Heard today from Brad Edwards sitting in for Finebaum a professor of sports law at Pepperdine say Title IX is a non-issue here.
Urban Meyer put on paid leave
- Thread starter Joe Fan
- Start date
moondog_LFZ
5,000+ Posts
I don't know.
The entire conversation, including photos, is on his wife's phone.
His wife even tells the alleged victim that she is going to have to tell Urban about this.
The alleged victim says "Go ahead".
May not be proof beyond all doubt, but c'mon.
Looks like the strategy is to deny deny deny.
Urban might skate, idk, but Zach is lying his *** off for sure.
Urban might skate, idk, but Zach is lying his *** off for sure.
Unless there is more evidence that is what is going to happen. Yes he knew and probably did not follow the rules, but the evidence put forward so far does not support that.
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
God I hope not. I wonder about laws that don't require someone to 1) report when they're attacked; 2) follow through when they report something. If this guy abused her all this time then she stayed around for the pay raises......
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
Urban needs to easily skate on this bs. At some point in this "I can't handle my own business" world, someone needs to stand up and say "this person had the power to take care of her own mess and CHOSE NOT TO DO SO!".
B
Buck-Horn
Guest
What will be the most interesting development in this story will be UM’s collateral damage if he is found “not guilty”. The “circumstantial” evidence may haunt him & OSU regardless. Unfortunately for UM, that comes with the territory in the world of high-profile sports & Hollywood figures. I’m sure the administration is considering the after affects of this storm. Of course, a natty or 2 will fog many memories!
Disagree, she got pressured by Earl Bruce and Urban’s Adviser. Her husband went on radio today and totally lied. After which, Brett McMurphy posted texts from him admitting to choking her.
Urban’s statement today was weak. Yeah I lied nine times at media days but trust me now. I reported it and didn’t care after that. I’ve heard enough, just fire him for cause and let the chips fall
As long as the alum money keeps coming in nothing is going to happen.
moondog_LFZ
5,000+ Posts
You obviously know absolutely nothing about being a victim in an abusive relationship and the psychological impact it has on the victim.
You would do well to do a little research to gain a better understanding.
If Urban reported it then someone in the University is the one he reported it to. That's what we're missing from today's news (unless I missed it). If an Ohio State administrator say's, "Urban complied with his contract because he let us know" then all that is left is why Urban didn't fire him in 2015 and his lies at the press conference and if either of these actions/non-actions are grounds for termination. In the case of keeping Smith on, if Urban should be fired then someone else also needs to be fired because apparently someone else agreed with Urban to keep him on.
Urban looks pretty bad though about lying to the media and changing his story. Even if what he said today is that absolute truth (he panicked and lied at first but was in compliance all along) then the University probably should do something for embarrassing the university but I don't think they should fire him. The question is this: did he harm the university by lying to the media? I have a feeling they will consider the embarrassment to be a minor inconvenience compared to winning championships. They'll live with the embarrassment. I can guarantee you the hard-core Ohio State fans aren't embarrassed at all.
It all comes down to being a leader. Lying reflects very poorly on someone. He's been in front of the media a thousand times. He should have been prepared for the questions (wasn't Smith already fired by this point?). All he had to say was, "No comment for the time being."
Urban looks pretty bad though about lying to the media and changing his story. Even if what he said today is that absolute truth (he panicked and lied at first but was in compliance all along) then the University probably should do something for embarrassing the university but I don't think they should fire him. The question is this: did he harm the university by lying to the media? I have a feeling they will consider the embarrassment to be a minor inconvenience compared to winning championships. They'll live with the embarrassment. I can guarantee you the hard-core Ohio State fans aren't embarrassed at all.
It all comes down to being a leader. Lying reflects very poorly on someone. He's been in front of the media a thousand times. He should have been prepared for the questions (wasn't Smith already fired by this point?). All he had to say was, "No comment for the time being."
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She chose to take a meeting with them. She is a grown adult, not a child or invalid. "Someone pressured me" is never an excuse for an adult for their own decisions.
From McMurphy's article:
"Gainesville to ask Courtney to drop the charges, Courtney said. Courtney said she also received a call from de Fries to set up a meeting at Panera Bread on SW Archer Road in Gainesville.
Ultimately, Courtney said she relented to de Fries and didn’t press charges. Courtney had convinced herself this would never happen again.
She was wrong."
Yes, she was wrong to make that choice.
From McMurphy's:
"Since Zach had already left, Courtney told the police not to come to the house because she had to calm her daughter down and put her to bed. The police said since Zach had left, they could come out the next day or she could come by the station the next morning. The report was officially filed on Oct. 26, 2015. Zach Smith has never been convicted of domestic violence."
