UK may vote to leave the European Union

Morrissey on Brexit:

“Almost two years on from the result, the EU still has not allowed the UK to leave its clutches – which simply explains exactly why the Leave campaigners voted as they did in the first place...
“I believe England can look after itself. It does not need the EU to police its laws, its thought, its borders or its liberty. It does not take a genius to arrive at this viewpoint.”​
 
DcG6gr9WkAk_TM0.jpg
 
Seattle Husker said:
The cheerleaders of the Brexit movement who joined May's government are now leaving. Boris Johnson (Foreign Minister) and David Davis (Secretary in charge of Negotiating the EU exit) have left their positions.

Both left complaining that Britain wasn't negotiating tough enough with the EU.
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The deal does look a bit one-sided, but I'm not sure what people were expecting. Leaving the EU but still trying to maintain the benefits of it is like a husband leaving his wife but expecting her to have sex with him twice a week after the divorce. That's a tough one to negotiate.

I favor Brexit and understand why they wanted to leave. However, as I said at the time, there are downsides to leaving. There are trade-offs to be weighed. And typical to modern politics, Leave pretended there were no downsides, and Remain pretended there was nothing but downsides and grossly overstated them. In other words, everybody lied.

The UK has a trade deficit with the EU, but that doesn't mean it's better off not trading with them at all. And of course, as a percentage, the trade between the UK and EU impacts the UK a lot more than the EU. In addition, plenty of Brits live and work in other EU countries and could have their lives disrupted in a big way. All of that means the stakes are higher for the UK, which gives the EU leverage. Furthermore, the EU has to play hardball, because if they don't, everybody who has an issue with them will leave.

I still think it's a smart move. I think it's foolish to sell your sovereignty and your culture for money, and if you've already done so and have a chance to take them back, you should. However, regaining control over your sovereignty and culture isn't free. It costs something. For most people, it costs blood and money through war to do that. For the UK, it's just going to cost money, which is preferable, but let's not pretend that it won't cost that.
 
MrD
I saw you bff Nigel Farage on Fox. He said he would have to go back to heading UKIP if May continues to weaken Brexit.
He makes more money now so for him to say that is interesting.Almost like he cares for his country and future than for the dough.
 
Horn6721 said:
MrD
I saw you bff Nigel Farage on Fox. He said he would have to go back to heading UKIP if May continues to weaken Brexit.
He makes more money now so for him to say that is interesting.Almost like he cares for his country and future than for the dough.
Click to expand...

He has a real commitment. It has defined his life's work, so the idea of half-assing it is an abomination to him. He wants a "good deal." But if he can't get one, he's willing to bolt and accept the consequences. To me, that's the principled stance to take.

It's also worth noting that Trump makes a difference. If a more globalist president (especially a Democrat) was in the White House, the UK would truly be on its own. I think Obama was being honest when he said they'd be at the "back of the queue." If Trump wants to, he can blunt the consequences of a so-called "hard Brexit" by giving the UK an overly favorable trade arrangement. Farage is certainly hoping for that. (He told us so.)
 
Mr. Deez said:
The deal does look a bit one-sided, but I'm not sure what people were expecting. Leaving the EU but still trying to maintain the benefits of it is like a husband leaving his wife but expecting her to have sex with him twice a week after the divorce. That's a tough one to negotiate.

I favor Brexit and understand why they wanted to leave. However, as I said at the time, there are downsides to leaving. There are trade-offs to be weighed. And typical to modern politics, Leave pretended there were no downsides, and Remain pretended there was nothing but downsides and grossly overstated them. In other words, everybody lied.

The UK has a trade deficit with the EU, but that doesn't mean it's better off not trading with them at all. And of course, as a percentage, the trade between the UK and EU impacts the UK a lot more than the EU. In addition, plenty of Brits live and work in other EU countries and could have their lives disrupted in a big way. All of that means the stakes are higher for the UK, which gives the EU leverage. Furthermore, the EU has to play hardball, because if they don't, everybody who has an issue with them will leave.

I still think it's a smart move. I think it's foolish to sell your sovereignty and your culture for money, and if you've already done so and have a chance to take them back, you should. However, regaining control over your sovereignty and culture isn't free. It costs something. For most people, it costs blood and money through war to do that. For the UK, it's just going to cost money, which is preferable, but let's not pretend that it won't cost that.
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Negotiation is about leverage. UK has little.
 
Seattle Husker said:
Negotiation is about leverage. UK has little.
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That's because we all pretty much assume that a "hard Brexit" would badly hurt the UK and not hurt the EU (at least hurt it much less). That's where the EU's leverage is coming from.

