Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies

[Monahorns]

1, it's for people that scream the IDF is taking prisoners that are unarmed or not part of hamas. Photo is proof they were armed
2, they're walked to a spot to drop their weapons. Anyone not in compliance is shot.

1. Complete BS. Those were staged photos. Four rifles and NO ammunition at all. The "terrorists" were shown hanging out casually with the IDF soldiers. That isn't how you treat terrorists. Most likely planted rifles. They have already been caught planting weapons in other reports.

2. Just look at all the photos and think critically. The soldiers had their guns hanging. They weren't prepared shoot any not in compliance. And I highly doubt real terrorists would be allowed to carry weapons out of a building. You separate terrorists from all their weapons because they are super evil violent guys always looking to kill a Jew. Those pictures shows a gang of bros chillin'.

 

[Monahorns]

Hand over your home to an Indian. Problem solved

Good one dude! Great comment!

 

[Monahorns]

Democratic Party Platform 2020:

"Democrats believe a strong, secure, and democratic Israel is vital to the interests of the United States. Our commitment to Israel’s security, its qualitative military edge, its right to defend itself, and the 2016 Memorandum of Understanding is ironclad.

Democrats recognize the worth of every Israeli and every Palestinian. That’s why we will work to help bring to an end a conflict that has brought so much pain to so many. We support a negotiated two-state solution that ensures Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state with recognized borders and upholds the right of Palestinians to live in freedom and security in a viable state of their own.

Democrats oppose any unilateral steps by either side—including annexation—that undermine prospects for two states. Democrats will continue to stand against incitement and terror. We oppose settlement expansion. We believe that while Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations, it should remain the capital of Israel, an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths. Democrats will restore U.S.-Palestinian diplomatic ties and critical assistance to the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza, consistent with U.S. law. We oppose any effort to unfairly single out and delegitimize Israel, including at the United Nations or through the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement, while protecting the Constitutional right of our citizens to free speech."

Democrats lie though. They are actively thwarting a two state solution right now. Words are worthless. Only actions mattter.

 

[Monahorns]

Republican Party Platform 2020:

On U.S. support for Israel and its security

Like the United States of America, the modern state of Israel is a country born from the aspiration for freedom and stands out among the nations as a beacon of democracy and humanity. Beyond our mutual strategic interests, Israel is likewise an exceptional country that shares our most essential values. It is the only country in the Middle East where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are found. Therefore, support for Israel is an expression of Americanism, and it is the responsibility of our government to advance policies that reflect Americans’ strong desire for a relationship with no daylight between America and Israel.

We reaffirm America’s commitment to Israel’s security and will ensure that Israel maintains a qualitative military edge over any and all adversaries. We support Israel’s right and obligation to defend itself against terror attacks upon its people and against alternative forms of warfare being waged upon it legally, economically, culturally, and otherwise.

On the two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

The United States seeks to assist in the establishment of comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, to be negotiated among those living in the region. We oppose any measures intended to impose an agreement or to dictate borders or other terms, and we call for the immediate termination of all U.S. funding of any entity that attempts to do so. Our party is proud to stand with Israel now and always.

On Jerusalem as the capital of Israel

We recognize Jerusalem as the eternal and indivisible capital of the Jewish state and call for the American embassy to be moved there in fulfillment of U.S. law.

On BDS and the delegitimization of Israel

We reject the false notion that Israel is an occupier and specifically recognize that the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement (BDS) is anti-Semitic in nature and seeks to destroy Israel. Therefore, we call for effective legislation to thwart actions that are intended to limit commercial relations with Israel, or persons or entities doing business in Israel or in Israeli-controlled territories, in a discriminatory manner.

Republicans are closet leftists who have no real power in the government. Whatever they write about will not happen. Anything they write which a conservative voter likes is a complete fabrication. Keep voting for the New Jersey Generals and you will keep losing. Just like the Democrats they are wrong on morality, wrong on economics, wrong on liberty, and wrong on the nature of the state.

 

[Chop]

Democrats lie though. They are actively thwarting a two state solution right now. Words are worthless. Only actions mattter.

2024 will be very interesting to watch the Dems. There may be a brawl at the Democratic convention on this very issue. Some of their Middle Eastern immigrants and far leftists really, really HATE Jews, while many of the old guard support them, or are themselves Jewish. They don't get along. Not at all. And it may come to a head at their convention on a platform fight.

 

[Chop]

Keep voting for the New Jersey Generals and you will keep losing

 

[Chop]

I get the Isolationist urge. Such thinking has been here since our founding. Let's just be the USA and the rest of the World can go to pot, that's on them.

In today's interconnected world, and with technology and weaponry where it's at today, I'm not sure that's the wisest approach though...

 

[Monahorns]

2024 will be very interesting to watch the Dems. There may be a brawl at the Democratic convention on this very issue. Some of their Middle Eastern immigrants and far leftists really, really HATE Jews, while many of the old guard support them, or are themselves Jewish. They don't get along. Not at all. And it may come to a head at their convention on a platform fight.

