Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies
- Thread starter Chop
- Start date
this is a surprising and honest opinion by Chris Cuomo who watched 47 mins of the brutality of Hamas on Oct 7
"If an enemy wanted to make sure that Israel would come for them, the message would be to take children, women, innocents and more, tie them up and burn them alive. Just like the Holocaust. The ultimate fear of what the world can bring the Jews’ way when a decision is made that Jews are less than human and treated that way in words and deeds.
I now know that is exactly the message Hamas sent, on purpose, at scale. I was not aware of that before. They did it methodically. You hear it in the voices, the commands, the ease and excitement of finding and mutilating victims. Being told, “Let them play with it.”
[...]
The 47 minutes show a small fraction of the dead, but it makes it very clear that Hamas wanted war. This was not the irrepressible angst of the desperate who want freedom, who want better, nor certainly want anything approximating peace. They wanted the Jews to know that they want them to burn — again.
I now understand better what is fueling Israel. This is not tit-for-tat. They are fueled by the deepest fears of genocide because those fears are real.
vid worth watching
"If an enemy wanted to make sure that Israel would come for them, the message would be to take children, women, innocents and more, tie them up and burn them alive. Just like the Holocaust. The ultimate fear of what the world can bring the Jews’ way when a decision is made that Jews are less than human and treated that way in words and deeds.
I now know that is exactly the message Hamas sent, on purpose, at scale. I was not aware of that before. They did it methodically. You hear it in the voices, the commands, the ease and excitement of finding and mutilating victims. Being told, “Let them play with it.”
[...]
The 47 minutes show a small fraction of the dead, but it makes it very clear that Hamas wanted war. This was not the irrepressible angst of the desperate who want freedom, who want better, nor certainly want anything approximating peace. They wanted the Jews to know that they want them to burn — again.
I now understand better what is fueling Israel. This is not tit-for-tat. They are fueled by the deepest fears of genocide because those fears are real.
vid worth watching
Yep. I completely get why the Israelis feel that way. Many of their neighbors really are out to wipe them out entirely.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Israel had been making peace deals with the nations around them over the last several years like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Trump was at the forefront of that. I don't see any neighbors that are actively trying to wipe them out. Hamas is dangerous but they have no ability to wipe Israel out. 10/7 was as bad as they can do. They paying dearly for it and won't be able to do anything near for a long time.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
All that means is that people are giving them carte blanche because of the holocaust. Just say "holocaust" and you too can kill as many people as you want.
Let's not forget that Israel never responds proportionally. Casualties are usually 10:1 or 20:1, Palestine:Israel. Israel for decades has done this. This is dishonest.
I think that is the point.
I view the Palestinians a little (but not entirely) like I view Native Americans. They have some legitimate complaints. They never had a nation in the area, but some were expelled from land they lived on (even if they didn't own it). However, they frequently engage in violence against a people with greater historic ties to the land and not against their military but against civilians. That's just not defensible, and a pretty ferocious response to stop them from doing it again is justifiable.
As an American, I'm for helping Israel entirely for pragmatic reasons. They are a largely pro-Western nation under attack by a bunch of Islamic savages who would sever our heads if they had their way. Very easy call.
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Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
You just made the argument for Hamas doing everything they can to attack Israel too. Otherwise you are saying only one group has a right to defense.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I agree that the situations are similar.
What I don't agree with is that Palestinians or Indians never owned the land. Land ownership happens when an individual mixes his labor with previously unused land (homesteading) to create things he needs to support his life or his family's life. This is the Lockean model. Based on that model some of the land Americans settled was stolen and some of the land Israel has settled is stolen. Both groups haven't had a state but they were a nation as a nation is simply a group of people with a common language, culture, and family ties.
If you someone forces you off land that you rightly own according to the Lockean model you have a right to defend yourself and your property. You also have the right to fight to win it back because the aggressor has gained the land illegitimately from an ethical perspective.
I also disagree that Indians (in the 19th century) and Palestinians have less historic ties to the land. I don't believe they have a right of return in every case for several reasons. But I don't see how European Jews moving in and kicking Palestinians off of land their family has homesteaded for generations is legitimate. It is theft on a grand scale. I don't support returning Gazans to their families land right now because it would be hard to determine who really owned what land. But it is a recorded fact that those people are descended from 750,000 Palestinians who were removed from their family's land and moved into the Gaza strip.
I also agree that Hamas attacking civilians is horrendous. It shouldn't be tolerated. Those involved in the crimes should be brought to justice. But you continue to ignore that Palestinian civilians are also being attacked by Israel. People can claim they are collateral damage or human shields but it doesn't change the fact that tens of thousands are being killed right now and Israel doesn't really know how much effect they are having on Hamas. Do Palestinians have any right to defend themselves? Obviously 10/7 had nothing to do with defense.
