Venezuelan Update (Florida Maquis)

Joe Fan said:
Expressed support or recognition of Maduro as president of Venezuela:
- Bolivia
- Cuba
- Mexico
- Russia
- Turkey

Recognising Juan Guaido as president of Venezuela:
- US
- Canada
- Brazil
- Paraguay
- Colombia
- Argentina
- Peru
- Ecuador
- Costa Rica
- Chile
- Guatemala
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Joe that’s stupid. When you list those countries what you really are listing is the right wing puppet governments supported by our government. The people inhabiting those countries don’t necessarily support this guy trying to take over via coup.

Pence calls Maduro a dictator. Ha. The guy trying to replace him fits the description.
 
Joe Fan said:
It's factual
Click to expand...
Just because something is factual doesn't make it legitimate. I've posted videos on this thread going back several weeks, some of which showed maps listing the countries recognizing Maduro in one color and countries not recognizing Maduro in another color.
 
US refuses to withdraw diplomats from Venezuela, vows ‘appropriate action’ if they’re harmed

The hubris is breathtaking. We are Nazi Germany.

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has refused to pull diplomats from Caracas, arguing the government that severed diplomatic ties with the US is not legitimate and threatening ‘appropriate actions’ if anyone is endangered.


“We call on the Venezuelan military and security forces to continue protecting the welfare and well-being of all Venezuelan citizens, as well as US and other foreign citizens in Venezuela,” Pompeo said in a statement on Wednesday evening, adding the US “will take appropriate action to hold accountable anyone who endangers the safety and security of our mission and its personnel.”​
 
Musburger1 said:
US refuses to withdraw diplomats from Venezuela, vows ‘appropriate action’ if they’re harmed

The hubris is breathtaking. We are Nazi Germany.

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo has refused to pull diplomats from Caracas, arguing the government that severed diplomatic ties with the US is not legitimate and threatening ‘appropriate actions’ if anyone is endangered.


“We call on the Venezuelan military and security forces to continue protecting the welfare and well-being of all Venezuelan citizens, as well as US and other foreign citizens in Venezuela,” Pompeo said in a statement on Wednesday evening, adding the US “will take appropriate action to hold accountable anyone who endangers the safety and security of our mission and its personnel.”​
Click to expand...

I decided to remind myself why I had you on ignore. The Nazi reference tells me you're the worst poster on this board bar none.
 
bystander said:
I decided to remind myself why I had you on ignore. The Nazi reference tells me you're the worst poster on this board bar none.
Click to expand...

He is a bit off there for a Russian. Stalin hated that fact that Nazism was just another form of Socialism which meant the Hitler-era Nazis were fellow comrade socialists, just like them. His solution was to insist that they not be called Nazis but rather "Fascists," and this was reflected all over, from schoolbooks to monuments. This is something even most modern Russians generally still stick with.
 
bystander said:
I decided to remind myself why I had you on ignore. The Nazi reference tells me you're the worst poster on this board bar none.
Click to expand...
The Nazis imperial drive attempted to conquer nations using the German military. Germans citizens were willing to sacrifice their lives in mass in order to attain the goals of Nazi leadership.

After Vietnam, the American public would no longer accept mass sacrifice in order to attain imperial conquest. So now the US employs the combination of a volunteer fighting force, clandestine information forces (CIA, NGO’s etc), proxy forces (jihadists of various origins), financial clout (sanctions, IMF) and media domination to achieve similar goals.

And while the US establishment bombards Americans with charges of Russian meddling, the same establishment plots coups around the globe in the name of democracy and human rights while simultaneously sleeping with the most horrible dictators and human rights abusers on the planet in Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Bystander is the perfect name for someone who looks the other way in denial, thus condoning massive evil.
 
In 2006, Venezuela produced 20X more oil than North Dakota.
Today, the state of North Dakota alone out-produces the entire country of Venezuela (which has the largest proven oil reserves on the planet)
How?
1) The Shale Revolution by the dirty capitalist pigs in America, and
2) the collapse of Socialism in Venezuela

DnbN09PW0AAao_p.jpg
 
Musburger1 said:
Those of you who believe this is totally organic, believed the same thing about Ukraine and Syria. Trump, just like his predecessors, is in the business of empire and regime change.....
Click to expand...

