What if it was not the Russians?
- Thread starter Horn6721
- Start date
I35
5,000+ Posts
I love it how the Libs jump to conclusions and claim Trump colluded with Russia and then there is a ton of evidence that Hillary has done stuff that's actually been proven. Then they asked us not to jump to conclusions even though we know for a fact she has criminal acts. Example: destroying evidence. None of us would get away with destroying subpoenaed evidence.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/nyt-manafort-gates-told-surrender-mueller-probe-122235635--politics.html
"Manafort's indictment doesn't reference the Trump campaign or make any allegations about coordination between the Kremlin and the president's aides to influence the outcome of the election in Trump's favor. The indictment does allege a criminal conspiracy was continuing through February of this year, after Trump had taken office."
The comment above in bold should be the headline. The comment above in italics is the political attempt to rope Trump into the equation. The underlined comment below confirms it as Manafort was gone from the Trump Administration so mentioning 2017 activity is a very obvious clue about media bias:
"Manafort, 68, was fired as Trump's campaign chairman in August 2016 after word surfaced that he had orchestrated a covert lobbying operation on behalf of pro-Russian interests in Ukraine. The indictment against Manafort and Gates was largely based on activities disclosed in August 2016 by The Associated Press, which reported that the pair had orchestrated a covert Washington lobbying operation on behalf of Ukraine's ruling political party."
"Manafort's indictment doesn't reference the Trump campaign or make any allegations about coordination between the Kremlin and the president's aides to influence the outcome of the election in Trump's favor. The indictment does allege a criminal conspiracy was continuing through February of this year, after Trump had taken office."
The comment above in bold should be the headline. The comment above in italics is the political attempt to rope Trump into the equation. The underlined comment below confirms it as Manafort was gone from the Trump Administration so mentioning 2017 activity is a very obvious clue about media bias:
"Manafort, 68, was fired as Trump's campaign chairman in August 2016 after word surfaced that he had orchestrated a covert lobbying operation on behalf of pro-Russian interests in Ukraine. The indictment against Manafort and Gates was largely based on activities disclosed in August 2016 by The Associated Press, which reported that the pair had orchestrated a covert Washington lobbying operation on behalf of Ukraine's ruling political party."
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Let's be clear, nothing has actually been proven other than HRC voted for the Uranium One deal. Devices were destroyed and email deleted but nothing has been proven that any of that was done to avoid subpoenaed records. The DOJ hasn't claimed that. Only rightwing media continues to advance that theory. That's already been investigated and the results were shoddy data handling of secure data but nothing worthy of criminal charges per the DOJ.
Just as Trump deserves the benefit of an investigation (I've never claimed he "colluded"), so does HRC, before leaping to conclusions.
I was pleasantly surprised to see some agree that Manafort is a shady dude. Unless he has evidence of Trump collusion (doubtful) he's doing jail time. If we're speculating, I do think it's possible that Manafort colluded. He had all the connections and reportedly influenced the modification of the Republican party platform towards being more Russian friendly on Ukraine.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Of course everyone expected Trump and crew to distance themselves from Manafort. They'll do the same with Flynn if/when he's indited. If Manafort did collude with the Russians while associated with the Trump campaign, will he spill the beans?
I'll say it again for prosperity. I've never thought that Trump had any knowledge of collusion. To be sure, he's short on knowledge, period. Russian meddling was simply wind at his sails. Now, it's certainly possible that others within the campaign worked with the Russkies.
In light of the anticipated attempts to diminish Paul Manafort's impact on the campaign I'll cite Sean Hannity who cited Newt Gingrich.
I'll say it again for prosperity. I've never thought that Trump had any knowledge of collusion. To be sure, he's short on knowledge, period. Russian meddling was simply wind at his sails. Now, it's certainly possible that others within the campaign worked with the Russkies.
In light of the anticipated attempts to diminish Paul Manafort's impact on the campaign I'll cite Sean Hannity who cited Newt Gingrich.
