Russia attacking Ukraine 2/16?

Musburger1 said:
Hilary is done far worse to the United States than has Putin. Putin hasn't come close to destroying our representative democracy. Hilary? She's definitely made quite an impact.
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Bill and Hillary are two of the most corrupt people on the earth. Bill is a serial rapist. Hillary covered for him in Arkansas. I don't know about DC. They run a phony charitable organization. And if you don't like Putin, guess whose administration helped put him into power? Hint, hint.
 
OUBubba said:
Wikileaks, Gucifer (1.0 and 2.0???), Solar Winds, etc. What more do we need to see to be shown that Russia is a hostile force who needs to be cut off from the serious financial world. Cut off their money.
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That will surely convince Putin that the West is no threat to them. Just cut off their money so they will starve or freeze to death. We're the good guys!
 
Seattle Husker said:
Russia exports very little to the US and relatively nothing outside of energy resources to the West.
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They sell US farmers loads of potash. If you want food prices to double again or food shortages here at home, cut them off from trade. Starving poor Americans will really show Russia the US is boss!
 
Seattle Husker said:
"Good guys" is a bit of a myth. Nations act in their own self interest. I do believe that are better than most but we certainly aren't altruistic.
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But shouldn't be an excuse. You are correct though nations act in self interest. But really nations doesn't mean anything. What is really happening is individuals in the government and military are making decisions in their interest. Many of those decisions have a moral component.
 
Monahorns said:
But shouldn't be an excuse. You are correct though nations act in self interest. But really nations doesn't mean anything. What is really happening is individuals in the government and military are making decisions in their interest. Many of those decisions have a moral component.
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I'm not a deep state conspiracy guy. Are their elements of the military/military industrial complex that have influence over policy? Of course. Still, it's our elected leaders (and their administration) that make the decisions over foreign policy. They are our representatives. They are the US just as Putin is Russia.

You could point to the 2004 Orange Revolution as a trigger for this mess. Still, not much the US could have done to stop Russian aggression leading up to this point. They've consistently gotten more aggressive against the US since 2004 with their cyber warfare activities, Crimea and other engagements. Even during the mollycoddling Trump years where our POTUS openly fondled autocrats while chastising our own intelligence the hacking didn't dissipate.
 
Seattle Husker said:
They are the US just as Putin is Russia.
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I don't agree with that at all. The government is not the people. The leader of the government is definitely not the people. This is a strange abstraction of morphing real things and people into symbols.

Seattle Husker said:
Still, it's our elected leaders (and their administration) that make the decisions over foreign policy
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Most of the administrative state is not elected. None of the military is elected. None of the intelligence organizations are elected. Most policy carries over from one President to the next which shows they aren't directing it.

Seattle Husker said:
They've consistently gotten more aggressive against the US since 2004 with their cyber warfare activities, Crimea and other engagements.
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Why do you consider Russia taking over Crimea as aggression against the US? They didn't do that against any American. They did that against Ukraine?
 
Monahorns said:
I don't agree with that at all. The government is not the people. The leader of the government is definitely not the people. This is a strange abstraction of morphing real things and people into symbols.
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We live in a Representative Democracy. I fully understand that a libertarian may not feel represented, maybe doesn't want to be represented but that's the government we have for the moment. 1/6 almost changed that but Pence did his patriotic duty and didn't play along.

Monahorns said:
Most of the administrative state is not elected. None of the military is elected. None of the intelligence organizations are elected. Most policy carries over from one President to the next which shows they aren't directing it.
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We live in a Representative Democracy. The Executive Branch of which all those people roll up to is led by elected representatives or their appointed individuals. Policy carries over often because it's slow to change a big bureaucracy and yo-yo diplomacy ideals don't favor an advancement of our national interests. Consistency is what allows for the strength of Nato, coalitions like we saw in Gulf War 1 and a hegemony that outlasted our foes by decades, so far. Alliances/trade partnerships established over decades are much stronger than any single administration can muster. That's what was so atrociously wrong with Trump's foreign policy.