I am fine with being allies with Israel in general. But they aren't the best partner. I see the US doing lots and lots of things to help Israel. I don't see anything that Israel is doing to help the US and most especially Americans. I agree that Hamas are savages but I don't think most of the Palestinians are. Most of them are trying to make a living and raise families like everybody else. I don't see Palestinians posing any threat to Americans in any way. My daughters have gone to high school with many Muslims. They are under no threat from them and are in fact friends.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Your right. That wasn't self defense obviously. That wasn't my point.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I am not sure Hamas actually defends Gaza which is a huge stain on them. But physical self defense of Gaza would look like defending the border wall, keeping Israeli military out. But in reality there isn't much they can do.
Real defense of Gazans would be pursuing peace, making honest reports that are truly transparent, and negotiating property rights for those in Gaza. Gazans have no real ability to fight against Israel. They need to learn to play nice and communicate that widely. Hamas isn't going to do that. It would be great if Hamas was removed. I support any means of removing Hamas from power except by killing civilians en masse.
Some thoughts on the Right of Conquest, and modifications thereof via the League of Nations/UN, are in the article below. This may relate more to the Russia vs. Ukraine situation than the situations in Israel.
https://www.vox.com/22959938/crime-war-kellogg-briand-ukraine-conquest
https://www.vox.com/22959938/crime-war-kellogg-briand-ukraine-conquest
It was Woodrow Wilson who pushed so hard to get the world away from the ancient and accepted concept of the Right of Conquest.
The Divine Right to ownership of certain land is another viewpoint.
Our Civilization, in these United States and really all of Western Civilization, has, as one of its main foundations, the Christian/Jewish Biblical Scripture. A bas relief of Moses and the 10 Commandments is featured prominently over the entrance of the United States Supreme Court for crying out loud. And that Scripture puts the land of Israel (plus quite a bit of nearby land) squarely, and unabashedly, in the ownership of the Jews. And very, very bad things tend to happen to those who try to uproot and destroy them.
G_dless atheists may scoff at this idea all they want, but it should not be ignored.
Our Civilization, in these United States and really all of Western Civilization, has, as one of its main foundations, the Christian/Jewish Biblical Scripture. A bas relief of Moses and the 10 Commandments is featured prominently over the entrance of the United States Supreme Court for crying out loud. And that Scripture puts the land of Israel (plus quite a bit of nearby land) squarely, and unabashedly, in the ownership of the Jews. And very, very bad things tend to happen to those who try to uproot and destroy them.
G_dless atheists may scoff at this idea all they want, but it should not be ignored.
Yes there are written policies and unwritten battlefield policies. If they would have killed Palestinians we would have not heard about it.
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
1, it's for people that scream the IDF is taking prisoners that are unarmed or not part of hamas. Photo is proof they were armed
2, they're walked to a spot to drop their weapons. Anyone not in compliance is shot.
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
Hand over your home to an Indian. Problem solved
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Wilson was a racist, Progressive, lying, cousin lover. Worst President ever. Most likely in hell right now unless he converted on his death bed.
Democratic Party Platform 2020:
"Democrats believe a strong, secure, and democratic Israel is vital to the interests of the United States. Our commitment to Israel’s security, its qualitative military edge, its right to defend itself, and the 2016 Memorandum of Understanding is ironclad.
Democrats recognize the worth of every Israeli and every Palestinian. That’s why we will work to help bring to an end a conflict that has brought so much pain to so many. We support a negotiated two-state solution that ensures Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state with recognized borders and upholds the right of Palestinians to live in freedom and security in a viable state of their own.
Democrats oppose any unilateral steps by either side—including annexation—that undermine prospects for two states. Democrats will continue to stand against incitement and terror. We oppose settlement expansion. We believe that while Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations, it should remain the capital of Israel, an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths. Democrats will restore U.S.-Palestinian diplomatic ties and critical assistance to the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza, consistent with U.S. law. We oppose any effort to unfairly single out and delegitimize Israel, including at the United Nations or through the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement, while protecting the Constitutional right of our citizens to free speech."
"Democrats believe a strong, secure, and democratic Israel is vital to the interests of the United States. Our commitment to Israel’s security, its qualitative military edge, its right to defend itself, and the 2016 Memorandum of Understanding is ironclad.
Democrats recognize the worth of every Israeli and every Palestinian. That’s why we will work to help bring to an end a conflict that has brought so much pain to so many. We support a negotiated two-state solution that ensures Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state with recognized borders and upholds the right of Palestinians to live in freedom and security in a viable state of their own.
