On the bathroom issue
- Thread starter Horn6721
- Start date
Yeah: As I've said before, The Death of Common Sense was written 30 years ago. Now we're putting another couple of feet of legal concrete on the grave.
I threw that post together on my cell phone sitting in the car with a toddler while waiting for my wife to come out of a beer hall and didn't want to write a dissertation. However, the number of scenarios in which things could go wrong is almost limitless.
Well I don't know what to make of that.
It's a German thing!
If your spouse comes out of the beer hall and goes home with you and the toddler, you married the right person.
Did you read my full post? I'm against gay marriage. As goofy as it was, I voted for Prop. 2. What I'm suggesting is that some sort of legal status should have been made readily and easily available and frankly anybody. What if you've got two old maid sisters living together? Same concerns could come up.
Every day, people who know about Legal Zoom still pay lawyers thousands of dollars to draft wills, trust documents, prenuptual agreements, etc. They aren't stupid or gullible. There's a reason for that. Even if Legal Zoom is a viable option for some, it takes expertise to even know what kind of documents one needs. In the real world, this stuff is more complicated than you might think.
Besides, regardless of how cheap or easy things might be, most people are dying without wills, and their estates are being administered under the laws of intestate succession.
Divorce is a horrible thing, but it happens, and the law has to account for it, whether we're talking about gays or not.
The "equality" argument on gay marriage was and is ********. I agree with you there. That's not the point.
The "get the government" out of marriage position is totally unworkable, and the public would never tolerate it. The public has a legitimate interest in doing justice when it comes to dividing property and protecting children. (No, I'm not saying the system always does that.)
LOL. To be fair, she was at a retirement party for some coworkers. But I definitely married the right person. I'm living the dream, and it's pretty much because of her.
just so long as the toddler doesn't come out with a beer hauling a spouse...
yessir, I read the full post. I don't know why you think I didn't. I already alibied my apparent inability to break-up the post, but I addressed every point you made. Further more, I appreciate your understanding of the errancy in the initiative, even if yours and my opposition was insufficient to retain the legal meaning.
If there's nothing more sophisticated in the law regarding a marriage license, that same provision can be made for those who aren't married. Words mean things. Lawyers make a living on that. But that horse has left the barn and we're already feeling the societal effects.
Thanks Deez
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/20/u...n-doctors.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1
This attempt to make criminals of doctors is driven by the Bible. You can't convince me otherwise. I consider it an over-reach and a primary cause of the problems in the Republican Party as I stated earlier.
This attempt to make criminals of doctors is driven by the Bible. You can't convince me otherwise. I consider it an over-reach and a primary cause of the problems in the Republican Party as I stated earlier.
Not to jump into your battle here, but if you announce that you can't be convinced before he even comments on the bill at issue, then what's the point of discussing it with you? Seems like a waste of time to me.
Maybe so but I've seen enough to have an opinion. This bill is merely more evidence that there are religious extremists who are poisoning the water. He saw himself in the people I am criticizing and apparently disagrees with me. That's for him to work out for himself. I am quite convinced that these extremists are real and need to be fought because they are clearly using the Bible as the basis for law. This linked article was very timely as it gave me a perfect example of the type of people I am talking about. Maybe he is not one of them.
As someone once said, "I can't describe porn but I know it when I see it." It's the same for me when it comes to religious extremists.
By the way, I don't consider the bathroom issue to be a religious issue. I have a 12-year old daughter and my concerns for her are on a practical level. I have fears over the wording of the law. I will admit to that and I'm not sure of the answer.
38 legislators have sent a query to the Dept of Ed and the DOJ asking for clarification and details on how the BO admin will enforce the bathroom law.
questions asked;
"
1. Clarify specifically all actions that the ED and DOJ, jointly or separately, will take against or regarding a teacher, school administrator, education, school contractor, or person volunteering at a school who does not comply with this guidance;
2. Detail whether the ED and DOJ will recognize or accommodate rights of conscience and privacy in an individual's or institution's non-compliance with this guidance; ...
4. Detail all actions that a school, teacher, school contractor, and person volunteering must take to be in compliance with this guidance; ...
6. Delineate the statutory authority under which ED and DOJ issued this guidance;
7. Explain why schools must disregard the privacy, "discomfort," and emotional strain imposed on other students during use of bathroom, showering, and changing facilities and overnight accommodations as these schools comply with this guidance"
https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/0...-force-schools-to-obey-lgbt-bathroom-order/1/
These seem to be common sense questions but perhaps I am missing what surely is a bigoted hateful slant. Q #7 is particularly important IMO.
questions asked;
"
1. Clarify specifically all actions that the ED and DOJ, jointly or separately, will take against or regarding a teacher, school administrator, education, school contractor, or person volunteering at a school who does not comply with this guidance;
2. Detail whether the ED and DOJ will recognize or accommodate rights of conscience and privacy in an individual's or institution's non-compliance with this guidance; ...
4. Detail all actions that a school, teacher, school contractor, and person volunteering must take to be in compliance with this guidance; ...
