President Biden Accountability Thread

Sangre Naranjada said:
Death penalty vs never out of prison?
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Sangre, I do see a difference here. A federal jury weighed the evidence against each of the defendants, found each guilty, and agreed that each deserved the death penalty. The death penalty is legal for federal crimes. Biden decided to override the judgment of federal prosecutors and juries - if he had done so for two or three of them, I might see the thinking. But 37 is clearly a political statement - no doubt the Constitution gives POTUS the Pardon power, but IMO Biden abused it for political impact. Just my two cents.
 
HornHuskerDad said:
Sangre, I do see a difference here. A federal jury weighed the evidence against each of the defendants, found each guilty, and agreed that each deserved the death penalty. The death penalty is legal for federal crimes. Biden decided to override the judgment of federal prosecutors and juries - if he had done so for two or three of them, I might see the thinking. But 37 is clearly a political statement - no doubt the Constitution gives POTUS the Pardon power, but IMO Biden abused it for political impact. Just my two cents.
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HHD,
I have no quarrel with your point of view, and in fact just a few years ago I would have been quite outraged myself. But in the intervening time I have considered the merits of death vs life in prison without parole, and, informed primarily by Catholic principles, I have come to the conclusion that our proper place as a society is to allow a man his natural lifespan to repent (this doesn't mean he gets out of prison), and to make what amends he can to his victims and God.

My position has undergone a thorough evolution for sure, and with respect to the prosecutors and juries involved in the death penalty decision, I hope they are understanding of Biden's action (even if it was undertaken for cynical political ends).
 
Sangre Naranjada said:
HHD,
I have no quarrel with your point of view, and in fact just a few years ago I would have been quite outraged myself. But in the intervening time I have considered the merits of death vs life in prison without parole, and, informed primarily by Catholic principles, I have come to the conclusion that our proper place as a society is to allow a man his natural lifespan to repent (this doesn't mean he gets out of prison), and to make what amends he can to his victims and God.

My position has undergone a thorough evolution for sure, and with respect to the prosecutors and juries involved in the death penalty decision, I hope they are understanding of Biden's action (even if it was undertaken for cynical political ends).
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I grok what you’re saying as long as the prisoner pays in full for all expenses of incarceration. Work with pay in prison. Refusal to work would mean execution. We can’t afford it with all the federal debt.
 
Sangre Naranjada said:
I have come to the conclusion that our proper place as a society is to allow a man his natural lifespan to repent (this doesn't mean he gets out of prison), and to make what amends he can to his victims and God.
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I had never thought of the first point. It is merciful. The death penalty for murder isn't somehow anti-Christian though. God institutes it in Genesis.

The second point would be another good reason for life imprisonment. However, victims don't receive any restitution in criminal cases. The state enacts justice as if they suffered the injustice. I am for significant change to the justice system so that all restitution is aimed at helping the victims.
 
Monahorns said:
The second point would be another good reason for life imprisonment. However, victims don't receive any restitution in criminal cases. The state enacts justice as if they suffered the injustice. I am for significant change to the justice system so that all restitution is aimed at helping the victims.
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I have no problem with greater restitution, but the state still needs to imprison violent offenders to protect the public.
 
WTH is going on?? A second Super Hornet had to evade a missile fired from the USS Gettysburg.
www.foxnews.com

Second US Navy fighter jet narrowly avoided being shot down in 'friendly fire' incident: source

An F/A-18 Super Hornet – flying a few miles behind the Hornet that was shot down in a "friendly fire" incident over the Red Sea – took evasive maneuvers after a second surface-to-air missile was fired from the cruiser USS Gettysburg, a source with knowledge of the incident tells Fox News.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
 
Horn6721 said:
WTH is going on?? A second Super Hornet had to evade a missile fired from the USS Gettysburg.
www.foxnews.com

Second US Navy fighter jet narrowly avoided being shot down in 'friendly fire' incident: source

An F/A-18 Super Hornet – flying a few miles behind the Hornet that was shot down in a "friendly fire" incident over the Red Sea – took evasive maneuvers after a second surface-to-air missile was fired from the cruiser USS Gettysburg, a source with knowledge of the incident tells Fox News.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
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Navy is just trying to maintain their dominance......