Monahorns said:
Why do you consider Russia taking over Crimea as aggression against the US? They didn't do that against any American. They did that against Ukraine?
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Haven't we already established that the US, West and many other countries have interests in Ukraine, just like Russia? You can't say that the CIA was involved in the Orange Revolution then concurrently claim the Crimea invasion didn't impact the US. A company that recently merged with my own has development offices throughout Eastern Europe, 6 alone in Ukraine. All were established after 2004. With US imperialism, there isn't much that goes on around the world that doesn't impact us in some way. As one of the preeminent world leaders even a coup in Burma, for example, the world looks to the US as to how to respond.
 
Seattle Husker said:
We live in a Representative Democracy. I fully understand that a libertarian may not feel represented, maybe doesn't want to be represented but that's the government we have for the moment. 1/6 almost changed that but Pence did his patriotic duty and didn't play along.
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Legal representation is different than equating the two or identifying the two so closely.

Seattle Husker said:
We live in a Representative Democracy. The Executive Branch of which all those people roll up to is led by elected representatives or their appointed individuals. Policy carries over often because it's slow to change a big bureaucracy and yo-yo diplomacy ideals don't favor an advancement of our national interests. Consistency is what allows for the strength of Nato, coalitions like we saw in Gulf War 1 and a hegemony that outlasted our foes by decades, so far. Alliances/trade partnerships established over decades are much stronger than any single administration can muster. That's what was so atrociously wrong with Trump's foreign policy.
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You say all that and still don't disprove the fact that most of those building and implementing policy are unelected and unaccountable to the people.

Seattle Husker said:
Haven't we already established that the US, West and many other countries have interests in Ukraine, just like Russia? You can't say that the CIA was involved in the Orange Revolution then concurrently claim the Crimea invasion didn't impact the US. A company that recently merged with my own has development offices throughout Eastern Europe, 6 alone in Ukraine. All were established after 2004. With US imperialism, there isn't much that goes on around the world that doesn't impact us in some way. As one of the preeminent world leaders even a coup in Burma, for example, the world looks to the US as to how to respond.
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Not really. The level of interest the US should have about Ukraine should be infinitesimal compared to Russia, Belarus, Poland, and Romania.

I don't equate the CIA foreign interests to American security. I also don't equate opening up business offices in other countries as imperialism. Or at least I don't think imperialism is needed to have foreign trade and international companies.
 
It appears Seattle Husker isn’t familiar with the concept “regulatory capture.” Our elected official exercise oversight of these bureaucracies about as much as I do. Hell, the entities these agencies are suppose to monitor run these very same agencies.Representative Democracy. What a joke that has become.
 
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Mus
I think you have the wrong name.
TexNSeattle ( A Horn ) is quite astute

BTW you know I don't always agree with you BUT your insight in this subject is really appreciated
 
Seattle Husker said:
1/6 almost changed that but Pence did his patriotic duty and didn't play along.
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You are still hiding in a fetal position in the corner of your mom's basement over Jan 6th. Go ahead and explain how we almost lost our Republic. Lay out the steps that the hoards
of Capitol invaders would have taken to control our country. Once you try to do that mental exercise, you will realize how silly you sound.
 
Monahorns said:
Legal representation is different than equating the two or identifying the two so closely.



You say all that and still don't disprove the fact that most of those building and implementing policy are unelected and unaccountable to the people.



Not really. The level of interest the US should have about Ukraine should be infinitesimal compared to Russia, Belarus, Poland, and Romania.

I don't equate the CIA foreign interests to American security. I also don't equate opening up business offices in other countries as imperialism. Or at least I don't think imperialism is needed to have foreign trade and international companies.
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How is Ukraine LESS important than Belarus, Poland, or Romania?
 
Musburger1 said:
It appears Seattle Husker isn’t familiar with the concept “regulatory capture.” Our elected official exercise oversight of these bureaucracies about as much as I do. Hell, the entities these agencies are suppose to monitor run these very same agencies.Representative Democracy. What a joke that has become.
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Regulatory capture refers to industry people getting control over agencies that regulate their industry. It is why government regulation causes more negatives than positives. But the idea that agencies follow their own specific interests and not those of the people or the government in general follows.
 