6. Delineate the statutory authority under which ED and DOJ issued this guidance;
7. Explain why schools must disregard the privacy, "discomfort," and emotional strain imposed on other students during use of bathroom, showering, and changing facilities and overnight accommodations as these schools comply with this guidance"
https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/0...-force-schools-to-obey-lgbt-bathroom-order/1/
These seem to be common sense questions but perhaps I am missing what surely is a bigoted hateful slant. Q #7 is particularly important IMO.
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
It is, which is why I'm not. At this point all I can do is keep saying the same stuff over and over, and he's going to keep making points that are not in dispute and are not relevant to the point I made.
Wow, religious bigotry is very vogue these days. Regardless of whether or not you are religious or not, I bet the majority of your values are based in the 10 commandments. You might not believe, but I bet someone in your ancestry did.
I have no desire for my minor daughter to share a bathroom with any male regardless and it has nothing to do with religion.
I have no desire for my minor daughter to share a bathroom with any male regardless and it has nothing to do with religion.
There's nothing wrong with having opinions. We all have them on a myriad of issues, and I think that after following politics for many years, most of us develop presumptions about certain issues and why people take the positions they do on those issues. However, when you kneejerk say nobody can convince you of something that's ultimately a matter of opinion and largely subjective, I think it shows a closed mind, and respectfully, I think it's intellectually weak.
Another example of the type of person I was referring to when I said, "Religious Nuts.:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/u...-state-education-post.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/u...-state-education-post.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
Again, I know religious bigotry is vogue these days, but exactly what church or religion did it say she was in the article you posted?
Yes, she is an idiot. Let's see what else could have been used:
Feminine Nut
Education Nut
Old Nut
However, stick with your intolerance. It will serve you well.
Yes, she is an idiot. Let's see what else could have been used:
Feminine Nut
Education Nut
Old Nut
However, stick with your intolerance. It will serve you well.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
10 states, including Texas, are suing the Feds over the Obama Admin's new guidelines for Transgender bathroom rules.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/25/politics/texas-lawsuit-barack-obama-transgender/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/25/politics/texas-lawsuit-barack-obama-transgender/index.html
What took them so long?
Actually, it's more likely in for another 40 years of it, because the Supreme Court will join in the fight.
Assuming Trump finishes the campaign and is elected ... this is one facet of life I'm pretty sure won't be held inverted as has been turned by BHO.
I ran across this article earlier this morning. He's right, there are provisions in this edict which haven't been getting a lotta press from the broadcast TV media, nor even the vast right wing conspiracy types (tic)
I'd like an Obama supporter to explain to me how it's proper for the govt to dictate parents cut out of the process in these schools/events ... or any of the other points Mr. Johnson highlights from the Exec Order.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/...ngerous-and-underreported-part-of-obamas-tran
I ran across this article earlier this morning. He's right, there are provisions in this edict which haven't been getting a lotta press from the broadcast TV media, nor even the vast right wing conspiracy types (tic)
I'd like an Obama supporter to explain to me how it's proper for the govt to dictate parents cut out of the process in these schools/events ... or any of the other points Mr. Johnson highlights from the Exec Order.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/...ngerous-and-underreported-part-of-obamas-tran
ProdigalHorn
10,000+ Posts
Articles like this are why I have no patience for "moderates" who try to explain away the bathroom thing as a non-issue. Everything spelled out in that article is completely in line with the agenda that has been stated, proclaimed, blasted over the airwaves for months. It has never been about bathrooms - that's just the part the media and many conservatives who've been duped into outrage focus on.
There is absolutely no excuse for disputing anyone's claim about their gender under the current statements regarding what gender identification means. A boy can claim to identify as a woman, walk into a girls locker room, be visibly aroused and know that no one can say a thing, because he identifies as a woman but is still attracted to other women. And if that somehow becomes convenient, he can change it right back. Maybe he only identifies as a woman on the overnight field trip so he can bunk down with his girlfriend without parental consent. If you don't think that's gonna happen at some point, I don't know what to say anymore.
There is absolutely no excuse for disputing anyone's claim about their gender under the current statements regarding what gender identification means. A boy can claim to identify as a woman, walk into a girls locker room, be visibly aroused and know that no one can say a thing, because he identifies as a woman but is still attracted to other women. And if that somehow becomes convenient, he can change it right back. Maybe he only identifies as a woman on the overnight field trip so he can bunk down with his girlfriend without parental consent. If you don't think that's gonna happen at some point, I don't know what to say anymore.
Yep, what happens if he self-identifies as a trans-lesbian?
or, as we say in the lesbian circles...you mean a straight person? Trans-lesbian is yet another incredible stretching of words by trans that USED to have meaning.
SCOTUS Disagrees:
"It is true that religion has been closely identified with our history and government... . The fact that the Founding Fathers believed devotedly that there was a God and that the unalienable rights of man were rooted in Him is clearly evidenced in their writings, from the Mayflower Compact to the Constitution itself... . It can be truly said, therefore, that today, as in the beginning, our national life reflects a religious people who, in the words of Madison, are 'earnestly praying, as ... in duty bound, that the Supreme Lawgiver of the Universe ... guide them into every measure which may be worthy of his [blessing ... .]' " Id., at 212-213.2
The other face looks toward the principle that governmental intervention in religious matters can itself endanger religious freedom.
