Saban wasn't the reason things fell apart here. Sark bringing Alabama assistant coaches with him is fair game. Poaching current players and incoming recruits not so much.
2021 Recruiting - Football
- Thread starter Badass
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Joe Fan
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My sense is that those two discussed recruits and assistants a month ago and reached some type of friendly agreement
Joe Fan
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Roach with some words about Herman's recruiting - confirming some of the bad rumors
" ..... When Herman was first hired, the reputation he had as a recruiter was fantastic. When I started calling around to gather reaction from coaches and recruits in the Houston area, I didn’t quite get the excitement I expected. In fact, some outright rolled their eyes when I asked about him. In Monday’s edition of The Stampede, I wrote about how arrogance and a lack of self-awareness plagued Herman and that was magnified at Texas.
— One source I spoke with who was close to Herman at Texas said he felt that his ego got the best of him. “Coming from Houston and Ohio State, he expected everything to be easy. When he faced adversity he didn’t know what to do.” For Herman, having some strong recruiters near him made up for it. Tim Beck was involved in just about everything Texas did in recruiting and covered up a lot of those issues. When Herb Hand was hired, Beck would go along on offensive line prospects and close. One such story I was told concerns Jaylen Garth. He was pretty much a slam dunk for Texas from the beginning, but Hand couldn’t quite close the deal. Because of his relationship with Roschon Johnson, Beck was able to step in and close it. As I came to find out, that type of pack recruiting was common.
— One former staffer I spoke with said the struggles in recruiting weren’t because the previous staff was great and the new staff was bad. They said that the old staff recruited well together, and gang recruited top kids. It was something they learned while at Houston because there were times when Herman wasn’t as involved with the recruiting effort. There were also times he meddled where he shouldn’t. The source told me that Drew Mehringer and Corby Meekins never got the credit they deserved because they were handcuffed on players at the position. Herman’s background was in coaching wide receivers and he wanted to have more oversight on that position than anything else. That caused Texas to stall or delay on targets like Jaxon Smith-Njigba and Marvin Mims. It was the reason Texas was late offering Jordan Whittington and initially offered him on defense. Even Garrett Wilson was in question when others on the staff wanted to move forward with an offer. Herman loved size in his receivers and valued it over the insane production of those previously mentioned.
— Many times, recruits mentioned that Tom Herman wasn’t as involved in the day-to-day recruitment like Lincoln Riley and Jimbo Fisher were. A former Texas staffer confirmed that Herman saw his role as primarily a closer. One source told me “Good head coaches recruit just as hard assistants do on the daily. It’s not just about the 20-minute meeting that you have with them on an unofficial visit.” In his role as a closer, Herman overestimated his position. One story that sticks out to me is the recruitment of Noah Cain. I had an excellent source near the four-star running back, and he told me that Noah agonized all night over the decision, but Tim Beck and Stan Drayton were bringing it home for Texas. After almost being ready to make the decision, Cain stalled one last time and Herman “blew his top” on him in a phone call. From that moment, the decision for Cain to move on and pick Penn State became easy and left a bad taste in the mouth of Cain’s parents. ..."
Mike at Night: More on Herman and what went wrong in recruiting— One source I spoke with who was close to Herman at Texas said he felt that his ego got the best of him. “Coming from Houston and Ohio State, he expected everything to be easy. When he faced adversity he didn’t know what to do.” For Herman, having some strong recruiters near him made up for it. Tim Beck was involved in just about everything Texas did in recruiting and covered up a lot of those issues. When Herb Hand was hired, Beck would go along on offensive line prospects and close. One such story I was told concerns Jaylen Garth. He was pretty much a slam dunk for Texas from the beginning, but Hand couldn’t quite close the deal. Because of his relationship with Roschon Johnson, Beck was able to step in and close it. As I came to find out, that type of pack recruiting was common.
