General Presidential Campaign: Trump vs Hillary

Joe Fan said:
I have always had some conflict on this issue.

I once worked on an death penalty appeal. The case coincidentally involved the murder of a UT coed who taken while leaving Gregory Gym. We did get the execution date stayed. And he lived on death row for about another 20 years or so. His name was Tommy Ray Jackson if you want to look him up. (I think I still have his hand-written manuscript somewhere).
Going to the old Huntsville Unit was one of the strangest experiences ever. There is a tower at the front gate. The guard in the tower actually lowers a basket on a rope, you put your DL in it and he pulls it back up (like a treehouse). Then calls in to verify. Maybe they have a better system now? I hope.

Anyways-
(1) I am willing to let democracy handle this issue. I am OK with it and will be OK when the voters finally reject it (same type of position I had a gay marriage -- except the Court should have stayed out of that), and
(2) This area of the law has been so thoroughly litigated that even Hillary's hand-picked Justices wont have much room there.
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So what if it has been litigated? Democratic justices don't give a crap about stare decisis. They'll overturn the past cases and find the death penalty to be cruel and unusual punishment. That means they'll take it away from democracy, which is where it stands now.

I have conflict over how the death penalty is sometimes administered - the process or lack of process followed. I don't have conflict over whether it's used at all.
 
Joe Fan said:
I meant right side so far as the Rep primaries went
It was Trump's first issue out of the gate. First day stuff. It quickly set him apart from the field and got his campaign alot of attention.. And it gave him an early lead which was never seriously challenged.

All of the other candidates were stunned, and then slow to react. And, when they did react, it was mild and even weasily.

If Trump had not entered the race, they would have all been able to slide through pretending to be tough on immigration/border enforcement while, in reality, being closeted open-borders Republicans. All 100 of them! Isnt this the problem with out R-majority generally? Once they get to DC, they dont give a crap anymore what their voters want anymore.

If any of these guys (or gal) were as smart as they think they are, they would have quickly seen the writing on the wall and pivoted on this issue that is so key to R-voters. Doing so would have helped deny it to Trump. It was pretty stupid of them not to. And so Trump had it all to himself and sailed through.
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You mean they should have lied about their position like Trump did? What Trump did was call for the prompt, forcible deportation of all illegal immigrants, construction of a complete border wall, and a ban on Muslims entering the United States "until we figure out what the hell's going on." That's what got him the nomination. His opponents did a mix of things. Some opposed legalization but fell short of calling for turning ICE into a Gestapo and actively kicking people out (Cruz, Rubio, who had flip-flopped). Some were pragmatic and wanted to adopt some form of legalization while increasing border security (Jeb, Fiorina, Kasich). (And no, that isn't open borders.)

Do I blame Trump for lying on the issue? Yes, but I mostly blame the voters for being gullible enough to believe him. Mass deportations were never a serious option, and having a religious test for entry was always a stupid idea. Some of the candidates called these ideas out as snake oil, which they were (which is why Trump has backpedaled on them), and they were punished for it. Well, that's the voters' fault, not the candidates'.
 
mb227 said:
minor derail and nit to pick...there is no such practice at the Walls Unit. You go up the steps and in the glass doors where an officer behind glass checks the ID and makes a call.....
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That's "new." I promise the basket and rope used to happen
 
Joe Fan said:
That's "new." I promise the basket and rope used to happen
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Been going on that unit from time to time the same way since the mid-80's, so don't know what to say...Ellis does have a visitation building but it is only used on the weekends, with many other facilities being similar. Most units do run everything from #1 picket with regard to getting in the unit when you are not assigned TO the unit.
 
Mr. Deez said:
..... His opponents did a mix of things. .....
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They shuffled their feet
Gazed at their navels
Said 'uhm' and 'ahhhh' alot

What they did not do was tell the truth - "My campaign sugardaddy/daddies will not let me make any meaningful change to my previous position on this issue"
 
mb227 said:
Been going on that unit from time to time the same way since the mid-80's, so don't know what to say...
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This was the 80s. And it happened.
I only worked on one of these, but I did spend quite a bit of time with the appellant doing interview (largely meaningless but done anyway).
Which was done through a wall with a double mesh window for communication, in case you want to check that too.
 