It's weird behavior for a 'Putin-lackey" dont you think?
Bizarrely, Trump's administration keeps taking actions that directly contravene Russia's interests
That Putin guy is a very weird puppeteer. He must be playing 3D chess
 
Joe Fan said:
In 2006, Venezuela produced 20X more oil than North Dakota.
Today, the state of North Dakota alone out-produces the entire country of Venezuela (which has the largest proven oil reserves on the planet)
How?
1) The Shale Revolution by the dirty capitalist pigs in America, and
2) the collapse of Socialism in Venezuela

DnbN09PW0AAao_p.jpg
Click to expand...
Let me interpret the graph for you. Sociaiism was in place well over a decade prior to 2015 when the production decline commenced. US shale production in North Dakota began its rapid increase from approximately 2010 to 2014 where it leveled off. So what happened in 2015? Chavez government had been in place fifteen years prior to this. What happened was that the US began implementing sanctions against Venezuela while simultaneously passing a law ending the prohibition against the exporting of oil. The decline has absolutely zero to do with socialism.

The oil industry is very dependent on credit. Parts constantly need to be repaired and/or replaced. The purpose of the sanctions is to cut off the credit necessary to run an economy. Hence the sanctions against Iran, Venezuela, North Korea, Russia, and formerly Iraq are basically methods of economic warfare.

Hell, the US is one of the most socialistic systems on the planet since Roosevelt. Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, subsidized housing. Need I go on? It's just that the US leadership objects to other countries locking out privatization. Wake up folks.
 
Musburger1 said:
Those of you who believe this is totally organic, believed the same thing about Ukraine and Syria. Trump, just like his predecessors, is in the business of empire and regime change.
In Syria, the regime change attempt failed and we lost regionally to Iran.
In Ukraine, the regime change succeeded, but it backfired as Ukraine is a failed state and Crimea (the crown jewel) is now part of Russia.
Whether or not regime change is accomplished in Venezuela, it is sure to backfire just like the others.
Click to expand...

My opinion is that the likelihood of Russian intervention in VZ is greater than that for the US. Yes, we still have some neo-con Senators who are always itching for more US intervention. But they dont hold the WH. And if you guys go in, I say the US should stand back and let it happen. Let Russia get bogged down there with that mess. And pay for it.
 
Joe Fan said:
My opinion is that the likelihood of Russian intervention in VZ is greater than that for the US. Yes, we still have some neo-con Senators who are always itching for more US intervention. But they dont hold the WH. And if you guys go in, I say the US should stand back and let it happen. Let Russia get bogged down there with that mess. And pay for it.
Click to expand...
That’s delusional on multiple fronts. First of all, the White House is totally under the thumb of the Neocons. Bolton and Pompeo are poster boys. And whenever Trump steps outside the Neocon boundaries, they either pull him back or undermine him. But hey, he chose them.

Secondly, neither the US nor Russia is likely to get bogged down. They will respectively provide arms, training, and aid. They will respond asymmetrically. Everyone loses but the US loses most.
 
So the US caused Venezuela's economic collapse because of increased oil production?

Give me a break. It isn't America's responsibility to limit oil exports to protect communism. Venezuela screwed themselves by nationalizing the oil industry which halted any innovation and investment. Notice Norway who depends on oil production as much as Venezuela. When the oil price dropped Norway's economy didn't collapse. Why? Because they continue to invest in more efficient extraction technology.
 
Monahorns said:
So the US caused Venezuela's economic collapse because of increased oil production?

Give me a break. It isn't America's responsibility to limit oil exports to protect communism. Venezuela screwed themselves by nationalizing the oil industry which halted any innovation and investment. Notice Norway who depends on oil production as much as Venezuela. When the oil price dropped Norway's economy didn't collapse. Why? Because they continue to invest in more efficient extraction technology.
Click to expand...

You don't get it. Let me break it down for you.

1. It's more lucrative for the oil industry to export oil in many cases as they can sell where the price is higher. The oil industry was prohibited from doing this since the crisis in the 1970's where we experienced a shortage due to the Arab embargo. A law was passed so that US production could not be exported.

2. In 2015, the oil industry pressured Congress and Obama to end the prohibition. Now, the oil giants were free to export oil. They needed a market. By crushing Venezuela's ability to produce, a market for US exports could be created.

3. At the same time (2015), Obama declared Venezuela a threat to US national security (no one ever said how), and the sanctions were implemented. This made it nearly impossible for Venezuela to obtain credit needed to maintain infrastructure necessary to keep up with production.

4. Since 2015, as you can visually see by glancing at Joe's graph above, the production began to fall off a clifff. Evil, horrible, socialism had very little to do with this. It was primarily caused by severe US sanctions in a concerted effort to bring down the Maduro government and cripple Venezuelan oil production.
 
1-2. Who give a flying ****. The US government has no real justification for outlawing export of US made products.