That is true. The Democratic Party has long been a coalition of different interest groups. But they have been serious about wielding power. I think the Jewish interest will win out. If so there will be not be two states because that isn't what Israel wants. It would be great if that happened because many of the most crazy leftists would either leave the party or go along with a more traditional left direction.

 

[Monahorns]

Ha! The Washington Generals. the NJ Generals fell about at the end too because of Trump's foolishness.

 

[Chop]

Now replace "Haiti" with "Gaza" in the video below:

 

[Monahorns]

I get the Isolationist urge. Such thinking has been here since our founding. Let's just be the USA and the rest of the World can go to pot, that's on them.

In today's interconnected world, and with technology and weaponry where it's at today, I'm not sure that's the wisest approach though...

Yes. Sending weapons and money around the world has benefitted Americans so so much. Need more of it for the sake of making Americans safer and wealthier.

But hey. Aren't sanctions isolationist? Doesn't war produce more isolation in the world. I am for true interaction with the whole world. There are 100 ways to be involved in the world without starting wars and extending wars all over the world. Let's be known for peace and prosperity not killing women and children.

 

[Creek]

Creek.
Serious sincere question.How do you know the written and unwritten combat/ battlefield policies?

Israel signed the Geneva convention and that means they are supposed to take prisoners.
Doesn’t look like it is being followed by either side. Not that it should.

 

[Horn6721]

Creek
If IDF is telling the truth it was an individual soldier who although under orders not to fire fired at the hostages. It is a very likely scenario.
If it had been the unit they all would have fired.
There have and will be soldiers who in combat disobey orders with bad results.

 

[mchammer]

 

[Mr. Deez]

Fuckin' idiots.

 

[Chop]

The Turks need to immediately return Constantinople to the Greeks.

 

[Chop]

This is getting pretty bad. Soon the real Nazis might start putting these rag tag mobs into some organization. What’s worse than a rag tag undisciplined mob? An organized disciplined army. It would be good to put a stop to this mess first.

 

[mchammer]

The Turks need to immediately return Constantinople to the Greeks.

Good point. Personally I would trade the following with the Arabs: Istanbul for Israel. But that is me. I recognize not everyone would agree to this.

 

[Chop]

Good point. Personally I would trade the following with the Arabs: Istanbul for Israel. But that is me. I recognize not everyone would agree to this.

Quick, but important, point of fact. The Turks are not Arab. I think they're Indo-European. But whatever they are, they came from Central Asia and are not Arabs.

The Turks had one badass army back then (especially the Turks' Janissaries--largely Ukrainian slaves I think), and the Byzantines were supposedly a bit soft and decadent. And their organization and administration was best described as .....................Byzantine.

 

[Chop]

Good point. Personally I would trade the following with the Arabs: Istanbul for Israel. But that is me. I recognize not everyone would agree to this.

And Israel is not ours to trade.

 

[mchammer]

And Israel is not ours to trade.

But some think otherwise. If so the answer is Byzantium for Israel.

 

[Chop]

Israel is one place I would NOT throw under the bus.

 

[Monahorns]

Creek
If IDF is telling the truth it was an individual soldier who although under orders not to fire fired at the hostages. It is a very likely scenario.
If it had been the unit they all would have fired.
There have and will be soldiers who in combat disobey orders with bad results.

It's happened multiple times though with a whole group doing it together. It isn't one rogue soldier. They've killed around 50 journalists so far in a two and half months.

 

[Monahorns]

Maher is right. Looking back victims need to do their best to find a new safe place and rebuild their lives. But it doesn't justify new acts of conquest.

 

[Monahorns]

Israel is one place I would NOT throw under the bus.

I would do nothing against Israel in anyway. I think it is best to keep from participating in what they are doing and caution them when they cross the line. But that's it. Speak truth and peace. But otherwise let's take care of our own. We have huge problems here that need attention.

 

[Garmel]

IDF chicks are hawt.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I agree that the situations are similar.

What I don't agree with is that Palestinians or Indians never owned the land. Land ownership happens when an individual mixes his labor with previously unused land (homesteading) to create things he needs to support his life or his family's life. This is the Lockean model. Based on that model some of the land Americans settled was stolen and some of the land Israel has settled is stolen. Both groups haven't had a state but they were a nation as a nation is simply a group of people with a common language, culture, and family ties.

If you someone forces you off land that you rightly own according to the Lockean model you have a right to defend yourself and your property. You also have the right to fight to win it back because the aggressor has gained the land illegitimately from an ethical perspective.

I also disagree that Indians (in the 19th century) and Palestinians have less historic ties to the land. I don't believe they have a right of return in every case for several reasons. But I don't see how European Jews moving in and kicking Palestinians off of land their family has homesteaded for generations is legitimate. It is theft on a grand scale. I don't support returning Gazans to their families land right now because it would be hard to determine who really owned what land. But it is a recorded fact that those people are descended from 750,000 Palestinians who were removed from their family's land and moved into the Gaza strip.