If this abuse occurred, she is not responsible for what her husband did to her. However, once she had informed the police, the police tried to work with her and she ultimately decided not to press charges, that is not Urban Meyer's fault. That is her own fault. Urban Meyer could not make her file charges. No one could make her file charges. If she made that choice, then that choice was her responsibility. On top of it, if the husband is denying it and the wife is refusing to file charges, there is no reason to fire the husband or anything for Urban Meyer or Ohio State to do.
Also, I am not doubting the screenshot. I have no idea as to its veracity either way. Zach Smith has denied the screenshot, and I could make up the same screenshot on my computer in 10 minutes. Ultimately, I want to see this proven in a court of law.
There has been a lot of spin and yellow journalism from the media, and a lot of people are buying it. If the guy did it, he is a no good SOB that deserves whatever he has coming. However, it is still not Urban Meyer's fault this adult woman refused help from the police. If he did not do it, at worst, all that has been proven is Urban Meyer gave a bad answer in a press conference.
I have to agree with the accused that this should not be an employer's responsibility, and it especially is not when it has already been reported to the police and the alleged victim refuses to press charges.
In general, "I am weak and it is society's/someone's else fault" has gotten old.
I have spoken reason. Everyone feel free to return to enjoying your Joseph McCarthy mob and yellow journalism.
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I think most employers would be highly upset if the company name was being tossed around in the media concerning an alleged abuser. I'm not so sure my employer (a public company) would stand behind me. It makes me think about the kneeling NFL players and the straight-forward argument that an employee can be disciplined or fired if they cost the company money (ticket sales; brand hit etc). But it appears that Ohio State stood behind Smith for whatever reason. So that's their fault. I also agree that Urban can't make Courtney do anything but he can comply with his contract and make his forceful recommendation one way or the other as to Zach's employment with the team. I'm sure if Urban wanted him gone it would have happened that day.
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As the HC of a major, high profile program like Ohio State ...with a history (see Jim Tressel), one would think that Meyer would err on the side of obsessive compliance. With all of the incidents taken together, UM should have understood that the Zach Smith situation was a bomb waiting to go off. If he didn’t, he has no right being the HC of OSU, much less any athletic program at any institution in this country in 2018.
It is possible if not probable that UM is guilty of nothing except very poor judgment. That, and dishonesty (if that is the case) is adequate justification for his dismissal in my judgment.
It is possible if not probable that UM is guilty of nothing except very poor judgment. That, and dishonesty (if that is the case) is adequate justification for his dismissal in my judgment.
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The personal relationship has to be the key to this. I agree about the obsessive compliance culture. I mean, this is an assistant coach (of course would Stoops have protected Lincoln Riley given the same set of circumstances?). This is not your best player. Seemed like a no-brainer to let him go.
Of course, if your employee tells you she is lying, all you have is second hand knowledge claims by her and she does not actually ever press charges, despite having more than adequate ability and opportunity to do so, would you really f*** over your employee like that?
"I know you are telling me that you did not do it. I know she said to my wife you did it, and she is not pressing charges (which is probative of her lying and you telling the truth), and she is back with you. I am just going to fire you anyway. Your employment should improve your marriage."
I have a hard time believing a lot of retrospective hornfan posters would do what they are claiming they would do with only the knowledge Urban had (could be more than has been revealed, could be less) at the time.
"There is a rumor flying around about you. Sure you deny it and the person making the claim is not backing it up by pressing charges, but the existence of the rumor is good enough for me! You are fired!"
@bystander If I told your boss, "I saw Bystander and he was not drunk today", you think that should be enough for your boss to fire you?
"I know you are telling me that you did not do it. I know she said to my wife you did it, and she is not pressing charges (which is probative of her lying and you telling the truth), and she is back with you. I am just going to fire you anyway. Your employment should improve your marriage."
I have a hard time believing a lot of retrospective hornfan posters would do what they are claiming they would do with only the knowledge Urban had (could be more than has been revealed, could be less) at the time.
"There is a rumor flying around about you. Sure you deny it and the person making the claim is not backing it up by pressing charges, but the existence of the rumor is good enough for me! You are fired!"
@bystander If I told your boss, "I saw Bystander and he was not drunk today", you think that should be enough for your boss to fire you?
Everything I heard yesterday the AD knew so what else was Urban to do? You just can't fire someone based on accusations. What is so hard about that to understand? This rush to judgement culture drives me crazy. If he did it then lock the guy up.