Democrats oppose any unilateral steps by either side—including annexation—that undermine prospects for two states. Democrats will continue to stand against incitement and terror. We oppose settlement expansion. We believe that while Jerusalem is a matter for final status negotiations, it should remain the capital of Israel, an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths. Democrats will restore U.S.-Palestinian diplomatic ties and critical assistance to the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza, consistent with U.S. law. We oppose any effort to unfairly single out and delegitimize Israel, including at the United Nations or through the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement, while protecting the Constitutional right of our citizens to free speech."
Republican Party Platform 2020:
On U.S. support for Israel and its security
Like the United States of America, the modern state of Israel is a country born from the aspiration for freedom and stands out among the nations as a beacon of democracy and humanity. Beyond our mutual strategic interests, Israel is likewise an exceptional country that shares our most essential values. It is the only country in the Middle East where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are found. Therefore, support for Israel is an expression of Americanism, and it is the responsibility of our government to advance policies that reflect Americans’ strong desire for a relationship with no daylight between America and Israel.
We reaffirm America’s commitment to Israel’s security and will ensure that Israel maintains a qualitative military edge over any and all adversaries. We support Israel’s right and obligation to defend itself against terror attacks upon its people and against alternative forms of warfare being waged upon it legally, economically, culturally, and otherwise.
On the two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
The United States seeks to assist in the establishment of comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, to be negotiated among those living in the region. We oppose any measures intended to impose an agreement or to dictate borders or other terms, and we call for the immediate termination of all U.S. funding of any entity that attempts to do so. Our party is proud to stand with Israel now and always.
On Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
We recognize Jerusalem as the eternal and indivisible capital of the Jewish state and call for the American embassy to be moved there in fulfillment of U.S. law.
On BDS and the delegitimization of Israel
We reject the false notion that Israel is an occupier and specifically recognize that the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement (BDS) is anti-Semitic in nature and seeks to destroy Israel. Therefore, we call for effective legislation to thwart actions that are intended to limit commercial relations with Israel, or persons or entities doing business in Israel or in Israeli-controlled territories, in a discriminatory manner.
On U.S. support for Israel and its security
Like the United States of America, the modern state of Israel is a country born from the aspiration for freedom and stands out among the nations as a beacon of democracy and humanity. Beyond our mutual strategic interests, Israel is likewise an exceptional country that shares our most essential values. It is the only country in the Middle East where freedom of speech and freedom of religion are found. Therefore, support for Israel is an expression of Americanism, and it is the responsibility of our government to advance policies that reflect Americans’ strong desire for a relationship with no daylight between America and Israel.
We reaffirm America’s commitment to Israel’s security and will ensure that Israel maintains a qualitative military edge over any and all adversaries. We support Israel’s right and obligation to defend itself against terror attacks upon its people and against alternative forms of warfare being waged upon it legally, economically, culturally, and otherwise.
On the two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
The United States seeks to assist in the establishment of comprehensive and lasting peace in the Middle East, to be negotiated among those living in the region. We oppose any measures intended to impose an agreement or to dictate borders or other terms, and we call for the immediate termination of all U.S. funding of any entity that attempts to do so. Our party is proud to stand with Israel now and always.
On Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
We recognize Jerusalem as the eternal and indivisible capital of the Jewish state and call for the American embassy to be moved there in fulfillment of U.S. law.
On BDS and the delegitimization of Israel
We reject the false notion that Israel is an occupier and specifically recognize that the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions Movement (BDS) is anti-Semitic in nature and seeks to destroy Israel. Therefore, we call for effective legislation to thwart actions that are intended to limit commercial relations with Israel, or persons or entities doing business in Israel or in Israeli-controlled territories, in a discriminatory manner.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
God promised Israel the land within the Abrahamic covenant. But that doesn't give them a supernatural right to steal and kill in the 20th and 21st centuries to get it. God commanded them to remove the Canaanites thousands of years ago. But that command was not given to the atheist, communist Jews from Russia and Poland that started the state of Israel in 1948. They aren't allowed to violate natural rights to take the land by force. We know they will inherit the land when Jesus comes back. They can also purchase land from current owners or homestead truly unused land. This is a complete misunderstanding of the Abrahamic covenant and the commands given to Israel in the Bible.
Green Party Platform 2020
The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict
Our Green values oblige us to stand against oppression, against settler colonialism and against the International crime of apartheid.
The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict
Our Green values oblige us to stand against oppression, against settler colonialism and against the International crime of apartheid.
- We recognize that Jewish insecurity and fear of non-Jews is understandable in light of the history of horrific oppression and extermination of Jews in Europe. However, we oppose as both discriminatory and ultimately self-defeating the position that Jews would be fundamentally threatened by the implementation of full rights for Palestinians. We also reject the Zionist concept of an exclusive Jewish homeland at the expence of the indigenous Palestinian population.
