On the bathroom issue

Tucker Carlson segment on this issue. Good one

How long until you can choose which race you are?
How is this any different than people choosing their gender? We are assigned race and gender at birth, if I can change one what is stopping me from changing the other? Can I be a black female Swede anytime I want?


 
I have empathy for both sides on this issue. IMHO, I think it was best just left without a law either way as it didn't seem to be a problem before it was made into one.

This is the type of in-fighting that occurs when a society gets too comfortable in their own perceived security and needs to create battles to some extent.

However, I definitely think the "if people can choose...what if...?" question is a very rational point to address.
 
Can the right come up with a sensible solution to this that doesn't require Chazz Bono to pee with the girls? I'm all against lewd or pervy bathroom behavior, but honestly the last time I saw any it was male on male when I was a UT student more than 30 years ago. In schools the legitimately transgendered, an tiny demographic, can choose once and make a big show of it to administrators, to get treated like the gender of their choosing. No matter what Mike Huckabee says, they can't just change one day because they want to show their nuts and watch girls shower.
 
Crockett said:
Can the right come up with a sensible solution to this that doesn't require Chazz Bono to pee with the girls? I'm all against lewd or pervy bathroom behavior, but honestly the last time I saw any it was male on male when I was a UT student more than 30 years ago. In schools the legitimately transgendered, an tiny demographic, can choose once and make a big show of it to administrators, to get treated like the gender of their choosing. No matter what Mike Huckabee says, they can't just change one day because they want to show their nuts and watch girls shower.
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Serious question. Have you read the bill?
 
Crockett said:
Can the right come up with a sensible solution to this that doesn't require Chazz Bono to pee with the girls? I'm all against lewd or pervy bathroom behavior, but honestly the last time I saw any it was male on male when I was a UT student more than 30 years ago. In schools the legitimately transgendered, an tiny demographic, can choose once and make a big show of it to administrators, to get treated like the gender of their choosing. No matter what Mike Huckabee says, they can't just change one day because they want to show their nuts and watch girls shower.
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How about this? If you have nuts, use the boys room. If not, use the girls.
 
Brad Austin said:
I have empathy for both sides on this issue. IMHO, I think it was best just left without a law either way as it didn't seem to be a problem before it was made into one.
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And that's the way I feel,,,,,but I'm sure someone will come back with, "it was a problem, you just were oblivious to it". Minority rules now.
 
nashhorn said:
And that's the way I feel,,,,,but I'm sure someone will come back with, "it was a problem, you just were oblivious to it". Minority rules now.
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Saw a study reference that said 1/300 identify as trans. Only a minority follow through with surgery. Probably only half or two-thirds want a trans bathroom law. So, we want to re-organize society based on 1/500 people?
 
mchammer said:
Saw a study reference that said 1/300 identify as trans. Only a minority follow through with surgery. Probably only half or two-thirds want a trans bathroom law. So, we want to re-organize society based on 1/500 people?
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This.

I'm all for laws protecting their jobs and preventing LBGTQ??? from being hazed, harassed or hurt but we can't continue to let these groups chip away at societal norms. I realize that it's frustrating and probably feels unfair to those at the fringes but if you are the one that feels the need to be so different then you are the one that will have to contend with the discomfort in doing so.
 
Crockett said:
I personally follow this dictate. Were I to lose my nuts to testicular cancer or a bad accident, I'd still want to pee on the guys.
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The issue is men going to pee with girls, not that guys want to pee with guys. But you keep peeing on guys and you might not be around long.
 
Joe Fan said:
Tucker Carlson segment on this issue. Good one

How long until you can choose which race you are?
How is this any different than people choosing their gender? We are assigned race and gender at birth, if I can change one what is stopping me from changing the other? Can I be a black female Swede anytime I want?


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Yes, you can. Check your companies EEO reporting. You can be anything you want. While working for a large retail chain we once did some analysis on our EEO data and found dozens switch from Caucasion to African American. It's not against the law to claim a different race. Should you choose not to declare, by law the company has to visually identify you for EEO reporting purposes.
 