She could still press charges but she hasn't. I'm very curious why she prefers to fight a media and social media war three years later instead of filing charges now, then or any time. She's brave enough to do this so just file the charges already.
One of the reasons this is such a mess is because domestic abusers often rely on the "she did not press charges" defense. Second I have no doubt that mere accusations have ruined many. Our opinions often rest on our experiences in both types of situations. Frankly this forum will probably not sway this discussion.
However, something really bad happened here. A family has been destroyed and two children are involved.
If Urban did know, lied about it albeit to no one of consequences (us) and then admits he knew and reported it, what was done?
If the tOSU administration relied on the "she did not press charges" option, did not speak to her, did not investigate, or (even worse) put pressure on her not to come forward either directly or indirectly (through a booster or coaches wives) then someone(s) will need to be fired. What did the administration do? UM just put tOSU in the line of fire and not by accident. What did tOSU and UM do to convince themselves that Smith could stay? Sorry but not pressing charges may be "immature" but professionals familiar with domestic abuse have a different opinion. Some of these professionals work at tOSU.
Not saying their should be a rush to judgment, but in the three years since 2015 what did tOSU do to convince themselves that there was not a problem? That is the question and I am sorry but so far it is not forthcoming.
However, something really bad happened here. A family has been destroyed and two children are involved.
If Urban did know, lied about it albeit to no one of consequences (us) and then admits he knew and reported it, what was done?
If the tOSU administration relied on the "she did not press charges" option, did not speak to her, did not investigate, or (even worse) put pressure on her not to come forward either directly or indirectly (through a booster or coaches wives) then someone(s) will need to be fired. What did the administration do? UM just put tOSU in the line of fire and not by accident. What did tOSU and UM do to convince themselves that Smith could stay? Sorry but not pressing charges may be "immature" but professionals familiar with domestic abuse have a different opinion. Some of these professionals work at tOSU.
Not saying their should be a rush to judgment, but in the three years since 2015 what did tOSU do to convince themselves that there was not a problem? That is the question and I am sorry but so far it is not forthcoming.
Urban's mantra (stole from Switzer) - Just Win Babby!
Negatives originating from the program do not help winning so lie, cheat, steal to eliminate negatives.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_Angels_(film)
Not the best movie on its face, but pretty relevant to today’s media. Trying someone with a sensationalist media is never a good idea.
The problem is that neither the media nor tOSU is as qualified to try these cases as the justice system. If the justice system has been contacted and ultimately nothing comes of it by the victims free choice, no, college administrators should not get involved.
Now if it can be proven that pressure was put in our her, that is a different story.
However, this is what we have from the McMurphy article:
A few days after Zach’s 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith’s grandfather, de Fries is Meyer’s “life coach.”
A few days after Zach’s 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith’s grandfather, de Fries is Meyer’s “life coach.”
Bruce, who died in April, has a special place in Meyer’s heart. Bruce succeeded Woody Hayes at Ohio State from 1979-87, posting an 81-26-1 record in nine seasons.
“He is the strongest relationship I’ve ever had other than my father,” Meyer said last week. “I’ve made that clear many, many times.”
Bruce and Zach’s mother drove from Ohio to Gainesville to ask Courtney to drop the charges, Courtney said. Courtney said she also received a call from de Fries to set up a meeting at Panera Bread on SW Archer Road in Gainesville.
Meyer and de Fries’ relationship goes back more than 20 years, when Meyer was an assistant at Colorado State in the 1990s. Unofficially, de Fries has been a professional life skills expert the past two decades. His official title at Ohio State: special assistant to the head coach.
In “Urban’s Way,” a 2008 book on Meyer written by Buddy Martin and authorized by Meyer, Meyer said: “Hiram is like my uncle. Hiram is my ‘chemistry coach.’ When I was a young coach, I always said I wanted to have an older guy as the chemistry coach on my staff to help us all get on the same page.”
When asked last week how important de Fries was to the Ohio State program, senior offensive tackle Isaiah Prince said: “Having Coach Hiram around, he’s like the grandfather of the team. He’s got that wisdom. He has been here a long time and he has been through a lot. He always knows when something is wrong even when you don’t say anything. He’s a great resource to have. Everybody loves him.”
On a July morning in 2009, Courtney Smith sat across the table from de Fries, a former attorney and Shell Oil executive. Courtney said de Fries pressured her to drop the charges.
“He said ‘if you don’t drop the charges, Zach will never coach again,’ ” Courtney said. “ ‘He’s never hit you before. He was drinking. He’ll probably never do it again. You should think about giving him a second chance.’ “
Ultimately, Courtney said she relented to de Fries and didn’t press charges. Courtney had convinced herself this would never happen again.