Navy blasts Air Force
 
Mr. Deez said:
I have no problem with greater restitution, but the state still needs to imprison violent offenders to protect the public.
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I don't disagree. But imprisonment doesn't pay back anything it prevents future crime. Two different issues that a justice system should address.
 
HornHuskerDad said:
Sangre, I do see a difference here. A federal jury weighed the evidence against each of the defendants, found each guilty, and agreed that each deserved the death penalty. The death penalty is legal for federal crimes. Biden decided to override the judgment of federal prosecutors and juries - if he had done so for two or three of them, I might see the thinking. But 37 is clearly a political statement - no doubt the Constitution gives POTUS the Pardon power, but IMO Biden abused it for political impact. Just my two cents.
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He abused it to show he and his handlers are indeed above the law.
 
Monahorns said:
I don't disagree. But imprisonment doesn't pay back anything it prevents future crime. Two different issues that a justice system should address.
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Well, that runs into the same challenges that the civil justice system runs into. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. You'd have to greatly expand the scope of liability or indemnity, and it would lead to some pretty unfair outcomes at times.
 
Sangre Naranjada said:
HHD,
I have no quarrel with your point of view, and in fact just a few years ago I would have been quite outraged myself. But in the intervening time I have considered the merits of death vs life in prison without parole, and, informed primarily by Catholic principles, I have come to the conclusion that our proper place as a society is to allow a man his natural lifespan to repent (this doesn't mean he gets out of prison), and to make what amends he can to his victims and God.

My position has undergone a thorough evolution for sure, and with respect to the prosecutors and juries involved in the death penalty decision, I hope they are understanding of Biden's action (even if it was undertaken for cynical political ends).
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This is interesting and maybe even persuasive on the topic of how an individual should believe, or how legislatures should enact laws. What, though, about the topic of whether the outgoing president can simply substitute his personal opinion on an important legal matter such as this in place of the existing law, which is a result of millions of past decision makers, including voters, constitutional delegates and ratifiers, prosecutors, judges, juries, political writers, media, Supreme Court justices, law school professors, etc etc. We are where we are based upon the confluence and compromise of all of this. Is it right for one man to nullify all of that?

So, if you are right, and maybe you are, is this one of the (hopefully rare or nonexistent) times where the end is so important that any means are justified to disregard proper process to change law or culture?
 
Mr. Deez said:
Well, that runs into the same challenges that the civil justice system runs into. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. You'd have to greatly expand the scope of liability or indemnity, and it would lead to some pretty unfair outcomes at times.
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A lifetime of indentured servitude would be nice.
 
VYFan said:
So, if you are right, and maybe you are, is this one of the (hopefully rare or nonexistent) times where the end is so important that any means are justified to disregard proper process to change law or culture?
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IMO - if we are a nation governed by laws, it's improper for any individual to nullify the effect of the law. Congress enacts laws, the Executive branch carries out laws, and the Judiciary branch interprets laws. If the federal death penalty provisions in our current laws are offensive, then use the proper process to change the law. Biden substituted his personal opinion for the due process - not the right answer.
 
VYFan said:
So, if you are right, and maybe you are, is this one of the (hopefully rare or nonexistent) times where the end is so important that any means are justified to disregard proper process to change law or culture?
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that is the same 'logic' some are using to give Mangione a pass on murdering a CEO just because they don't like how an insurance company operates...it doesn't work for that and it doesn't excuse Biden placing himself above the law.
 