How long until you can choose which race you are?
How is this any different than people choosing their gender? We are assigned race and gender at birth, if I can change one what is stopping me from changing the other? Can I be a black female Swede anytime I want?
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Dr. Carson made this exact point to Katy Couric a couple of weeks ago.

This is the type of in-fighting that occurs when a society gets too comfortable in their own perceived security and needs to create battles to some extent.
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This is why I always say the USSR going out of business was very bad for the US.
 
Seattle Husker said:
Yes, you can. Check your companies EEO reporting. You can be anything you want. While working for a large retail chain we once did some analysis on our EEO data and found dozens switch from Caucasion to African American. It's not against the law to claim a different race. Should you choose not to declare, by law the company has to visually identify you for EEO reporting purposes.
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LOL. Come on, man. There's a difference. Yes, I can claim to be of any race I want. However, I can't use the law to seek a remedy or accommodation based on my false claim. I can't go sue Company X and claim they discriminated against me for being black if I'm clearly white. If I falsely claim to be black on my college application to hustle affirmative action points and the school figures out my scam, they can expel me.

However, under a trans-agenda, I can "self-identify" as a woman, and I can expect the law to force others to accommodate me as a woman, even though I am clearly a man.
 
Yes, I can claim to be of any race I want. However, I can't use the law to seek a remedy or accommodation based on my false claim.
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However, under a trans-agenda, I can "self-identify" as a woman, and I can expect the law to force others to accommodate me as a woman, even though I am clearly a man.
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I believe you just made our point.
 
So, a girl in the process of transitioning to a boy (hormone therapy) won the the UIL championship for the girls 6a/110 weight class.

What's the remedy?

A) Force him to wrestle as a female even though she's receiving doctor prescribed testosterone (steroids) treatment?
B) Allow him to wrestle in the boys class? *That's his desire the rules forbid it.
C) Don't allow him to wrestle at all?
 
Seattle Husker said:
So, a girl in the process of transitioning to a boy (hormone therapy) won the the UIL championship for the girls 6a/110 weight class.
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I bet you could find a really long list of substances that the UIL bans - even ones that have a legitimate usage.

You're making the argument from the standpoint that it is reasonable and rational for a teenage child whose brain hasn't even finished developing yet to make a decision that will impact him for the rest of his life, and more than likely open a door for decades and decades of mental turmoil, higher rates of suicide and the potential that he might just realize he made a mistake at some point.

If he wants to wrestle competitively, he needs to abide by the rules, just like everyone. Every athlete that's worth anything lives a lifestyle of self-discipline and denial. I'm not sure why this is any different.
 
ProdigalHorn said:
I bet you could find a really long list of substances that the UIL bans - even ones that have a legitimate usage.

You're making the argument from the standpoint that it is reasonable and rational for a teenage child whose brain hasn't even finished developing yet to make a decision that will impact him for the rest of his life, and more than likely open a door for decades and decades of mental turmoil, higher rates of suicide and the potential that he might just realize he made a mistake at some point.

If he wants to wrestle competitively, he needs to abide by the rules, just like everyone. Every athlete that's worth anything lives a lifestyle of self-discipline and denial. I'm not sure why this is any different.
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I haven't made any argument yet but here goes.

My observations:
1. It's not fair to the other girls that they compete against someone on steroids.
2. I have no problem if girls are athletically gifted enough and choose to compete among boys in male sports.
3. This boy did abide by the rules that say "he's a girl" thus must wrestle the females. Since the hormonal therapy is doctor prescribed he's exempt from them inhibiting his ability to compete.
4. Suicide rates among homosexuals and transgendered have been astronomically high for awhile and you're worried that transitioning will bring about greater suicidal tendencies? Not be able be what you feel you need to be is far worse than try to pretend to be something you are not, IMHO.
5. I'm going to assume this guys decision to transition wasn't taken lightly thus accept that they and their parents have thought through the implications.
 
Seattle Husker said:
So, a girl in the process of transitioning to a boy (hormone therapy) won the the UIL championship for the girls 6a/110 weight class.

What's the remedy?