— One former staffer I spoke with said the struggles in recruiting weren’t because the previous staff was great and the new staff was bad. They said that the old staff recruited well together, and gang recruited top kids. It was something they learned while at Houston because there were times when Herman wasn’t as involved with the recruiting effort. There were also times he meddled where he shouldn’t. The source told me that Drew Mehringer and Corby Meekins never got the credit they deserved because they were handcuffed on players at the position. Herman’s background was in coaching wide receivers and he wanted to have more oversight on that position than anything else. That caused Texas to stall or delay on targets like Jaxon Smith-Njigba and Marvin Mims. It was the reason Texas was late offering Jordan Whittington and initially offered him on defense. Even Garrett Wilson was in question when others on the staff wanted to move forward with an offer. Herman loved size in his receivers and valued it over the insane production of those previously mentioned.
— Many times, recruits mentioned that Tom Herman wasn’t as involved in the day-to-day recruitment like Lincoln Riley and Jimbo Fisher were. A former Texas staffer confirmed that Herman saw his role as primarily a closer. One source told me “Good head coaches recruit just as hard assistants do on the daily. It’s not just about the 20-minute meeting that you have with them on an unofficial visit.” In his role as a closer, Herman overestimated his position. One story that sticks out to me is the recruitment of Noah Cain. I had an excellent source near the four-star running back, and he told me that Noah agonized all night over the decision, but Tim Beck and Stan Drayton were bringing it home for Texas. After almost being ready to make the decision, Cain stalled one last time and Herman “blew his top” on him in a phone call. From that moment, the decision for Cain to move on and pick Penn State became easy and left a bad taste in the mouth of Cain’s parents. ..."
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It just gets worse. Where was this vetting 4 years ago?
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
I agree with Roach at the very top, he came in with a solid rep as a recruiter. I even remember posting some quotes in here from some of his tOSU players about how much they loved him. I was fooled by it all.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
This is from another paysite guy - who I think covers something else now but was covering Herman at the time
Herman had a couple of great recruiting classes, but this shows that we still left a lot on the table simply because of Herman and his personal issues
* People around Wilson still say he would have signed with us early had we offered
"My friends are telling me that he basically said he was stubborn as a recruiter and wanted final say on offers which meant Texas missed on a bunch of guys. I have been complaining about this for year!
This has been an issue with the past two Texas staffs. Herman thought just because Texas was Texas, he could take his time and land whoever he wanted. It meant you had countless Garrett Wilson situations due to atrocious evals.
Here is my list of guys who they just simply "passed" on--
This has been an issue with the past two Texas staffs. Herman thought just because Texas was Texas, he could take his time and land whoever he wanted. It meant you had countless Garrett Wilson situations due to atrocious evals.
Here is my list of guys who they just simply "passed" on--
Looking back on some of the Texas staff's "passes" is infuriating:
- Jaylen Waddle (went after Justin Watkins instead. Watkins no longer plays)
- Jaxon Smith-Njigba (never even offered him!)
- Nate Anderson (didn't evaluate him until he blew up at The Opening. OU did a good job evaluating)
- EJ Smith (they wanted Mookie Cooper and continued to pursue him after he decommitted)
- Garrett Wilson* (wasn't offered until it was too obvious he was good)
- Austin Stogner (you could tell he was good with your eyes closed. He was "too old" for Texas because he went to Pre-K instead of skipping it. My sister did that too. Now at OU)
- Jalen Wydermyer (you could tell he was good in high school. It was a no brainer. They didn't even look at him. Now starting and producing at A&M)
- DaShaun White (wasn't offered until late and never really pursued. Now we have LB issues and OU has a good player)
- Taye Barber (obviously better than his ranking. Now killing us at TCU)
- Rhamondre Stevenson (they went 100% in on Trey Sanders instead)
- Marvin Mims (didn't even offer him. Dude was soooo good. Is now working his way up a loaded OU WR depth chart)
Not to mention the last staff passing on CeeDee Lamb and Kenneth Murray"
- Jaylen Waddle (went after Justin Watkins instead. Watkins no longer plays)
- Jaxon Smith-Njigba (never even offered him!)
