Netanyahu Schooled Obama on the Middle East ...
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borna_horn
1,000+ Posts
buckhorn, why do you refuse to acknowledge that half of Israel's Jews are of Middle Eastern heritage? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the fact that Jerusalem (as well as other towns) were majority Jewish before Zionism was founded? Why do you refuse to acknowledge that the Jews from all over the world trace their ancestry, language, culture and religion back to this spot in the Middle East?
Because it fits your story. You want everyone to believe the Israelis are white, European colonists in the same vein as the American settlers. That is a false narrative used to perpetuate hatred and misunderstanding. Israel has a right to exist. The sooner we all see this, the better off everyone will be. Perpetuating false narratives only guarantees more war and bloodshed, so why do it?
Because it fits your story. You want everyone to believe the Israelis are white, European colonists in the same vein as the American settlers. That is a false narrative used to perpetuate hatred and misunderstanding. Israel has a right to exist. The sooner we all see this, the better off everyone will be. Perpetuating false narratives only guarantees more war and bloodshed, so why do it?
borna_horn
1,000+ Posts
Roma, you stated that the violence began with the creation of Israel. Is that a mistruth or isn't it? Look up the Baghdad pogrom of 1941. Look up the Hebron massacre of 1930. These were violent attacks on INDIGENOUS Jewish inhabitants.
Educate yourself.
It is like saying if a woman didn't exist, she couldn't have been raped. Both you and buckhorn have propagated this absurd line of reasoning.
The United Nations offered a peaceful settlement. The Jews accepted it despite strong disagreements. The Arabs chose war. THEY CHOSE IT. STOP BLAMING THE VICTIM.
Educate yourself.
It is like saying if a woman didn't exist, she couldn't have been raped. Both you and buckhorn have propagated this absurd line of reasoning.
The United Nations offered a peaceful settlement. The Jews accepted it despite strong disagreements. The Arabs chose war. THEY CHOSE IT. STOP BLAMING THE VICTIM.
borna_horn
1,000+ Posts
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
borna_horn
1,000+ Posts
borna_horn
1,000+ Posts
I do not know as much as I should about the Arab hatred of Jews but I am trying to learn
This article from Townhall lists 5 truths.
this is the first. the rest are at link
1."1. There is no such thing as a historic “Palestinian people” living in the Middle East. To be sure, there have been Arabs living in the land of Palestine for centuries. (The land of Israel was derisively renamed “Palestine” by the Romans in the second century A.D.). And it is true that some of these families have lived in Palestine without interruption for many generations. But at no time before 1967 did these Arabs identify themselves as “Palestinians,” nor did they seek to achieve any kind of statehood there. As expressed by former terrorist Walid Shoebat, “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
Before 1967, there was no such thing as Arab, Palestinian nationalism and no attempt to develop the territory as a homeland for the Arabs who lived there, and in 1936, when the Palestine Orchestra was formed, it was a Jewish orchestra. In fact, the original name of the Jerusalem Post, the flagship Jewish newspaper, was the Palestine Post."
The Link
Are all thesse "Truths" true? Can anyone debunk any of them with verifiable facts?
This quote from a known terrorist made me laugh
"As expressed by former terrorist Walid Shoebat, “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
It is also telling, to an outsider, neither jewish or Arab, that Israel took in its jewish refugees but Arab countries would not take in Arab refugees?
Why not?
This article from Townhall lists 5 truths.
this is the first. the rest are at link
1."1. There is no such thing as a historic “Palestinian people” living in the Middle East. To be sure, there have been Arabs living in the land of Palestine for centuries. (The land of Israel was derisively renamed “Palestine” by the Romans in the second century A.D.). And it is true that some of these families have lived in Palestine without interruption for many generations. But at no time before 1967 did these Arabs identify themselves as “Palestinians,” nor did they seek to achieve any kind of statehood there. As expressed by former terrorist Walid Shoebat, “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
Before 1967, there was no such thing as Arab, Palestinian nationalism and no attempt to develop the territory as a homeland for the Arabs who lived there, and in 1936, when the Palestine Orchestra was formed, it was a Jewish orchestra. In fact, the original name of the Jerusalem Post, the flagship Jewish newspaper, was the Palestine Post."
The Link
Are all thesse "Truths" true? Can anyone debunk any of them with verifiable facts?