She was wrong.
This part of the article is complete yellow journalism on par with the Australian media in the "dingo at my baby" case. This is why I call the article a "hack job" and remain skeptical until something is proven. The great thing about law school is it teaches you to cut through bull****. First, we do not know that these people went and pressured her, but let us take her word for it. McMurphy spends a lot of time here talking about how these men are friends with Meyer to set up the idea that Meyer was involved in a coverup or pressuring here without ever directly accusing him (because note he is smart enough to not directly accuse that when the evidence is not there backing it up). It is true these men are close to Meyer and it is indeed possible they set this up at Meyer's direction. However, these men are also friends with Zach Smith and each other (ONE IS HIS GRANDFATHER WHO MET WITH HER WITH HIS MOTHER) and, based on this evidence alone, it is far more probable any pressuring that happened originated amongst them and Zach Smith without Meyer's involvement. If Meyer was aware and his wife was texting her, and the texts are true, I doubt he would have supported his wife texting her to contact the police, which is quite the opposite of pressuring her to not press charges.
Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges.
Like I said, this line completely proves nothing when one of the men is the accused grandfather who was dealing with this with his mother and the other man is a friend of both the grandfather in the accused. They both are probably close friends with a fourth person and they are both probably in the same organization. Let's, for fun, assume they are in the America Football Coaches Association.
Courtney said two of members of the America Football Coaches Association – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges.
This makes it possible the America Football Coaches Association was involved in pressuring her. It that likely? No. Why? Because Hiram de Fries, Earle Bruce and Zach Smith have an independent relationship outside of Urban Meyer.
If it is shown that Urban Meyer did pressure her to keep quiet that couple with the Big Ten Media days would show a problem and my opinion would change. However, that has not been shown. Urban Meyer's wife's texts also do not support that.
Not the best movie on its face, but pretty relevant to today’s media. Trying someone with a sensationalist media is never a good idea.
The problem is that neither the media nor tOSU is as qualified to try these cases as the justice system. If the justice system has been contacted and ultimately nothing comes of it by the victims free choice, no, college administrators should not get involved.
Now if it can be proven that pressure was put in our her, that is a different story.
However, this is what we have from the McMurphy article:
A few days after Zach’s 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith’s grandfather, de Fries is Meyer’s “life coach.”
A few days after Zach’s 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith’s grandfather, de Fries is Meyer’s “life coach.”
Bruce, who died in April, has a special place in Meyer’s heart. Bruce succeeded Woody Hayes at Ohio State from 1979-87, posting an 81-26-1 record in nine seasons.
“He is the strongest relationship I’ve ever had other than my father,” Meyer said last week. “I’ve made that clear many, many times.”
Bruce and Zach’s mother drove from Ohio to Gainesville to ask Courtney to drop the charges, Courtney said. Courtney said she also received a call from de Fries to set up a meeting at Panera Bread on SW Archer Road in Gainesville.
Meyer and de Fries’ relationship goes back more than 20 years, when Meyer was an assistant at Colorado State in the 1990s. Unofficially, de Fries has been a professional life skills expert the past two decades. His official title at Ohio State: special assistant to the head coach.
In “Urban’s Way,” a 2008 book on Meyer written by Buddy Martin and authorized by Meyer, Meyer said: “Hiram is like my uncle. Hiram is my ‘chemistry coach.’ When I was a young coach, I always said I wanted to have an older guy as the chemistry coach on my staff to help us all get on the same page.”
When asked last week how important de Fries was to the Ohio State program, senior offensive tackle Isaiah Prince said: “Having Coach Hiram around, he’s like the grandfather of the team. He’s got that wisdom. He has been here a long time and he has been through a lot. He always knows when something is wrong even when you don’t say anything. He’s a great resource to have. Everybody loves him.”
On a July morning in 2009, Courtney Smith sat across the table from de Fries, a former attorney and Shell Oil executive. Courtney said de Fries pressured her to drop the charges.
“He said ‘if you don’t drop the charges, Zach will never coach again,’ ” Courtney said. “ ‘He’s never hit you before. He was drinking. He’ll probably never do it again. You should think about giving him a second chance.’ “
Ultimately, Courtney said she relented to de Fries and didn’t press charges. Courtney had convinced herself this would never happen again.
She was wrong.