- As U.S. Greens, we refuse to impose our views on the people of the region. Still, we would turn the U.S. government towards a new policy, one that recognizes the equality, the inherent humanity, and the equal civil and human rights of Jews, Muslims, Christians, and all who live in the region.
- We recognize that the prevailing Palestinian view is that the two-state solution is neither democratic nor viable in the face of international law, material conditions and "facts on the ground" that now exist in historic Palestine. We recognize that a growing number of Palestinians now supports a one-state solution which guarantees equal rights for all its citizens. Given these realities the U.S. Greens recognize and reaffirm the right of self-determination for both Palestinians and Israelis, and their right to live in a single undivided secular and democratic state where all residents have full and equal rights, and freedoms.
- We reaffirm the right and feasibility of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes in Israel. We acknowledge the significant challenges of equity and restitution this policy would encounter and call on the U.S. government to make resolution of these challenges a central goal of our diplomacy in the region.
- We reject the grossly unbalanced financial and military support of Israel by the U.S. while Israel occupies Palestinian lands, maintains and grows settler colonialism, expands an illegal apartheid system, and perpetuates violent military governance against non-Jews throughout the region. Therefore, we call on the U.S. President and Congress to suspend all military and foreign aid, including loans and grants, to Israel until Israel withdraws from the Occupied Territories, dismantles the separation wall in the Occupied West Bank including East Jerusalem, ends its siege of Gaza and dismantles settler colonies and systemic apartheid toward its non-Jewish citizens.
- We also reject U.S. political support for Israel and demand that the U.S. government end its veto of Security Council resolutions pertaining to Israel. We urge our government to join with the U.N. to secure Israel's complete withdrawal to, at least, the 1967 boundaries and comply fully with international law.
- We support a much stronger and supportive U.S. position with respect to all United Nations, Arab League and Palestinian-led initiatives, the Office the High Commission on Human rights (OHCHR) and UN Special Rapporteur advisories that seek a just end to Israeli settler colonialism and apartheid safeguarding human rights defenders and the human rights of all Palestinians.
- We call on the foreign and military affairs committees of the U.S. House and Senate to conduct full hearings on the status of human rights and war crimes by Israel as well as right of return for Palestinian refugees.
- Despite decades of continuous diplomatic attempts by the international community, all efforts to bring about Israel's compliance with international law or respect for basic Palestinian human rights have failed. Despite abundant condemnation of Israel's policies by the UN, International Court of Justice, all relevant international conventions, and human rights organizations, Israeli violations, crimes of apartheid and ethnic cleansing against Palestinians continue with impunity.
- We recall that ending institutionalized racism (apartheid) in South Africa demanded an unusual, cooperative action by the entire international community in the form of a boycott, divestment, and sanctions (BDS) campaign. BDS can become an effective nonviolent means for achieving justice and genuine peace between Palestinians and Israelis, and for the region, through concerted international pressure similar to that which was applied to apartheid South Africa.
- Palestinian resistance to ongoing dispossession has mainly been nonviolent, including its most basic form—remaining in their homes, on their land; and while Palestinian armed resistance is legitimate under international law when directed at non-civilian targets, we believe that only nonviolent resistance will maintain the humanity of Palestinian society, elicit the greatest solidarity from others, and maximize the chance for future reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians. However, we also recognize that our appeal to Palestinians to continue to resist nonviolently in the face of ongoing existential threats from Israel is hypocritical unless accompanied by substantial acts of international support.
- We recall that in 2005, Palestinian Civil Society appealed to the international community to support a BDS campaign against Israel, and that in response the Green Party of the US endorsed this BDS campaign in 2005. Therefore, we support the implementation of boycott and divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era, which includes pressuring our government to impose targeted embargoes and sanctions against Israel. We support maintaining these nonviolent punitive measures until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:
Ending its occupation and colonization of all Palestinian lands and dismantling the Wall in the West Bank
Recognizing the fundamental rights of Palestinian citizens of Israel and Palestinians to full equality; and
Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.
- In addition, we are committed to building solidarity among the U.S. population for the global BDS movement as well as with Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organizations which fight against Israeli Apartheid.
- We recognize the structures and systems put in place for a just and peaceful future are for the people to decide without the scale tipping towards the colonizers who hold drastically greater power.
- Should the United Nations and International Civil Society conduct Palestinian-led peace negotiations, we recognize the usefulness of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission whose inaugurating action could be mutual acknowledgement by Israelis and Palestinians that they have the same basic inherent rights, including the right to exist and flourish in the same, safe and secure place of a homeland.
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