Monahorns said:
Regulatory capture refers to industry people getting control over agencies that regulate their industry. It is why government regulation causes more negatives than positives. But the idea that agencies follow their own specific interests and not those of the people or the government in general follows.
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I don't have time to listen to the whole thing either so below is a summary from the Saker blog (a pro-russian analytical blog, but the author resides in Florida). Note at the end, Putin is expected to announce later today his decision of whether or not to recognize the two breakaway Republics. If so, I suspect this will be used for justification of Russian troops to enter those Republics. That doesn't mean Russia will attack, but it will create the argument of whether this constitutes an invasion because the Republics are part of Ukraine. Russia will say no because they are independent. The US will say yes. This is similar to what happened with Crimea. The only difference is that Russia will most likely not annex the two regions. Then come the sanctions and whatever will follow.

Putin: The purpose of today’s Security Council meeting is to determine steps on Donbass, bearing in mind the appeal of the DPR and the LPR to recognize their sovereignty

Putin: There is a threat that Kiev will begin retaking Crimea, since they do not recognize its entry into the Russian Federation and NATO will join these events

Donbass Negotiations Have Hit ‘Rock Bottom’ – Russian Security Council

The dep. head of Russia’s presidential admin told President Putin that Ukraine and its Western allies don’t need the breakaway regions of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Dmitry Kozak added that the Normandy Format process and Minsk agreements have had “zero” results – despite last minute negotiations.

Kozak added they want changes to the 2015 format, that contradict the previous agreement. “They don’t want to bring Donbass back to Ukraine.”

US NATO/Ukraine position “has changed” – Macron to Putin

President Putin spoke to French counterpart Emmanuel Macron until 2am yesterday, who revealed there had been changes in the American position over Ukraine’s NATO admission – but apparently wouldn’t reveal what the changes were.

President Biden had told Putin that a moratorium was possible on Ukraine’s accession to NATO, even though Putin noted this was not a concession.

FM Sergey Lavrov added that Russia will seek an answer from the West to the main question about the non-expansion of NATO to the east at the Russian Security Council meeting.

Russian Defense Chief Shoigu: Almost 60K Ukrainian military personnel concentrated near the borders of the Republics of Lugansk & Donetsk

Medvedev: “Donbass a bargaining chip”

The Deputy Chairman of the Security Council has said Kiev doesn’t need Donbass or the implementation of the Minsk agreements, it could prevent President Zelensky’s re-election.

Russian Security Council recommends recognizing separatist republics of DPR and LPR

Deputy Chairman Dmitry Medvedev recommended Russia recognize the republics of Donetsk and Lugansk after their leaders appealed directly to President Putin earlier Monday.

The State Duma confirmed it backs this decision over security concerns – stating it believes Kiev is “freezing the process”

1.2 million residents of Donbass have applied for Russian citizenship – Speaker of State Duma

President Putin to make decision on recognition of Donbass Republics later on Monday​
 
Expand NATO! Let Putin get the *** kicking he's afraid of if he carries out his plan. Hell, he can't even manage Russia worth a damn. He doesn't need to expand.
 
iatrogenic said:
Expand NATO! Let Putin get the *** kicking he's afraid of if he carries out his plan. Hell, he can't even manage Russia worth a damn. He doesn't need to expand.
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In my view, if there is any country that needs to pursue imperialistic tendencies for domestic political power, it's Russia. What do they have? Oil & gas and nuclear warheads.

The Russian Bear is Putin. The macho Russian man is what he sells. They are so incredibly prideful; witness how they defend their cheating ways to the death. They have a some sort of complex that they must be seen as superior to everyone. But they bring virtually nothing to the table beyond the arts and clearly great athletes. So it appears that Putin must wag the dog...
 
Should just disband NATO at this point. It was created to fight communist revolution in Europe. That doesn't exist anymore.
 
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