This part of the article is complete yellow journalism on par with the Australian media in the "dingo at my baby" case. This is why I call the article a "hack job" and remain skeptical until something is proven. The great thing about law school is it teaches you to cut through bull****. First, we do not know that these people went and pressured her, but let us take her word for it. McMurphy spends a lot of time here talking about how these men are friends with Meyer to set up the idea that Meyer was involved in a coverup or pressuring here without ever directly accusing him (because note he is smart enough to not directly accuse that when the evidence is not there backing it up). It is true these men are close to Meyer and it is indeed possible they set this up at Meyer's direction. However, these men are also friends with Zach Smith and each other (ONE IS HIS GRANDFATHER WHO MET WITH HER WITH HIS MOTHER) and, based on this evidence alone, it is far more probable any pressuring that happened originated amongst them and Zach Smith without Meyer's involvement. If Meyer was aware and his wife was texting her, and the texts are true, I doubt he would have supported his wife texting her to contact the police, which is quite the opposite of pressuring her to not press charges.
Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges.
Like I said, this line completely proves nothing when one of the men is the accused grandfather who was dealing with this with his mother and the other man is a friend of both the grandfather in the accused. They both are probably close friends with a fourth person and they are both probably in the same organization. Let's, for fun, assume they are in the America Football Coaches Association.
Courtney said two of members of the America Football Coaches Association – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges.
This makes it possible the America Football Coaches Association was involved in pressuring her. It that likely? No. Why? Because Hiram de Fries, Earle Bruce and Zach Smith have an independent relationship outside of Urban Meyer.
If it is shown that Urban Meyer did pressure her to keep quiet that couple with the Big Ten Media days would show a problem and my opinion would change. However, that has not been shown. Urban Meyer's wife's texts also do not support that.
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Yea, can't believe this is being used as a reason to side with the Urban camp.
What was the reason given by Urban to fire Zach?
I haven't watched too much of the media so trying to figure out why he was fired if Urban says he didn't know about the beating Zach laid on her in 2015, and was already cleared for the 09 beat down?
Urban is obviously lying his *** off, but I still haven't decided if there's enough to fire him..........................yet.
I haven't watched too much of the media so trying to figure out why he was fired if Urban says he didn't know about the beating Zach laid on her in 2015, and was already cleared for the 09 beat down?
Urban is obviously lying his *** off, but I still haven't decided if there's enough to fire him..........................yet.
Not a reason to side with anyone, but a major impediment when nothing has been proven. If you want justice, TAKE IT TO COURT. If we want to punish someone, it needs to be proven. Accusations to the media, without proof, years after the fact is a terrible way to get justice. Our daughters need to be raised to go follow through and press charges if they are abused. We want a society where victims come forward to the proper authorities and justice is dispensed. We do not want a system where people chose not to use the justice system when they have ample opportunity and years after the fact throw out accusations without having to prove them. That system only emboldens yellow journalism and false accusations as a method for revenge for anyone, abused or not.
Domestic violence is a complicated issue and it is a huge problem to be solved. However, it is does not get solved in fair or reasonable manner outside of the justice system. We need to get victims of abuse to use the justice system. If we embolden them to use the court of public opinion and not the justice system, we also embolden yellow journalism and anyone who was never abused and wants to get back at their ex to tell lies.
If she is telling the truth and wants justice, she needs to press charges and let real authorities investigate.
She got a restraining order. She actually went and used the justice system. According to Meyer and Smith, the whole making the program look bad that many posters brought up above, is why Zach Smith has been fired. Nothing has been proven and no charges have been pressed, but the minute she actually took action with a court, Meyer did fire his employee. One could argue the employee should be on leave until something is proven and Meyer went too far. However, instead, it is being argued by the media and some here that Meyer did not go far enough waiting for some sort of actual legal action to happen and provide some sort of basis to rumors and accusations.
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
I think this world is full of victims. This doesn't sound like a victim. Had plenty of opportunities to call the police/press charges/walk out the door. I think some of these victims stay because the pay is too good. It's 2018, social media doesn't seem to allow privacy, in this day and age I think it's pretty damned stupid to just go "oh well, nothing I can do". The police in many (if not all) jurisdictions are required to arrest someone if they're called for domestic issues. The whole issue is going the next step and pressing charges. I hear what you're saying Moon, but I feel like society's enabling the "I can't take responsibility" people when it comes to this type of issue. It is ridiculous (my opinion) that anyone but the abused is responsible for protecting them from anyone (or themselves) when all of it can be fixed with a phone call and then (I'm assuming) a verbal or written accusation.
zuckercanyon
2,500+ Posts
it's not siding with a camp, it's making people stand up for themselves, especially someone that seems capable of using a phone and their words. Urban Meyer didn't beat her, her idiot husband did. Call the cops, press charges, don't hang up, quit being an idiot as well.
You're right. I take back saying that Urban beat her.
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