A) Force him to wrestle as a female even though she's receiving doctor prescribed testosterone (steroids) treatment?
B) Allow him to wrestle in the boys class? *That's his desire the rules forbid it.
C) Don't allow him to wrestle at all?
Click to expand...
The reality is that the testosterone is 1) a performance-enhancing drug as evidenced by the very reason the FTT's seek doctor's to prescribe it and 2) is ALSO an off-label use of the drug, which is something that should negate being permitted to compete while taking it, even if a doctor DOES kowtow to the delusional.

And, if testosterone is NOT a performance-enhancing drug that aids in muscle growth, then why prohibit adult female swimmers *cough* East Germany and China *cough* from using it, to say nothing of the adult male athletes?

The girl had an unfair medical advantage being paraded around under the auspices of medical treatment...
 
Since every one of your arguments is predicated on the statement I made, then you kinda made my point for me.

Again, everything you're saying here starts and finishes with the idea that we should be encouraging adolescents to take every impulse in their undeveloped minds as a sign that they're "in the wrong body". You make the assumption that this is a valid and reasonable conclusion. The point I think we're trying to make is that it's NOT reasonable. And the more you try to convince kids that it is, the more you encourage them to see those symptoms in themselves, the more they're going to assign that as the reason for all their teen angst and confusion. What teenager is there that's comfortable in his or her own skin? Well, now they "know."

So do they take it lightly? Probably not. The parent sure isn't going to discourage it because then they'll be accused of warping their kid, and they've been told that their child should be able to be fluid with gender, so why would they ever have an issue with it? So the whole question of "taking it lightly" doesn't make any sense. It's not about whether they're serious or not. It's about whether they're being told the truth about their situation, or whether the kid is truly qualified to say whether he "should be" one sex or the other.

We protect kids from their stupidity and rash decisions all the time. This is a decision that should be made by an adult who is mature physically and emotionally, and can then decide if that's really what he or she wants to do. Then it's an adult decision and he can live with it himself. But to foist this on kids and expect them (and yes, that's what society is doing) to evaluate themselves on that level and question their very genetics based on what might just be a phase or a feeling of general awkwardness is child abuse. Period.

I'll say it again:
If he wants to wrestle competitively, he needs to abide by the rules, just like everyone. Every athlete that's worth anything lives a lifestyle of self-discipline and denial. I'm not sure why this is any different.
 
ProdigalHorn said:
If he wants to wrestle competitively, he needs to abide by the rules, just like everyone. Every athlete that's worth anything lives a lifestyle of self-discipline and denial. I'm not sure why this is any different.
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According to this report he following the rules. So you are OK with it then?

ProdigalHorn said:
We protect kids from their stupidity and rash decisions all the time. This is a decision that should be made by an adult who is mature physically and emotionally, and can then decide if that's really what he or she wants to do. Then it's an adult decision and he can live with it himself. But to foist this on kids and expect them (and yes, that's what society is doing) to evaluate themselves on that level and question their very genetics based on what might just be a phase or a feeling of general awkwardness is child abuse. Period.
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You assume it was a "stupid and rash" decision. That's probably where we disagree most. In part, I can't imagine anyone starting a multi-year process like this on a lark and I believe there are multiple "checks" in the process before a permanent decision is made, like living as the alternate gender for an extended time.

I share your concern for the developmental concerns of the youth, particularly doing something like this through puberty. I'm not a doctor though thus am ill equipped to comment on the health consequences. Yes, youth can be awkward but I've also experienced young people that were confident in who they were and yes, that includes homosexual youth. Acknowledging that one is homosexual at a younger age is not is not necessarily a symptom of "confusion" but is more an acknowledgement of a fact.

There are some children you can tell very early on that they'll likely be "gay". Nobody is encouraging them but rather their mannerisms make it obvious. I have 2 cousins that followed this trend. Only after HS did they come out of the closet (it was rural Nebraska) but to me it was obvious.
 
Testostorone replacement therapy is prohibited in professional sports for a reason.

Even though low-T is an accepted medical condition and treatment is covered by insurance, pro sports do not allow those who qualify to use it.

Why? Because it absolutely 100% gives you a physical advantage.

Trust me, I've been on it for 3 years, it quickly adds 5-10 pounds muscle back to your body if you workout regularly and boosts energy and recovery very noticably.