HornHuskerDad said:
IMO - if we are a nation governed by laws, it's improper for any individual to nullify the effect of the law. Congress enacts laws, the Executive branch carries out laws, and the Judiciary branch interprets laws. If the federal death penalty provisions in our current laws are offensive, then use the proper process to change the law. Biden substituted his personal opinion for the due process - not the right answer.
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Right—obviously I agree with you agreeing with me…. Although to state a nuance: Biden DOES have this legal authority within his proper powers; I am just saying that I think it is not being used wisely, because he apparently is basing his pardons on opposition to the LAW, not concern about facts of certain cases. Everyone on all sides should realize that these policies will end up used by all parties—for example, Trump could decide to pardon ever single conviction by a particular democrat federal judge he decides he doesn’t like, or whatever. I am generally against creeping powers in these undefined areas.

Edit—and, because these pardons are almost always in the last days of a lame duck presidency, they don’t face electoral consequences.
 
VYFan said:
Right—obviously I agree with you agreeing with me…. Although to state a nuance: Biden DOES have this legal authority within his proper powers; I am just saying that I think it is not being used wisely, because he apparently is basing his pardons on opposition to the LAW, not concern about facts of certain cases. Everyone on all sides should realize that these policies will end up used by all parties—for example, Trump could decide to pardon ever single conviction by a particular democrat federal judge he decides he doesn’t like, or whatever. I am generally against creeping powers in these undefined areas.

Edit—and, because these pardons are almost always in the last days of a lame duck presidency, they don’t face electoral consequences.
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One more edit to my own post: we have zillions of criminals walking the streets who should be imprisoned or at least prosecuted, and presidential pardons are not any meaningful percentage of why bad guys are going free. Or in this case, imprisoned instead of executed. So, the issue is really more of theoretical interest than practical, if the concern is crime. I do think the theory matters, though, as to not honoring the legal and political process.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Well, that runs into the same challenges that the civil justice system runs into. You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. You'd have to greatly expand the scope of liability or indemnity, and it would lead to some pretty unfair outcomes at times.
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Yeah. No human institution will have perfect outcomes.
 
mchammer said:
A lifetime of indentured servitude would be nice.
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Not lifetime. There has to be a finite quantity to incentivize actually paying the victim or victim's family back. Maybe for some crimes the repayment would last for life. But I think the victim should get a say in what the repayment is with some legally approved limits.

Indentured servitude exists today in prisons. The 14th amendment comments on this.
 
VYFan said:
Right—obviously I agree with you agreeing with me…. Although to state a nuance: Biden DOES have this legal authority within his proper powers; I am just saying that I think it is not being used wisely, because he apparently is basing his pardons on opposition to the LAW, not concern about facts of certain cases. Everyone on all sides should realize that these policies will end up used by all parties—for example, Trump could decide to pardon ever single conviction by a particular democrat federal judge he decides he doesn’t like, or whatever. I am generally against creeping powers in these undefined areas.

Edit—and, because these pardons are almost always in the last days of a lame duck presidency, they don’t face electoral consequences.
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I would say Biden is pardoning the wrong people, because the people are very clearly guilty of their crimes and the crimes are real, normal crimes that harm society.

Presidential pardons should be used for people who were wrongly accused of crimes based on overly political reasons or when jury decisions are very questionable. They should also be used to pardon political prisoners or crimes where only the state was harmed and not normal citizens, think whistle blowers.
 
Monahorns said:
I would say Biden is pardoning the wrong people, because the people are very clearly guilty of their crimes and the crimes are real, normal crimes that harm society.
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Agree, Monahorns. Prosecutors gathered evidence, presented it to a jury - and a jury found the individual guilty. The prosecutors argued for the death penalty, and the jury agreed. Biden's pardon effectively overrides the results of the law in 37 cases - not the correct use of the pardon power.
 
SN
Excellent point. I had to go back and review each.
The commutations of murderers judged by juries to be guilty is a slap in the face to the victims.
 
Sangre Naranjada said:
Be careful not to conflate a pardon with a commutation.
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Neither are acceptable as a blanket action in this instance. None of those 37 appear to have had an actual bar to execution or questions about the due process at any step of the way.

Whoever is running the country abused the process for illegitimate reasons.
 
There has to be some one or group making the destructive decisions in the name of Biden. I thought it was Obama, certainly he has no love for Americans or America.
 
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