This case, like all Establishment Clause challenges, presents us with the difficulty of respecting both faces. Our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being, yet these institutions must not press religious observances upon their citizens. One face looks to the past in acknowledgment of our Nation's heritage, while the other looks to the present in demanding a separation between church and state. Reconciling these two faces requires that we neither abdicate our responsibility to maintain a division between church and state nor evince a hostility to religion by disabling the government from in some ways recognizing our religious heritage:
"When the state encourages religious instruction or cooperates with religious authorities by adjusting the schedule of public events to sectarian needs, it follows the best of our traditions. For it then respects the religious nature of our people and accommodates the public service to their spiritual needs. To hold that it may not would be to find in the Constitution a requirement that the government show a callous indifference to religious groups... . [W]e find no constitutional requirement which makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against efforts to widen the effective scope of religious influence." Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U. S. 306, 313-314 (1952).
See also Rosenberger v. Rector and Visitors of Univ. of Va., 515 U. S. 819, 845-846 (1995) (warning against the "risk [of] fostering a pervasive bias or hostility to religion, which could undermine the very neutrality the Establishment Clause requires").3
As we explained in Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U. S. 668 (1984): "There is an unbroken history of official acknowledgment by all three branches of government of the role of religion in American life from at least 1789." Id., at 674. For example, both Houses passed resolutions in 1789 asking President George Washington to issue a Thanksgiving Day Proclamation to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many and signal favors of Almighty God." 1 Annals of Cong. 90, 914. President Washington's proclamation directly attributed to the Supreme Being the foundations and successes of our young Nation:
"Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us." 1 J. Richardson, Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897, p. 64 (1899).
Recognition of the role of God in our Nation's heritage has also been reflected in our decisions. We have acknowledged, for example, that "religion has been closely identified with our history and government," School Dist. of Abington Township v. Schempp, 370 U. S. 421, 434 (1962).7 This recognition has led us to hold that the Establishment Clause permits a state legislature to open its daily sessions with a prayer by a chaplain paid by the State. Marsh v. Chambers, 366 U. S. 420, 431-440 (1961); see id., at 470-488 (separate opinion of Frankfurter, J.).
... Such acknowledgments of the role played by the Ten Commandments in our Nation's heritage are common throughout America. We need only look within our own Courtroom. Since 1935, Moses has stood, holding two tablets that reveal portions of the Ten Commandments written in Hebrew, among other lawgivers in the south frieze. Representations of the Ten Commandments adorn the metal gates lining the north and south sides of the Courtroom as well as the doors leading into the Courtroom. Moses also sits on the exterior east facade of the building holding the Ten Commandments tablets.
Similar acknowledgments can be seen throughout a visitor's tour of our Nation's Capital. For example, a large statue of Moses holding the Ten Commandments, alongside a statue of the Apostle Paul, has overlooked the rotunda of the Library of Congress' Jefferson Building since 1897. And the Jefferson Building's Great Reading Room contains a sculpture of a woman beside the Ten Commandments with a quote above her from the Old Testament (Micah 6:8). A medallion with two tablets depicting the Ten Commandments decorates the floor of the National Archives. Inside the Department of Justice, a statue entitled "The Spirit of Law" has two tablets representing the Ten Commandments lying at its feet. In front of the Ronald Reagan Building is another sculpture that includes a depiction of the Ten Commandments. So too a 24-foot-tall sculpture, depicting, among other things, the Ten Commandments and a cross, stands outside the federal courthouse that houses both the Court of Appeals and the District Court for the District of Columbia. Moses is also prominently featured in the Chamber of the United States House of Representatives.9
Our opinions, like our building, have recognized the role the Decalogue plays in America's heritage. See, e.g., McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U. S., at 442; id., at 462 (separate opinion of Frankfurter, J.).10 The Executive and Legislative Branches have also acknowledged the historical role of the Ten Commandments. See, e.g., Public Papers of the Presidents, Harry S. Truman, 1950, p. 157 (1965); S. Con. Res. 13, 105th Cong., 1st Sess. (1997); H. Con. Res. 31, 105th Cong., 1st Sess. (1997). These displays and recognitions of the Ten Commandments bespeak the rich American tradition of religious acknowledgments.
Of course, the Ten Commandments are religious--they were so viewed at their inception and so remain. The monument, therefore, has religious significance. According to Judeo-Christian belief, the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai. But Moses was a lawgiver as well as a religious leader. And the Ten Commandments have an undeniable historical meaning, as the foregoing examples demonstrate. Simply having religious content or promoting a message consistent with a religious doctrine does not run afoul of the Establishment Clause. See Lynch v. Donnelly, 397 U. S. 664, 676-678 (1970).
NJlonghorn
2,500+ Posts
I agree with large parts of what you say, but I don't understand why it makes you have no patience for moderates. Can you explain?
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