Welp, that still sounds like a Death Panel Inquisition of sorts. Just with a different set of Inquisitors… (with beliefs that conflict with the earlier example).
Rolovich fired for vaccine refusal
- Thread starter Chop
- Start date
That was the Swedish approach. At first it looked like a big failure, but I think the results turned out to be about equal to most other nations.
If you’re burning with anger about all this, place your anger on the ones who caused all this—Red China. This whole pandemic and all associated clusterf&@$ started in Wuhan, and you can thank the CCP.
Different nations and health providers are struggling with difficult decisions—all brought to the World by Chairman Xi’s outfit. Same outfit Chairman Mao used to run.
And over there, we saw the response of the hard left wing: nail shut the doors of infected persons and let them die—without care.
Different nations and health providers are struggling with difficult decisions—all brought to the World by Chairman Xi’s outfit. Same outfit Chairman Mao used to run.
And over there, we saw the response of the hard left wing: nail shut the doors of infected persons and let them die—without care.
How many funerals were not attended or loved ones not allowed to say goodbye before someone died at the hospital?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
"Freedom" isn't absolute. Where to draw the line when your freedom puts my life in jeopardy? Isn't that the consistent clash?
We limit all kinds of "freedoms" around automobiles and the ability to drive to limit the harm we can do to each other or even ensure remuneration (liability insurance) should you harm me. Couldn't asking someone to put on a mask be the equivalent of forcing all cars to have airbags or everyone to wear a seatbelt? How about you can't drive without liability insurance? I've long ago said that gun owners should be required to have liability insurance to ensure they are responsible for that gun being used for anything other than hunting/sporting.
Let's put this in the hand of the insurance companies. Let them based their health rates on vaccination status, no different than smokers or obesity (rare) being a health factor.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
All of history? Have you followed the Asian countries the last several decades? In Japan if you feel ill at all there is societal pressure to wear a mask to protect the collective. Whereas we focus on the individual over the society they are just the opposite. Somewhere there has to be a happy medium, right?
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
That's not true - no medial outfit would deny care for any unvaccinated illegal alien with the Wuhan - just to US citizens.
Virus gonna virus.
Duck Dodgers
1,000+ Posts
Yep, who would have thought the Swedes would have had the best response to the Wuhan.
They did no mandates, and are in the middle of the pack for deaths, all without ruining anyone's business and life savings, stupid dirty sock over the face mandates, or freedom and privacy vaccine passports.
COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
They did no mandates, and are in the middle of the pack for deaths, all without ruining anyone's business and life savings, stupid dirty sock over the face mandates, or freedom and privacy vaccine passports.
COVID-19 deaths per capita by country | Statista
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
No. You're lot consistently draws the line across people's throats, you don't get to moralize. Your whole comment was about how Conservatives were de facto death squads by disagreeing with mandates. My comment has nothing to do with put other people at risk. Everyone's life is at risk at all times. But the ethical, moral position is to let individual assess their own risk and choose to act accordingly.
What I put into my body is a "freedom". Dang dude, you are going to get me kicked off this forum.
Prior violation of rights doesn't justify present or future violation of rights. But driving has never been described as a right. It is specifically described as a privilege. Me breathing in air isn't a privilege. Me putting a chemically active substance into my body isn't a privilege.
About gun insurance, nonsense is nonsense no matter what subject it is applied to.
They can do whatever they want. They are a private business charging for a service. I am okay with them doing what they need to do to be profitable AS LONG AS no government or public-private entity forces them or pressures them to do so. They do economic calculations of the highest order to set rates. Let market competition determine the rates and I am fine with it.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Okay Western history. Who cares about Asia? That is a very backward, dark continent.
AC
2,500+ Posts
Most conservatives rooted for vehemently protecting nursing homes and the most vulnerable! I’m sure Chop agrees. Then many conservatives rooted for natural immunity for the rest of us. Especially now that we know Dr Fauci! it was liberal Governor's that sent Covid victims into nursing homes. So saying Chop was calloused to vulnerable groups, is a straw man argument! All you do is try to make all conservatives look bad. Are you a bot? I’ll bet there are no Cornhuskers in Seattle!
Not confused at all. Liberals are advocating death panels and refusing medical service to some. I directly addressed a post and you come in with sideways swipes about unvaccinated people which has NOTHING to do with the comments I made. I'm not confused at all.
I definitely agree with protecting nursing home/assisted living facility residents in the pandemic. That was one area that was f-ed up more than just about any other in this whole pandemic. Not just in New York State, but all over the place. Many of the most-likely-to-die ended up dead due to the negligence of the operators and insane State mandates to take in infected persons from the hospitals. I bet those responsible for all those deaths wish they got a "do-over" on that one...
I hate the idea of death panels. Whether it be in a national health agency or an insurance company.