This quote from a known terrorist made me laugh
"As expressed by former terrorist Walid Shoebat, “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
It is also telling, to an outsider, neither jewish or Arab, that Israel took in its jewish refugees but Arab countries would not take in Arab refugees?
Why not?
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
Now who is playing the victim? You are constantly saying that people misunderstand you. Either that is not true or you are not clear in your writing. State a position and quit dancing around your feelings.
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
Am I always stating that? I don't think so. Maybe my writing is poor, but it's the best I can do. Sorry if it doesn't meet your standards.
"Died on a beach." Yes, I guess that does validate any argument made by any descendant in any discussion for the rest of history. You nailed me on that one. Whoo boy!
"Died on a beach." Yes, I guess that does validate any argument made by any descendant in any discussion for the rest of history. You nailed me on that one. Whoo boy!
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
He did not die on the beach. He was killed at a hotel near the beach by extremists who hate jews.
The death of anyone at the hands of antagonizers is always extremely unfortunate, but that does not have anything to do with the political history. If my cousin is murdered, it does not transcend anything more than the fact that an individual killed him or her for whatever personal motives they may have had.
The Israeli/Palestinian dispute is much much greater than Borna's cousins or aunts and uncles. The killing of innocent civilians is always wrong, but those that do it should be condemned for their actions and not made to represent the true large scale issues from which their heinous actions are born.
There will always be people that resort to extremism and violence when they feel like they have no other options. That does not diminish the reasons why they are pushed to those ends. It just shows their failings and their lack of will power to fight the right way and not sucumb to the easiest path: killing civilians.
The Israeli/Palestinian dispute is much much greater than Borna's cousins or aunts and uncles. The killing of innocent civilians is always wrong, but those that do it should be condemned for their actions and not made to represent the true large scale issues from which their heinous actions are born.
There will always be people that resort to extremism and violence when they feel like they have no other options. That does not diminish the reasons why they are pushed to those ends. It just shows their failings and their lack of will power to fight the right way and not sucumb to the easiest path: killing civilians.
There is no question that Israel attacked first. I don't think there is much question that Israel's neighbors were massing to attack Israel, prompting Israel's pre-emptive strikes. I don't know about the writer's claim about Israel provoking the Arabs prior to their build-up.
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
2003, you are tilting at windmills. Re-read borna's comments so that you can understand the context with which borna wrote about his cousin.
Horn, I do not know Juan Cole and I have always thought that the Arab countries did indeed attack Israel first, but my interest in that article is everything else that Cole states concerning the legalities of the occupation and Israel's refusal to accept the 1967 borders for multiple reasons.
My question is, can someone say that what Cole is saying about the Geneva Conventions or UN mandates or the Hague Agreement is incorrect? Are his assertions on those matters "opinion" or are they actually "fact"?
There is a great deal more to his article than his assertion that Israel attacked first. That almost doesnt matter when you consider his other assertions after the fact. That is what I am most interested in.
Besides, the UN mandate creating Israel was harshly criticized by some politicians as being a powder keg and it took a great deal of lobbying to get enough votes to pass it. It wasnt cut and dry unanimous. There were many people who foresaw the problems we have been facing for the last 60 years and the moral issues that would surround creating a Jewish state on lands where there was a overwhelming Jewish minority.
My question is, can someone say that what Cole is saying about the Geneva Conventions or UN mandates or the Hague Agreement is incorrect? Are his assertions on those matters "opinion" or are they actually "fact"?
There is a great deal more to his article than his assertion that Israel attacked first. That almost doesnt matter when you consider his other assertions after the fact. That is what I am most interested in.
Besides, the UN mandate creating Israel was harshly criticized by some politicians as being a powder keg and it took a great deal of lobbying to get enough votes to pass it. It wasnt cut and dry unanimous. There were many people who foresaw the problems we have been facing for the last 60 years and the moral issues that would surround creating a Jewish state on lands where there was a overwhelming Jewish minority.
borna_horn
1,000+ Posts
Nasser was amassing troops along the Egyptian border. Israel struck pre-emptively. Israel told Jordan they did not want war. Jordan attacked first anyway. Considering Israel gave Egypt it's land back in return for peace, the residue of what is left is from a war started by the Arab side with the goal of eliminating Israel.
Uninformed,
What is the relevence of Borna's comments' on his family's hardships, as you see them, to this thread?