- Nate Anderson (didn't evaluate him until he blew up at The Opening. OU did a good job evaluating)
- EJ Smith (they wanted Mookie Cooper and continued to pursue him after he decommitted)
- Garrett Wilson* (wasn't offered until it was too obvious he was good)
- Austin Stogner (you could tell he was good with your eyes closed. He was "too old" for Texas because he went to Pre-K instead of skipping it. My sister did that too. Now at OU)
- Jalen Wydermyer (you could tell he was good in high school. It was a no brainer. They didn't even look at him. Now starting and producing at A&M)
- DaShaun White (wasn't offered until late and never really pursued. Now we have LB issues and OU has a good player)
- Taye Barber (obviously better than his ranking. Now killing us at TCU)
- Rhamondre Stevenson (they went 100% in on Trey Sanders instead)
- Marvin Mims (didn't even offer him. Dude was soooo good. Is now working his way up a loaded OU WR depth chart)
Not to mention the last staff passing on CeeDee Lamb and Kenneth Murray"
Herman had a couple of great recruiting classes, but this shows that we still left a lot on the table simply because of Herman and his personal issues
* People around Wilson still say he would have signed with us early had we offered
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No wonder our recruiting was tanking. I guess CDC was between a rock and a hard place when it came to changing coaches. He knew recruiting was suffering but he tried to get Urban Meyer first and that took a couple of weeks. Then Steve sarkisian was available and he had to do research for that so we lost time in 2021 recruiting, lost some good athletes. It's too bad that we have an early signing date because now all these athletes would have been available to us for the February signing date.
I'm just thinking out loud.
Some of these athletes wanted to come to Texas but because of Herman's underlying issues they went elsewhere. So I wonder if they can get out of their LOI and sign with us. But they are probably wondering if it's worth the effort to change schools. We don't need all these great athletes to change their minds but if we can get a few more offensive lineman that would be great. "Hey guys, Herman is gone and we have a new offensive line coach"
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
IT list of 2021s Sark can still pursue
L.J. Johnson, RB, Cy Fair Obviously, the most important recruit on the board right now for the new staff.... Coach Sarkisian had spoken to Johnson, and assured him that Stan Drayton would remain as running backs coach... a dog fight with (aggy). Drayton, Bryan Carrington and Brandon Harris have all been key here in this recruitment for well over a year.
Ishmael Ibraheem, CB, Dallas Kimball - wants to be at Texas ... ball is in the court of Sarkisian and his new staff, and the UT administration.
David Abiara, DE, Mansfield Legacy ... talent is not in question for the one-time Notre Dame verbal. An off the field incident caused many schools to pause ... Herman’s staff almost signed the 6-4, 240-pound edge player with broad shoulders, long arms and big hands on NSD1. ... this could come down to the UT admin signing off
Garfield Lawrence, DE, Tyler Legacy ... one of the top DL trainers says “Bro, that kid is big, fast and physical. Why is he ranked so low? He is way too go to go to Kansas, no offense to Kansas. He plays high, but that is fixable. That kids future is bright if he puts in he work.” Lawrence deciding not to sign with Kansas in Dec has opened the door for Texas, Baylor and other programs
Keith Cooper, OLB/DE, Dickinson ... another edge player that will for sure receive a look from Sarkisian’s staff ... near 6-5, 235-240-pounds and has an otherworldly 83-inch wingspan. He has short space quickness the he flashes at times, but is not the explosive EDGE player as some others in the 2021 class. His basketball feet and length are his calling cards. Arizona State, Ole Miss, Penn State, Indiana and Kansas State have been constant in his recruitment with a decision expected later this month. The prior staff had been evaluating Cooper all season.
Austin Uke, OG/T, Dallas Parish Episcopal ... his trainer is Donald Hawkins. The prior staff did a terrible job in this regard. Bryan Carrington has a relationship with Hawkins per Hawkins, but Herb Hand never called Hawkins. With offers from Stanford, USC, Florida State, Georgia Tech and many more, timing will be important here for Sarkisian to reach out to Hawkins.
Ishmael Ibraheem, CB, Dallas Kimball - wants to be at Texas ... ball is in the court of Sarkisian and his new staff, and the UT administration.