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Mr. Deez said:
So what if it has been litigated? Democratic justices don't give a crap about stare decisis. They'll overturn the past cases and find the death penalty to be cruel and unusual punishment. That means they'll take it away from democracy, which is where it stands now.....
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No doubt they will a coordinated attack on this, as well as the other things I mention above.
Hey, maybe Roberts will learn from his past mistakes and grow a pair?
lol
 
Joe Fan said:
They shuffled their feet
Gazed at their navels
Said 'uhm' and 'ahhhh' alot

What they did not do was tell the truth - "My campaign sugardaddy/daddies will not let me make any meaningful change to my previous position on this issue"
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That's so ridiculous. Rubio flip-flopped. Other than that, they were pretty consistent and pretty clear about their positions. I'm not saying they were necessarily the right positions, but they didn't BS and were generally clear. Nevertheless, the rubes who bought Trump's snake oil are getting burned now for two reasons. First, he flip-flopped, so even if Trump won, they wouldn't get what they thought they were getting. Second, their guy is going to lose to someone who's more pro-illegal immigration than Jeb Bush. We're going to pay a big price for their poor judgment.
 
Joe Fan said:
No doubt they will a coordinated attack on this, as well as the other things I mention above.
Hey, maybe Roberts will learn from his past mistakes and grow a pair?
lol
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Roberts will vote the right way on most of this stuff. Even Kennedy probably will too, because there will be a liberal majority as early as December 1 of this year, and their justices will write very broad opinions that he won't go along with. It won't matter though, because they'll have the votes - no more reason to compromise with Kennedy.
 
Mr. Deez said:
.... Other than that, they were pretty consistent and pretty clear about their positions. ....
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ALL of them who attempted to address this issue made some type of adjustment to their positions
They wobbled, warbled and mumbled

They basically did what Hillary did. Minor adjustments to mollify whatever need mollfying in the moment due to opponents' percieved success, with zero real meaning
 
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Joe Fan said:
ALL of them who attempted to address this issue made some type of adjustment to their positions
They wobbled, warbled and mumbled

They basically did what Hillary did. Minor adjustments to mollify whatever need mollfying in the moment due to opponents' percieved success, with zero real meaning
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That's absurd. Just because they didn't narrow their position on the issue down to a bumper sticker or a Twitter post doesn't mean they all wobbled. Besides, ever since he got the nomination Trump has been backpedaling on the issue so that he doesn't enrage Hispanics too much and turn off literate white people.
 
Mr. Deez said:
......Besides, ever since he got the nomination Trump has been backpedaling on the issue so that he doesn't enrage Hispanics too much and turn off literate white people.
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I actually wrote some long posts on this concurrently with the actual events
I laid out how his positioning on immigration, as well as other issues, was right out of his book.
He campaigned in the primaries in the same fashion he negotiates big business deals
And he blew away the field
 
Insanity
The woman who told the Palm Beach paper Trump "nudged" her at a Ray Charles concert in Jan 2003 did not even bother to verify facts,neither did the media (shocked I am)
Ray Charles did not even have a concert scheduled there. He did have one in Seattle Jan 23 2003 but he canceled it.
Will all outlets that reported this also report it could not have happened like the woman claimed?
 
The Clinton campaigns coordination and takedown of Trump with since Friday's release of the Access Hollywood tapes has been impressive when viewed only from a politics perspective. The fact that they timed it perfectly to cloud out the wikileaks conversations was genius. As Trump has shown, media consumers and voters slurp up simplistic messages. Trump's misogyny is a lot easier to consume than the nuances within John Podesta's email.

In modern politics, only the Swiftboating of Kerry has rivaled this tactical rollout in effectiveness against a POTUS opponent.
 
Horn6721 said:
The woman who told the Palm Beach paper Trump "nudged" her at a Ray Charles concert in Jan 2003 did not even bother to verify facts,neither did the media (shocked I am)
Ray Charles did not even have a concert scheduled there. He did have one in Seattle Jan 23 2003 but he canceled it.
Will all outlets that reported this also report it could not have happened like the woman claimed?
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There's quite a few inconsistencies with the story of the woman that alleges he grouped her in first class too. She said he put up the arm rest to do it. Arm rests in 1st class don't move and never have. Also, there was no Braniff flight to and from the cities she claimed it happened on in that year.

That said, Wilt Chamberlain claimed a woman performed oral sex on him on an airplane. While that was going on, a second lady allegedly came over to get in on the action too. Mind you, this is as recollected from reading an ancient Playboy interview with Wilt (just read the articles, didn't look at pictures). I think Wilt was full of **** too.

Also, heard that a third woman quoted in NY Times article outright denies anything happened. That article is just a hatchet job, plain and simple.
 
Clean said:
There's quite a few inconsistencies with the story of the woman that alleges he grouped her in first class too. She said he put up the arm rest to do it. Arm rests in 1st class don't move and never have. Also, there was no Braniff flight to and from the cities she claimed it happened on in that year.