3. I agree Venezuela is no threat. Sanctions are counterproductive. Good thing the US doesn't have all the available capital in the world. Maybe it makes investment harder but not impossible. Plus, a good business can invest its own profits. Remember when those oil prices were really high? Great opportunity to save and invest. It proves my point. The government was awful in managing the business.

4. Like I said mismanaged and a difficult situation doesn't equate to the US causing. Where were Brazil, Iran, Russia, and other countries that were more amenable to Venezuela? China invests vast amounts of money abroad to help countries produce minerals, etc. See? Easy.
 
Monahorns said:
1-2. Who give a flying ****. The US government has no real justification for outlawing export of US made products.

3. I agree Venezuela is no threat. Sanctions are counterproductive. Good thing the US doesn't have all the available capital in the world. Maybe it makes investment harder but not impossible. Plus, a good business can invest its own profits. Remember when those oil prices were really high? Great opportunity to save and invest. It proves my point. The government was awful in managing the business.

4. Like I said mismanaged and a difficult situation doesn't equate to the US causing. Where were Brazil, Iran, Russia, and other countries that were more amenable to Venezuela? China invests vast amounts of money abroad to help countries produce minerals, etc. See? Easy.
Click to expand...
1&2 “Who gives a flip?”
Dude, I just gave you the background and a primary reason for why and how this situation developed. And you don’t give a flip? Can you not see beyond your nose? Have you any idea as to possible negative consequences that vey likely will come to pass as the US pursues these immoral policies and shunning of international law?

3. Have you ever tried to run a large business, one that requires dealing with foreign businesses, without access to credit? Sure, the government mismanaged quite a bit and squandered surpluses, but it was the sanctions that made recovery all but impossible.

4. For your information, China, Turkey, India, and Russia have helped keep Venezuela afloat. And as the US escalates it’s interference, you can bet Russia and China will kick the US in the nuts anytime an opportunity presents itself. The US no longer has a military advantage over Russia, and because of the US duplicity toward other countries, many of these countries are beginning to gravitate toward Russia and away from the US. These countries simply do not trust the US government. Our rulers believe they can rule by fear rather than through leadership encouraging cooperation.
 
For Monahans, Joe, and anyone else. After the introductory minute or two, an overview of the situation discussed between Monahans and myself is illustrated.

 
Musburger1 said:
What does that idiot have to do with the topic?
Click to expand...

Well, it would allow you to argue that Maduro's VZ would be better a better place to run a business than AOR's version of the USA

The silence of the Dems on the latest VZ is sort of interesting. It gives the impression that they are waiting on the memo which will tell them how to respond
 
Bernie has now spoken on this, and the leftists do not like what he wrote
But his tweets demonstrate the difficulty for liberals in openly discussing what is happening


 
Bernie is full of sh_t. Dozens of international observers said the elections were fair and transparent including Jimmy Carter. The Supreme Court ruled the disbanding of the corrupt National Assembly was constitutional. As far as the Democrats and most of the Republicans in Congress, most don’t have a clue about anything other than what phone numbers to call in order to fund their campaigns.
 
Trump (channeling Reagan, imo) --

"The problem in Venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been faithfully implemented” ​
 
This is what you get when you vote for someone because they check all the identity politics boxes:



What's really fun on this thread is watching Venezuelan citizens reply and tell her she doesn't know what she's talking about.
 
#1 An election can't be legit when you jail candidates or cause them to go into hiding out of fear. If you call that fair, then you are EVIL.

#2 Go Bernie! I completely agree with him on this. If only he would do a complete reversal on his economics.

#3 The Muslim lady is really really stupid if she thinks Trump is coming up with any plans for a coup. Trump's foreign policy has been coopted by the NSA and Pentagon. If there are any plans for the US military to use violence, that's DOD people not Trump.
 
Monahorns said:
#1 An election can't be legit when you jail candidates or cause them to go into hiding out of fear. If you call that fair, then you are EVIL.

#2 Go Bernie! I completely agree with him on this. If only he would do a complete reversal on his economics.

#3 The Muslim lady is really really stupid if she thinks Trump is coming up with any plans for a coup. Trump's foreign policy has been coopted by the NSA and Pentagon. If there are any plans for the US military to use violence, that's DOD people not Trump.
Click to expand...
1. That didn’t happen. Where did you hear that nonsense?
2. Bernie doesn’t have all of the facts right.
3. Yes, of course the coup wasn’t initiated by Trump. Venezuela has always been a deep state target, and the particulars of the current plot began in earnest around 2015. But Trump is fully on board now and if he was genuinely against regime change (he campaigned against it) he was too weak and cowardly to stay committed.
 
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