David Abiara, DE, Mansfield Legacy ... talent is not in question for the one-time Notre Dame verbal. An off the field incident caused many schools to pause ... Herman’s staff almost signed the 6-4, 240-pound edge player with broad shoulders, long arms and big hands on NSD1. ... this could come down to the UT admin signing off
Garfield Lawrence, DE, Tyler Legacy ... one of the top DL trainers says “Bro, that kid is big, fast and physical. Why is he ranked so low? He is way too go to go to Kansas, no offense to Kansas. He plays high, but that is fixable. That kids future is bright if he puts in he work.” Lawrence deciding not to sign with Kansas in Dec has opened the door for Texas, Baylor and other programs
Keith Cooper, OLB/DE, Dickinson ... another edge player that will for sure receive a look from Sarkisian’s staff ... near 6-5, 235-240-pounds and has an otherworldly 83-inch wingspan. He has short space quickness the he flashes at times, but is not the explosive EDGE player as some others in the 2021 class. His basketball feet and length are his calling cards. Arizona State, Ole Miss, Penn State, Indiana and Kansas State have been constant in his recruitment with a decision expected later this month. The prior staff had been evaluating Cooper all season.
Austin Uke, OG/T, Dallas Parish Episcopal ... his trainer is Donald Hawkins. The prior staff did a terrible job in this regard. Bryan Carrington has a relationship with Hawkins per Hawkins, but Herb Hand never called Hawkins. With offers from Stanford, USC, Florida State, Georgia Tech and many more, timing will be important here for Sarkisian to reach out to Hawkins.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
IT's list of out of state 2021s to pursue
Terrion Arnold, S, John Paul II Catholic (Tallahassee, Fla.) Florida, Georgia, Alabama in then hunt with others still trying.
Brian Walker Jr., WR, Walker (La.) LSU has been fighting off Georgia, Alabama, Texas A&M and others.
Destyn Hill, WR, Edna Karr (New Orleans, La.) Home-state LSU has been trying to beat out Florida State and Florida. Alabama, Ole Miss, Oklahoma and Tennessee have been in the mix at various points.
Keon Coleman, WR, Opelousas Catholic (La.) The desire to play hoops at the next level impact this recruitment. Ole Miss, Kansas and Auburn have been the three to watch.
Alton McCaskill, RB/ATH, Oak Ridge USC has been a constant. Oklahoma State the same. Ole Miss and Vanderbilt on the peripheral. Should L.J. Johnson opt for Texas A&M, McCaskill could come into play.
Brian Walker Jr., WR, Walker (La.) LSU has been fighting off Georgia, Alabama, Texas A&M and others.
Destyn Hill, WR, Edna Karr (New Orleans, La.) Home-state LSU has been trying to beat out Florida State and Florida. Alabama, Ole Miss, Oklahoma and Tennessee have been in the mix at various points.
Keon Coleman, WR, Opelousas Catholic (La.) The desire to play hoops at the next level impact this recruitment. Ole Miss, Kansas and Auburn have been the three to watch.
Alton McCaskill, RB/ATH, Oak Ridge USC has been a constant. Oklahoma State the same. Ole Miss and Vanderbilt on the peripheral. Should L.J. Johnson opt for Texas A&M, McCaskill could come into play.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Us ignoring Hawkins is another part of the Herman recruiting mystique that never made any sense
He has trained and will train a bunch of the better DFW OLs. Why would you refuse to speak to him?
Beat me to it again McH. That's what we get for rushing to hire him.
Hopefully Sark and Flood can mend the fences with Hawkins. Hermie and Hand completely messed up this relationship with their arrogance .
Wydermyer burns a bit for me because he went to my high school but ever since Donnie Little it seems like every Dickinson kid whose good enough is just expected to be an aggie.
Although he didn't play at Dickinson, Beau Trahan's father was a BIG Aggie, played at A&M, was the HC of the famous CyFair "let em score" victory over Temple. I wouldn't say that Warren "hated" Texas, he just had a strong dislike unless perhaps the T-Sip had a nice Country Club membership he cold use, particularly with his principal.