The difficult question I have no good answer to is: "Then how do we determine who gets care when there aren't enough resources to care for all." I think doctors and nurses on the ER floor were having to make those difficult decisions--a form of triage I suppose. Probably better them making those difficult decisions than some guys in suits at the government or the insurance company.
Some would say--whoever has the most $$$ to pay for it gets the care. The others are SOL. That's not my opinion though.
The difficult question I have no good answer to is: "Then how do we determine who gets care when there aren't enough resources to care for all." I think doctors and nurses on the ER floor were having to make those difficult decisions--a form of triage I suppose. Probably better them making those difficult decisions than some guys in suits at the government or the insurance company.
Some would say--whoever has the most $$$ to pay for it gets the care. The others are SOL. That's not my opinion though.
We don't force all cars to have airbags. We don't FORCE everyone to wear a seatbelt. You are not kept off of the road or not allowed to register a vehicle if you lack an airbag or the driver opts not to wear a belt, if the car is even equipped with them...and yes, there ARE still cars on the road that don't have them. Some only have a lap belt.
Your gun owner insurance idea lacks water since that is only a corporate profit grab with a concurrent side of an effort to create databases of who actually owns weapons. The responsible gun owners already HAVE coverage through other policies they hold.
That works, especially since Obummercare priced me out of the health insurance and I self-fund. This is one of the rare moments of lucid and cogent thought you have proffered here...and it eliminates mandates that the feds cannot even promulgate a rule for yet wants local businesses to enforce.
Not sure if you're being funny or serious here.
If serious, when's the last time you've been to Tokyo?
No offense to where you live, but it's likely a backwater compared to Tokyo.
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The print media weighs in:
WSU leaders make good call in firing Rolovich
Fans share wide range of emotions on Rolovich firing at WSU game
David Shapiro: Nick Rolovich’s attempted pass on vaccine mandate falls incomplete
A Coach’s Vaccine Refusal Generates Discord at Washington State
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/18/nick-rolovich-washington-state-fired-covid-mandate/
Letter: Hypocrite Rolovich wasn't worth what he cost us
WSU leaders make good call in firing Rolovich
Fans share wide range of emotions on Rolovich firing at WSU game
David Shapiro: Nick Rolovich’s attempted pass on vaccine mandate falls incomplete
A Coach’s Vaccine Refusal Generates Discord at Washington State
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2021/10/18/nick-rolovich-washington-state-fired-covid-mandate/
Letter: Hypocrite Rolovich wasn't worth what he cost us
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The lawsuit's coming:
Lawyer for Nick Rolovich calls WSU coach's firing 'unjust and unlawful'
Nick Rolovich plans lawsuit vs. WSU over COVID vaccine mandate firing
"Pope Francis and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have stated that all COVID-19 vaccines are morally acceptable and that Catholics have a duty, responsibility or obligation to be vaccinated. However, some Catholics still oppose vaccination."
"— We’re not sure how deep Rolovich’s religious convictions run, but we hear Pope Francis is a pretty religious guy. He not only approves of the COVID vaccine but has advocated for it."
Chop's 2 pesos (and that's about what it's worth...):
Courts should reject the reasoning that, because a person is a member of a certain denomination, he or she must share all the official doctrinal beliefs of that denomination. A person's religious beliefs are often deeply personal, and while he may believe in the core beliefs of his denomination, he may also have his own personal religious beliefs that differ from some official dogma or another. That sounds like Rolovich's situation. To hold otherwise, means the freedom of religion only applies to the official stated dogma of formal, organized religion. That cannot be the law.
And here's the real reason for the firing...at the end of the day: "Defying Inslee’s order in any fashion could have massive political and financial ramifications for the university."
Lawyer for Nick Rolovich calls WSU coach's firing 'unjust and unlawful'
Nick Rolovich plans lawsuit vs. WSU over COVID vaccine mandate firing
"Pope Francis and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have stated that all COVID-19 vaccines are morally acceptable and that Catholics have a duty, responsibility or obligation to be vaccinated. However, some Catholics still oppose vaccination."
"— We’re not sure how deep Rolovich’s religious convictions run, but we hear Pope Francis is a pretty religious guy. He not only approves of the COVID vaccine but has advocated for it."
Chop's 2 pesos (and that's about what it's worth...):
Courts should reject the reasoning that, because a person is a member of a certain denomination, he or she must share all the official doctrinal beliefs of that denomination. A person's religious beliefs are often deeply personal, and while he may believe in the core beliefs of his denomination, he may also have his own personal religious beliefs that differ from some official dogma or another. That sounds like Rolovich's situation. To hold otherwise, means the freedom of religion only applies to the official stated dogma of formal, organized religion. That cannot be the law.
And here's the real reason for the firing...at the end of the day: "Defying Inslee’s order in any fashion could have massive political and financial ramifications for the university."
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Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Chop, if we had a truly free market medical industry the supply of care would expand to meet demand. The system we have is already restricted in supply due to government control and regulation.
