dig route throws to CJ. Look at some of the quick slants to Beck. That's not happening with LJH

You don't get what I'm saying.
Against Baylor they began to insert LJH in the wildcat at goal line and short yardage.
That's what I'm talking about.
It's a zone read or a run with fullback style lead blocking and hard to stop even though you know it is a run.
That is all.

 

[caryhorn]

I'm not even saying change your base offense, all I'm saying is create a set of plays that puts the QB under center with two backs. Shane would flourish on those plays. Granted footwork becomes a point of emphasis in practice which I don't know if it is stressed right now?

Yes^^^, this is what I've been saying by using a running play that sends power to the edge with a running back (not Sam) carrying the ball.

Check this out:

 

[AC]

I wonder if anyone can project how many weeks Sam needs to rehab his shoulder in order for everyone to be comfortable with him running frequently and often, which is his skill set? Is there a number of weeks anyone can point to and say, ok, now he can play the same way he did before the injury?

All I know is when I had an AC sprain in my shoulder, I could shoulder hit a door. But I couldn’t throw a football or grip it. The limiting factor will be grip and the throwing motion. Taking a hit should come before accurate passing. I’m no Dr, but I have dislocated a shoulder and had an AC sprain in the same shoulder decades later. Hope that helps!

 

[AC]

All I know is when I had an AC sprain in my shoulder, I could shoulder hit a door. But I couldn’t throw a football or grip it. The limiting factor will be grip and the throwing motion. Taking a hit should come before accurate passing. I’m no Dr, but I have dislocated a shoulder and had an AC sprain in the same shoulder decades later. Hope that helps!

Oh, and it took me three solid weeks until I could throw but I was 49 then and didn’t have UT athletic facilities helping me rehab. So I predict Sam will start WVU but not OSU.

 

[Joe Fan]

Herman said Ehlinger is on schedule. They will have him try to throw Thursday. If that goes well then he will do full practice Sunday.