When, however, his baby boy decided to go to Texas, Warren gritted his teeth, smiled and became a Horns fan. Not sure I ever saw him wearing a Burnt Orange shirt. I never said a word, just smiled, but Warren knew what I was thinking.
I would love to see Beau come back to coach or have some position in the administration.
Not football, but there is also Dennis Cook a year or two behind Donnie.
Very good with the Dennis Cook reference. He was before my time but also a Dickinson alum who did big things at Texas. Too bad Andre Ware was not added to the list. I guess he would have been a safety lol.
Warren Trahan coached at Dickinson too as you probably know and Beau's younger brother Brody who played at Dickinson ended up at Lorbay.
No humor. Ware was told by our coaching staff that he would play safety not QB at Texas. He wouldn't have won the Hype$man, but he would probably had a 8-10 year NFL career at Texas.
OH, and he would have had to go to class
Warren was good people and a great guy. Reminded me a lot of Mark Dennard, who played OG for the Aggies about the same time.
Cookie never pitched much for the Horns, but was cast to stop our "adventures in fly balls" by playing RF.
His greatest moment came in the World Series, when we were down by 1 (IIRC), the bases were loaded and Cookie is up. He calls time out to go over to third base dugout. The announcer (former pitcher Jim Katt) said, "he's motioning to the batboy. Looks like he's going to change bats". About that time Cookie stops, gets a plug, pops the chaw in his mouth, strolls back up and cranks a three run double. I told Randy Hendricks they should get Cookie a deal with Skoal.
Cookie never pitched much for the Horns, but was cast to stop our "adventures in fly balls" by playing RF.
His greatest moment came in the World Series, when we were down by 1 (IIRC), the bases were loaded and Cookie is up. He calls time out to go over to third base dugout. The announcer (former pitcher Jim Katt) said, "he's motioning to the batboy. Looks like he's going to change bats". About that time Cookie stops, gets a plug, pops the chaw in his mouth, strolls back up and cranks a three run double. I told Randy Hendricks they should get Cookie a deal with Skoal.
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Ware did get a 4.0 Business degree at UH. He definitely didn't skimp out on academics.
That's a damn good story. He certainly didn't have a HOF career but I expected him to have actually been a pitcher at Texas. Didn't know that.
I went to a goodly number of the games back then. It was late in the season before I remember him coming in from RF to pitch.
I don't think he was around for that worthless Friday night game that went umpteen innings and caused us to lose the Saturday final because we played to something like three in the morning (Oklahoma State I believe). If he was on that team, he pitched that game, because I think the batboys (they were about 8-10 years old) pitched.
I don't think he was around for that worthless Friday night game that went umpteen innings and caused us to lose the Saturday final because we played to something like three in the morning (Oklahoma State I believe). If he was on that team, he pitched that game, because I think the batboys (they were about 8-10 years old) pitched.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
He did win a World Series game out of the BP (1997)
Pretty bad. Herman's ego did him in. When you have coaches rolling their eyes at the mention of your name, its bad.
Couldn't get out of his own way, caused a lot of Texas' recruiting issues with top players who left the state.
Wanted final sign off on all WR offers, so we were late with many of those. Caused us to lose Garrett Wilson and others. Tantrum on the phone cost us Noah Cain.
So glad he is gone
Yes they can get out of the LOI just like we lost one to blowu a year or so back. Just dont enroll and the LOI is null and void and then go where you want.
Remaining 2021 Oline pipeline not looking very good
...Is my top concern ATM
And wish we had one more strong QB committed for next 2 cycles (21-22)
...Is my top concern ATM
And wish we had one more strong QB committed for next 2 cycles (21-22)
Sark should have 2022 taken care of by summer. Looks like 2021 is a bust as far as HS QB's go (Thank you Tom Herman). Maybe a portal catch.
You are right, Viper. My primary 2021 concern is oline...and it would be nice to have another strong QB for the cycle. I agree w you on Sark and 2022...I just threw it in there due to my Ewers butthurtedness
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