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First of all, Seattle, you ignorant slut. Ha! Got you didn't I? Just messing with you. Hey, I HATE corruption. Period. It is a cancer in DC and we all know it. It crosses all party lines and I personally consider most if not all our representatives in DC to be mentally ill in the sense that their pathological ambition levels are abby normal (little Young Frankenstein there for you).
If Donald Trump colluded with the Russians then I would have no problem seeing him up on charges of Treason. I would also be VERY sad for our country if it came to that. But I am also here to say I would have a BIG problem if the Left attempts to bring him down for purely Machiavellian power reasons. That would be almost as despicable as treason.
If Manafort colluded then throw the book at him. If the media is attempting to stain Trump by their association when the article that I posted clearly indicates there is NO INVOLVEMENT AT ALL in the charges that led to the indictment then I would consider those members of the media to also be despicable human beings. Our country is DESPERATE for statesmen (women) who only want what is right no matter where the chips may fall. Who will that person be?
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Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Agree completely.
Let's let the investigation play out. I get tired of both sides of the media (and politicians) jumping out front of Mueller with the sole intention of grandstanding. You have those on the left trying to tie Trump to Manafort and those on the right trying to downplay his role. We know that Manafort organized the convention and influenced the party platform to greatly water down any language critical of Russian and their involvement in Ukraine. It's been reported that Manafort offered to give a personal update to a Russian oligarch on campaign progress while he was Campaign chair. On the surface those are pretty damaging knowing the deep ties he already had with Pro-Russia interests. Still, that's all for Mueller to figure out.
If Trump is stained its because he hired what we all could see was a "Guido" and Roger Stone who's record of running dirty campaigns goes back decades.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Between Don Jr's meeting with the Russians at Trump tower, the now public story of Papadopolous, and Manafort's seedy history the the Pro-Kremlin crowd one can surmise the Trump campaign certainly had a desire to collude. Still no smoking gun...yet.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
That there is possible intention. You could tell Obama's intention from the Open Mic. Mueller's job is to determine if desire or intention became illegality.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
From August --
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNblpQvWkAAiTU4.jpg:large
A document filed last month by the Podesta Group revealed the firm failed to disclose dozens of contact points it made with people in influential government offices while lobbying on behalf of a pro-Russia Ukrainian think tank from 2012 to 2014.
Newly disclosed points of contact between the Podesta Group and the American government, which often took the form of meetings, emails and phone calls, included outreach to the State Department, the office of Vice President Joe Biden, and the National Security Council.
The firm was representing the European Centre for a Modern Ukraine, a Ukrainian think tank looking to soften the position of the Obama administration toward the country's then-pro-Russian government.
Newly disclosed points of contact between the Podesta Group and the American government, which often took the form of meetings, emails and phone calls, included outreach to the State Department, the office of Vice President Joe Biden, and the National Security Council.
The firm was representing the European Centre for a Modern Ukraine, a Ukrainian think tank looking to soften the position of the Obama administration toward the country's then-pro-Russian government.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNblpQvWkAAiTU4.jpg:large
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Whomever p
Whomever paid them should demand a refund. They simply needed to hire Manafort.
Is it legal for the FBI to identify the subject of a FISA court investigation just because he gets offered a job by a political campaign? I don't know the answer to that, but I'll bet it's not
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Once the primary was decided, the campaign should have been given a heads up
I could think of ways to do this without disclosing any FISA details
We used to call that finesse
edit - maybe somebody did eventually and this was the real reason Trump cut him loose? Even if so, he was still allowed inside the campaign from March to August (2016). While being wiretapped. This was improper, at a minimum
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OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
Technically, Manafort was only there three months. That said, much like Stone, Bannon, et al., they can often help more from the outside than from the inside at times. My interpretation of this whole mess is that this a signal to everyone else by Mueller. This can go one of two ways when we come to you. You can tell the truth and support your country or you can play hard ball and, if you've got a sketchy history, you'll find the full weight of the United States of America against you. Manafort was told back when they were doing no knock warrants on his home that he would be indicted so that's no surprise. $10 million bail? Dang! That's Switzer in an Austin court bail.