The only thing that the UK has in its favor is that the EU doesn't want that theory to be tested because if it is and the UK doesn't suffer a massive economic calamity, the EU will be exposed as an emperor with no clothes. If that happens, then the institution will fall apart. It won't happen abruptly, but it'll whither on the vine. Italy will leave. Other nations will start to push for major reforms and changes. If it does survive, it'll be a radically scaled back and humbler institution.
 
What's working against the UK is that barely more than 50% voted for Brexit, certainly no mandate. Based on some polls, the majority of Britains now support remaining in the EU. That's gives additional leverage to the EU negotiators when British negotiators lack popular support back home. Additionally, the fact that UK still wants to keep EU as an open market is completely untenable to giving them any leverage.

The EU's survival is dependent on making it painful to leave. If it's too easy expect others to follow suit.
 
SH
You make a good point which points to the EU being a less than wonderful deal for members.
If after all it was such a good deal why would any nation want to exit?
If it is so good for nations the EU wouldn't need to make it painful to leave.
 
Seattle Husker said:
What's working against the UK is that barely more than 50% voted for Brexit, certainly no mandate.
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If 80 percent had voted Leave, it wouldn't change the dynamic dramatically. The EU would still have every reason to make leaving painful.

Seattle Husker said:
That's gives additional leverage to the EU negotiators when British negotiators lack popular support back home.
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Do they really lack public support? Remainers opposed Brexit, but that doesn't mean they want a crappy deal for the UK when it leaves. Most Remainers are still patriotic citizens who want what's best for their country.

Seattle Husker said:
Additionally, the fact that UK still wants to keep EU as an open market is completely untenable to giving them any leverage.
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Absolutely true. If they want any kind of deal, they need to be willing to walk away from the table and accept a hard Brexit.

Seattle Husker said:
The EU's survival is dependent on making it painful to leave. If it's too easy expect others to follow suit.
Click to expand...

Definitely true, especially if they want to operate as they do now.
 
Horn6721 said:
If it is so good for nations the EU wouldn't need to make it painful to leave.
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I think people would be less hostile if the institution was more democratic (and therefore less arrogant). The people have so little power in the EU, and the leadership of the EU acts accordingly. Guys like Donald Tusk (president of the European Council) and Jean-Claude Junckers (president of the European Commission) are some of most smug and douchiest politicians I've ever seen. They really don't give a crap what your average European citizens wants and openly act like they don't give a crap.

In addition I think people are starting to view the EU (and especially the Euro) as an instrument of German dominance. It's all geared to benefit them. They aren't the only winners, but they are by far the biggest winners.
 
The people have so little power in the EU, and the leadership of the EU actsaccordingly. Guys like Donald Tusk (president of the European Council) and Jean-Claude Junckers (president of the European Commission) aresome of most smug and douchiest politicians I've ever seen. They really don't give a crap what your average European citizens wants and openly act like they don't give a crap.
Click to expand...

The EU = evolved European feudalism.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
 
Wow
Watching Trump and May presser.
If May And Trump are faking a good relationship they are better at it than I have ever seen.
Going to be hard for the MSM to say Trump is driving our allies away.

LOL Trump just refused to take a q from CNN in favor of Fox
 
Man I LOVE the Brits and their pomp.
Trump is now reviewing the troops while the Brit band plays all our service songs.
Queen directed Trump on what to do and he obeyed.
Great Stuff.
 
:whiteflag:
many MSM complained Trump disrespected the Queen by not bowing.
Even Obama did not bow to the Queen of the UK
but he did to this King
Obama-bowing-to-Burger-King.jpg
 
Horn6721 said:
:whiteflag:
many MSM complained Trump disrespected the Queen by not bowing.
Even Obama did not bow to the Queen of the UK
but he did to this King
Obama-bowing-to-Burger-King.jpg
Click to expand...
His administration always showed deference to the tranny community- after he was elected of course.
 
From the Mirror --

"Fifteen acid attacks take place in Britain every week, a Daily Mirror investigation has found.

And disturbingly, many involve children – both as victims, and as attackers.

We found one case where a child of just two years old was the target, and another carried out by a boy of six.

From January 2015 until May this year, there were a total of 2,602 such crimes – equivalent to 15 a week. Yet from 2007 to 2011, only 100 were logged in total....."​

Shocking number of acid attacks in Britain every week and many involve children

PROD-Adele-Bellis-acid-attack-victim.jpg
 
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