When I first went in I told the Dr. I wasn't holding muscle mass as well the last year no matter how hard I pushed my workouts. He laughed and said "because with low testosterone you're just spinning your wheels."

They also give testosterone therapy for women at these places. Many female fitness competitors go that route now because it helps their muscle development and recovery.

The trans guy-girl on test 100% had an advantage and never should've been allowed to compete.
 
Joe Fan said:
Tucker Carlson segment on this issue. Good one

How long until you can choose which race you are?
How is this any different than people choosing their gender? We are assigned race and gender at birth, if I can change one what is stopping me from changing the other? Can I be a black female Swede anytime I want?


Click to expand...


The guy advocated his position as well as it can be advocated, but his position is indefensible by any rational standard. What Carlson is really asking for is objective criteria to determine one's gender identity, and the bottom line is there aren't any. It's "take my word for it." He can't admit that because he knows how idiotic that would sound, but that's the reason why he can't answer Carlson's hypotheticals and instead dismisses them as "unenlightened."
 
Seattle Husker said:
According to this report he following the rules. So you are OK with it then?
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The issue really isn't about whether the rules were followed. It's ridiculous to allow testosterone to be used for any reason if it's going to provide a clear physical advantage - that rule is in the context of boys competing against boys. I'm fairly sure the UIL isn't OK with boys taking steroids that would help them surpass their opponents in physical strength. That is EXACTLY what these treatments are intended to do, even though it's not necessarily about winning a context. He wants to be a man, which by definition means he wants to be stronger and bigger.

So whether he followed the rule doesn't mean the rule makes any sense. And none of this addresses the larger issues that I've already brought up.
 
Seattle Husker said:
You assume it was a "stupid and rash" decision. That's probably where we disagree most. In part, I can't imagine anyone starting a multi-year process like this on a lark and I believe there are multiple "checks" in the process before a permanent decision is made, like living as the alternate gender for an extended time.
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Actually, no, there ARE NOT 'multiple checks' in the process. For the better part of the past 20 years, basically with the advent of message boards and the internet, there has been a substantial increase in what they refer to as 'informed consent.' That means you go in, tell the doctor what you want to take and that you understand and accept the risks, after which the doc pulls out his little prescription pad or, in some cases with the 'gender clinics,' you just go into the next room to be jabbed in the *** by a nurse.

With the 'transing' of gay and lesbian kids to 'medicate the gay away,' the only added step in most instances is to get mommy and/or daddy to go along with the charade.

Nobody seems to notice that many of the kids, especially of the FTT variety, seem to come from religious homes. It is more acceptable to them to have a trans kid than a gay kid because they point and claim that the kid had a 'medical condition' even though there are no objective tests to confirm the condition beyond claiming it...

I share your concern for the developmental concerns of the youth, particularly doing something like this through puberty. I'm not a doctor though thus am ill equipped to comment on the health consequences. Yes, youth can be awkward but I've also experienced young people that were confident in who they were and yes, that includes homosexual youth. Acknowledging that one is homosexual at a younger age is not is not necessarily a symptom of "confusion" but is more an acknowledgement of a fact.

There are some children you can tell very early on that they'll likely be "gay". Nobody is encouraging them but rather their mannerisms make it obvious. I have 2 cousins that followed this trend. Only after HS did they come out of the closet (it was rural Nebraska) but to me it was obvious.
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There are very serious medical implications and I easily envision a wave of litigation within the decade of people suing over the permanent sterility and other very serious health issues that are known to exist with females taking testosterone over a prolonged period of time.

I expect the same for the MTT's who were trans'ed as kids and later desist once they become adults...

Oh, and those inflated suicide rates mentioned earlier...the 'study' that the media loves to cite from the trans-mouthpieces was a self-report study with questionable methodology precisely BECAUSE it was a self-select, self-report study. If anyone truly believes the 40%+ suicide rate, then they are as delusional as the trans contingent as that says two out of every five was trying to off themselves, and you have to presume that at least one out of four would likely be succeeding, and their 'day of remembrance' stuff just does not bear out those numbers. Those numbers, if one looks only at kids, also overlooks (deliberately) the standard mental health issues that contribute to teens contemplating taking their own lives.
 
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