On an individual level, perhaps, but on a national level land is held by the nation that can and is willing to protect it. The world has been governed that way forever, especially outside the West. It's not nice, but it's the truth. Native Americans don't hold the land in the US because they lost it through conquest. The Jews hold Israel through conquest. They also lost it through conquest centuries and millennia ago on several occasions. It happens, and it's the rule throughout history - not the exception.

As an act of benevolence, should the conquering people make concessions to the conquered people to promote peace and reconciliation? Oftentimes, yes. I'm for letting Native Americans be largely independent on their reservations, helping them out from time to time, and having good relations with them. However, if Native Americans were installing violent leaders who wanted to retake the continental United States and were murdering US citizens to do it, that would be the end of my benevolence. I'd want the killers dead, and I'd want everyone who supports them dead or beaten into submission and then reeducated.

I also agree that Hamas attacking civilians is horrendous. It shouldn't be tolerated. Those involved in the crimes should be brought to justice. But you continue to ignore that Palestinian civilians are also being attacked by Israel. People can claim they are collateral damage or human shields but it doesn't change the fact that tens of thousands are being killed right now and Israel doesn't really know how much effect they are having on Hamas. Do Palestinians have any right to defend themselves? Obviously 10/7 had nothing to do with defense.

Rhetorically, you're not for tolerating it, but practically, you are.

I am fine with being allies with Israel in general. But they aren't the best partner. I see the US doing lots and lots of things to help Israel. I don't see anything that Israel is doing to help the US and most especially Americans. I agree that Hamas are savages but I don't think most of the Palestinians are. Most of them are trying to make a living and raise families like everybody else. I don't see Palestinians posing any threat to Americans in any way. My daughters have gone to high school with many Muslims. They are under no threat from them and are in fact friends.

Israel is a productive nation that trades with the US and the Western world. We benefit from them economically, politically, and militarily. It largely respects Western values and usually has our back in the UN and in other global contexts. I would be far more indifferent to them if they did not. If they were destroyed and the Palestinians took control of the area, it would basically turn into Libya or Somalia.

And American Muslims are not like Muslims in Middle East or even in Europe. American Muslims are largely of the aristocratic classes of the Islamic world who came to the US for economic opportunity. They got visas, flew to the US on a plane, went to college, and became professionals - all of which took money and connections. They go to mosque, but they largely "play ball" and respect Western values. The Muslims in the Middle East (and to a lesser but still significant extent, Europe) are uneducated and broke-*** poor. They're like American Muslims like an illiterate lettuce picker in Tijuana is like a Mexico City brain surgeon.

 

[Horn6721]

Mr D You may be right. But the faction of ugly American values hating muslims are enough to cause trouble.
And the muslims who appear to respect our values haven't spoken out against or done anything to curtail the ugly extremism.
Like in other countries Kinda suggests they silently agree with the extremists

 

[Run Pincher]

On an individual level, perhaps, but on a national level land is held by the nation that can and is willing to protect it. The world has been governed that way forever, especially outside the West. It's not nice, but it's the truth. Native Americans don't hold the land in the US because they lost it through conquest. The Jews hold Israel through conquest. They also lost it through conquest centuries and millennia ago on several occasions. It happens, and it's the rule throughout history - not the exception.

As an act of benevolence, should the conquering people make concessions to the conquered people to promote peace and reconciliation? Oftentimes, yes. I'm for letting Native Americans be largely independent on their reservations, helping them out from time to time, and having good relations with them. However, if Native Americans were installing violent leaders who wanted to retake the continental United States and were murdering US citizens to do it, that would be the end of my benevolence. I'd want the killers dead, and I'd want everyone who supports them dead or beaten into submission and then reeducated.



Rhetorically, you're not for tolerating it, but practically, you are.



Israel is a productive nation that trades with the US and the Western world. We benefit from them economically, politically, and militarily. It largely respects Western values and usually has our back in the UN and in other global contexts. I would be far more indifferent to them if they did not. If they were destroyed and the Palestinians took control of the area, it would basically turn into Libya or Somalia.

And American Muslims are not like Muslims in Middle East or even in Europe. American Muslims are largely of the aristocratic classes of the Islamic world who came to the US for economic opportunity. They got visas, flew to the US on a plane, went to college, and became professionals - all of which took money and connections. They go to mosque, but they largely "play ball" and respect Western values. The Muslims in the Middle East (and to a lesser but still significant extent, Europe) are uneducated and broke-*** poor. They're like American Muslims like an illiterate lettuce picker in Tijuana is like a Mexico City brain surgeon.

So how do you classify Taxi Drivers?

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

And the muslims who appear to respect our values haven't spoken out against or done anything to curtail the ugly extremism.

How do you know what Muslims have done on an individual level? On a family level? On a small group level? On a community level?