That said, Wilt Chamberlain claimed a woman performed oral sex on him on an airplane. While that was going on, a second lady allegedly came over to get in on the action too. Mind you, this is as recollected from reading an ancient Playboy interview with Wilt (just read the articles, didn't look at pictures). I think Wilt was full of **** too.

Also, heard that a third woman quoted in NY Times article outright denies anything happened. That article is just a hatchet job, plain and simple.
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Wouldn't surprise me if the airplane incident was consensual and then the women was upset that Trump didn't call later. Who knows? My view is as valid as anyone else's.
 
You know, I sat by James Michener on a flight a few decades ago when we were both traveling from Atlanta to Austin. I remember talking to the man, remember he had a New York Times under one arm and a Washington Post under the other. I remember being terribly impressed and enjoying the interaction and some tidbits of our conversation. but my memory of the airline, the date of the flight, the color of the seat cushions, whether the arm rests stayed up or down... all are foggy. But I swear I talked to the man.
 
mchammer said:
Wouldn't surprise me if the airplane incident was consensual and then the women was upset that Trump didn't call later. Who knows? My view is as valid as anyone else's.
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I predict this statement is going to look as dumb as the initial defenders of Bill Cosby during the original lawsuit then others came forward...and forward...and forward.

By my count, there is at least 6 women so far that have claimed he kissed/groped them. Let's assume they are not all accurate but the growing volume has to make you go "DAMN...there may be something to his original Access Hollywood statements". One has to wonder if the number will hit double digits soon. Is it really a good strategy to attack the story and character of them all?
 
Mr. Deez said:
You didn't buy the 20,000 figure either? I don't think Wilt expected anybody to do the math on that.
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If he started at 15 and ended at 55, when his autobiography was published, he'd have to sleep with 500 different women a year or 1.4 per day. That's a tall order even if you're 7'2" And promiscuous even by NBA standards.
 
Seattle Husker said:
I predict this statement is going to look as dumb as the initial defenders of Bill Cosby during the original lawsuit then others came forward...and forward...and forward.

By my count, there is at least 6 women so far that have claimed he kissed/groped them. Let's assume they are not all accurate but the growing volume has to make you go "DAMN...there may be something to his original Access Hollywood statements". One has to wonder if the number will hit double digits soon. Is it really a good strategy to attack the story and character of them all?
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Nailed it. Waiting for your apology. By the way, I agree that the sheer number suggests that some may be true, but some are clearly BS. Her story by the way never added up in my opinion. Who gropes for 15 min in first class as she claimed?

http://nypost.com/2016/10/14/trump-camp-puts-forward-witness-to-refute-sex-assault-claim/
 
Clean said:
If he started at 15 and ended at 55, when his autobiography was published, he'd have to sleep with 500 different women a year or 1.4 per day. That's a tall order even if you're 7'2" And promiscuous even by NBA standards.
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And I think you're being generous on both ends of his life. Until he got famous and had lots of cash, could he really get a different girl every day and then some? What 15 or 16 year old with no money can pull that off? And when he was up in his 50s was his junk working well enough to pull that off day in and day out? Seems like a tall order in the pre-viagra days.
 
Seattle Husker said:
The Clinton campaigns coordination and takedown of Trump with since Friday's release of the Access Hollywood tapes has been impressive when viewed only from a politics perspective
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You need to go find the pulse of the internet on this one.

Hate to tell you but the nasty allegations were so coordinated, lacking any way to substantiate, dated without mention by accusers until recently, and some now being refuted by present third parties...the whole thing is backfiring in a nasty way.

I do quite a bit of sampling of public response from all kinds of online sources after big stories break. Several have respondents from all sides like this site. The overwhelming response I'm seeing is the word "sickening" and others like it.

Not at the allegations, but the large majority are concluding this was an organized hit job and express disgust at the moral bankruptcy it takes to coordinate (right near the end of race) and fabricate multiple criminal allegations to win an election.

Trust me, I fully expected to see a blinded by media public response of condemnation of Trump. It was quite surprising to see the opposite and most concluding it was a filthy smear campaign by a horrible person with no character limits.

The latest Wikileaks seems to be having an impact of her being viewed as a nasty and corrupt enough person to organize such a grotesque hit job.

What should concern Libs most...Trump is finally dead serious and pissed. Before he was cocky and aware the claims of his macho behavior were mostly true.

Now that they've falsely accused him of sexual crimes he's turned from cocky to seriously pissed and focused. Wait until this third debate, scorched earth in a serious tone is much different than boarish cocky insults like debate #2.

I thought this election was in deep trouble for DT after the audio tape. This sexual predator hit job by the media and HRC are rapidly swinging it back in play.
 
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