The surprise is the Papapapapadopolous guy. And, when I read the history of this thing it's not horrible but it shows that the campaign was fully willing to cooperate with anyone regardless of legality and that they did everything that they said that they didn't do. I mean, I think the Russians were actually purposefully ham fisted at this thing just because they knew it would stir up a turdstorm for the next few years. They already had the avenue into the Trump campaign. They had no necessity to contact DJT Jr. with a message from the Crown Prosecutor or Moscow. That was leaving Reece's Pieces for the future, methinks. The real feces will make contact with the osculating fan when the truth comes out about significant foreign rubles into campaigns and it could hit both parties. So be it.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
I subsequently edited the post above. I think the campaign should have been warned, in some way. Not giving a warning or heads up was an intentional act. And, under these circumstances, could be viewed as an opportunity by the Dems to spy on the campaign using the FISA pretext.
Seems pretty disingenuous given it was Hillary 2016 and the DNC who were paying for Russian generated gossip. True they used a cutout/middleman lawfirm and GPS Fusion. Of course they did. But the fact remains that millions of dollars went from Hillary2016/the DNC though those middlemen to the Russians for dirt on Hillary's political opponent.
Is this not what you have been accusing Trump of for nearly a year now? -- "collusion with the Russians?"
I will grant you that none of this is as bad as what Ted Kennedy did with the Soviets in 1984. But none of you guys cared about that at the time. There is really only one explanation for why you care about what an unpaid Trump volunteer might have done but do not care/have never cared about what Hillary and Ted Kennedy did.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Maybe Manafort should just issue a statement saying he "was drunk and doesn't remember."
Then come out as gay
The media would then defend him, right?
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
A right wing person initially paid for the dossier. Then, once the great Oz received the nomination the left got involved. So, the OPPOSITION paid for the OPPOSITION research....shocker. Turns out they didn't really use any of it and more than one party turned it over to the authorities because, you know, that's what you do when you stumble onto what could be proof of treason, high crimes, etc. I'd say there's a possibility that the Russians used the dossier to get us a trojan horse that would implode after the election regardless of who won. That said, using hindsight, has anything turned out false in the dossier? I mean much may be unproven and the salacious things will likely never be proven or disproven. But, what about the 19.5% sale of Rosneft? There are two things that may bring down this house of cards. Rosneft and the foreign $ into campaign coffers.
Brad Austin
2,500+ Posts
You do realize that Steele paid intermediaries who paid the Russian sources, right? He never even met with or communicated with the Russian linked sources himself.
It can't be confirmed because even Steele had no means to confirm it. And paying people to pay people to give you dirt on someone?
Any chance they're not going to keep producing manufactured info to collect, knowing they'll never have to face the guy the info is going back to?
The Dossier is manufactured garbage and anyone with a clue knows it.
It can't be confirmed because even Steele had no means to confirm it. And paying people to pay people to give you dirt on someone?
Any chance they're not going to keep producing manufactured info to collect, knowing they'll never have to face the guy the info is going back to?
The Dossier is manufactured garbage and anyone with a clue knows it.
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
Besides the PeePee tape, has it been wrong?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Yet the FBI independently verified parts of the dossier.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
A fake Russian facebook account (BlackMattersUS) got 16,000 users to claim they'd attend and 5-10k people to attend an anti-Trump march a few days after the election.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
The Washington Post is reporting that Sam Clovis, Trump's national campaign Co-Chair and current USDA head nominee, is the one who pushed Papadopolous to meet with the Russians.
.....and nothing happened.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
I'll wait for Mueller to determine that.
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