Not only would the supply grow for the current treatments we have, if the medical industry was left alone, they would innovate and gain efficiency much more rapidly bringing costs down for everyone.
Government control gives you death panels regardless of what they are called or who makes the decision. The market provides care. For a price sure. But for an ever lowering price and increasing quality.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Sure. I was talking about Asia generally. I am correct on that. There are Westernized parts of Asia, most notably Japan and South Korea that are fine places. I agree.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
My sons attend WSU. The fanbase is split on the firing but that generally falls along political fault lines. Those that reside in Eastern Washington are more conservative and fight any mandates. Many would trend towards vaccine denier positions that color some posts on the West Mall. Meanwhile, lots of kids attend from Western Washington and California which are as blue as the sky, obviously. They support the vaccine mandate and applaud the decision.
Rolovich appears to be getting the exact same treatment as any other WSU employee, which is good. Not sure if the lawsuit has been filed yet but Rolovich's attorney is trying to say that the AD/Pres have a bias against Rolovich. Of course, the lawyer admitted that his exemption was denied by a committee that neither we a part of and even if the exemption was approved that accommodations would be impossible. Washington is an at-will employment state so I'd be surprised if Rolo has a leg to stand on with this lawsuit. More likely he's hoping the University will settle out-of-court allowing him to recoup some of his lost future earnings. That depends on how much hardball WSU wants to play. Keep in mind, their Athletic Department is ~$40M under water.
Got it.
IMHO, Japan is a great place, especially the Tokyo/Yokohama metro area (spent a lot of time there) and the natural areas. More technologically advanced, and much cleaner than us, or pretty much any other country. My ROK experiences gave me the perception that S. Korea is sort of a "Japan light" with the lingering feel of a nationwide military camp. I doubt they'd like that description, but that was my take on it. India is an exceedingly fascinating place to me that I'd like to go sometime, but "clean" probably isn't the first word that comes to mind when I think of that country (outside the really nice areas) ... But clean streets or dirty streets, we should cultivate an alliance with India--a rising superpower with an abundance of high-intelligence people. They also really, really hate Red China.
But tying it back to the topic, those 3 nations' response to Coronavirus:
ROK: one of the most effective in the world in minimizing the virus
Japan: same
India: Byzantine would be a generous description of their Coronavirus response; chaotic; inadequate; they could use some help on infectious disease mitigation. I find it a bit ironic, as they have so many good doctors.
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I prefer keeping politics out of sports as much as possible. If someone like Karl Marx repeatedly led us to the playoffs and the national championships in football, then he'd make a great coach. Just keep the political talk out of it.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
My BIL lives in Japan so I get some 2nd hand info from him. Why do you think ROK and Japan have been so effective? Japan in particular was very late in adopting the vaccine though they are charging hard now.
My .02. Both ROK and Japan have a bit more collectivist culture. Mask wearing for them was already part of the culture. They don't wear them to protect themselves as much as the people around them. So, all the recommendations to limit the spread (mask-up, social distancing) were natural to those cultures.
Additionally, they don't have the obesity issues that the US has. Still, their populations are significantly older so they had that going against them. My BIL's wife lost 2 grandparents to COVID in Japan. Still, there is a reverence and desire to protect their elders that simply is on another level compared to the US. Those countries largely house their elderly with family rather than nursing homes which also is a factor in their favor.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I need explain myself too. I don't dislike Asia or Asians. I was responding to SH and let my fervor get the best of me. There are aspects of culture in various countries which I admire. I love all people from all backgrounds, and ultimately see them as individuals who are totally unique to themselves.
I just can't accept a statement that Americans should be forced to wear masks by government because it is a common thing in Asian countries.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Even if it's proving to be effective in dense populations for ROK and Japan? Notice I'm leaving out China. What they did to Wuhan in locking everyone in their homes and delivering food for hundreds of thousands of people should never be considered in the US.
Keep in mind, it's not just Masking that ROK and Japan have done with success against Covid but that's part of it. The difference is that Japan didn't even have to mandate masks. The entire population did it on it's own to protect everyone. As evidence by this very thread, we don't have that level of collectivism in the US. Protecting others from Covid is always someone else's job...their nursing home, that particular individual, etc.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
It isn't. Try again.
Are you sure that's the chart you want to use? 6500 peak daily cases in Japan at ~1/3rd the population would correlate to 19,500 peak daily cases in the US. Unfortunately, the US peaked in Dec. 20 at ~300k daily new cases.
Fun with numbers. What is that chart attempting to show? That spread can still occur with high mask compliance? Has that ever been in doubt? I'd argue the scope of the spread (your Y axis) is critical. If you were to overlay Japan and the US, accounting for population, Japan would be a speed bump in comparison to the mountain of US for peak spread. That actually bolsters my case.
As of today Japan has 1.7M confirmed cases and 18k deaths. If you point to the prolific US testing their test rates are higher than the US.
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