What is the relevence of Borna's comments' on his family's hardships, as you see them, to this thread?
2003
I think if you did some research on Juan Cole as i did after I read your link you'd see he is a pretty biased writer
As I said I am just starting to learn about the nuances but one thing seems pretty clear to sane people :A country of 3.8 million, Israel, would be insane to start a war with Egyp Syria and Jordan( combined) 42.5 million
yet this writer who you think sees the conflict through unbiased eyes asserts that tiny israel '"clearly started the war"
After he wrote that everything else he writes becomes suspect IMO
I don't think Israel is blameless but to think that country at 1967 was insane enough to risk getting annnilated taking on countries with nearly 40 million more people requires suspension of disbelief.
I also think the USA made it clear at the time it would not help Israel militarily.
I think if you did some research on Juan Cole as i did after I read your link you'd see he is a pretty biased writer
As I said I am just starting to learn about the nuances but one thing seems pretty clear to sane people :A country of 3.8 million, Israel, would be insane to start a war with Egyp Syria and Jordan( combined) 42.5 million
yet this writer who you think sees the conflict through unbiased eyes asserts that tiny israel '"clearly started the war"
After he wrote that everything else he writes becomes suspect IMO
I don't think Israel is blameless but to think that country at 1967 was insane enough to risk getting annnilated taking on countries with nearly 40 million more people requires suspension of disbelief.
I also think the USA made it clear at the time it would not help Israel militarily.
Uninformed
5,000+ Posts
Horn,
Whether or not Israel attacked first or was attacked first, the remainder of the article discusses statements that must either be true or false. Those are the crux of the matter as they apply to the legalities and perceptions of the conflict as it has evolved over the decades.
Concerning whether or not Cole is "biased", every person who does any research into a topic will at some point choose to favor one position over another. If Cole has chosen to favor the Palestinian side through his research then ok? Id like for someone to address the multitude of other points he makes in his article.
We are all "biased" in some way or another on every issue that is known to man, so I don't that is a really good criticism of the man.
And how much research can one do over an author in the span of a few hours that can be deemed truly comprehensive and filtered through? It is so easy for us to get on Wikipedia or some other website that has also chosen a "biased" opinion or angle whether it is to defame or to build up certain people or groups.
I would prefer to stick to what he is stating in that article and determine if it is valid or not. There is much more than who started the war in his article, and the rest of it is very relevent to the current issue.
Whether or not Israel attacked first or was attacked first, the remainder of the article discusses statements that must either be true or false. Those are the crux of the matter as they apply to the legalities and perceptions of the conflict as it has evolved over the decades.
Concerning whether or not Cole is "biased", every person who does any research into a topic will at some point choose to favor one position over another. If Cole has chosen to favor the Palestinian side through his research then ok? Id like for someone to address the multitude of other points he makes in his article.
We are all "biased" in some way or another on every issue that is known to man, so I don't that is a really good criticism of the man.
And how much research can one do over an author in the span of a few hours that can be deemed truly comprehensive and filtered through? It is so easy for us to get on Wikipedia or some other website that has also chosen a "biased" opinion or angle whether it is to defame or to build up certain people or groups.
I would prefer to stick to what he is stating in that article and determine if it is valid or not. There is much more than who started the war in his article, and the rest of it is very relevent to the current issue.
zork
2,500+ Posts
When has their been peace from the Palestinian side in the last 20 years? Isreal has and will always be at war. To deny that is to deny reality. Giving the Gaza lands back was the true proof that there can never be peace.
As such Israel should never give another inch and should continue to do what it takes to ally with whomever willl back their interests. Obama is an idiot for not realizing what the Israelis face day to day.
The biggest abortion in the whole reality for the Palestinians is the abuse they take from their Arab brethren by them not relocating all of the Palestinians to their lands given their mistreatment as pawns for the Arab world keeping many generations in refugee camps, squalor.
Israel will be fine unless Iran nukes them.
As such Israel should never give another inch and should continue to do what it takes to ally with whomever willl back their interests. Obama is an idiot for not realizing what the Israelis face day to day.
The biggest abortion in the whole reality for the Palestinians is the abuse they take from their Arab brethren by them not relocating all of the Palestinians to their lands given their mistreatment as pawns for the Arab world keeping many generations in refugee camps, squalor.
Israel will be fine unless Iran nukes them.
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