General Presidential Campaign: Trump vs Hillary
- Thread starter mchammer
- Start date
SH
Is it that you think Russia China etc are actively trying to hack and and all servers and agencies in USA? Of course they are
And we are trying it as well
Or are you saying that Russia provided wiki with Podesta etc emails for the express purpose of making sure Hillary did not get elected?
Read that link of yours again and direct us to the part where suggests that kind of activity.
Is it that you think Russia China etc are actively trying to hack and and all servers and agencies in USA? Of course they are
And we are trying it as well
Or are you saying that Russia provided wiki with Podesta etc emails for the express purpose of making sure Hillary did not get elected?
Read that link of yours again and direct us to the part where suggests that kind of activity.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
OK. So unlike Trump you recognize that Russia hacked the DNC/JP? This is an important first step and something JoeFan has yet to acknowledge.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
This was a fundraising ploy for the Green Party from the beginning. The Green Party admitted as much when they openly stated the money raised would be used towards recounts and funding future Green Party candidates.
No SH I did not say Russia had actively hacked DNC etc I asked if you thought Russia etc were trying just as we are trying to get at theirs. I do admit as I am sure JF does that Russia etc are and will continue to try to hack.
What I am trying to understand is why Russia would prefer Trump over Hillary, someone they had no trouble handling.
Would we yield primacy in Eastern Europe to Vladimir Putin? Would we give up our plans for missile defense? Would we make deep unilateral cuts in our nuclear arsenal in exchange for flimsy concessions ? Would we tolerate a Russian land invasion of a friendly, pro-Western country? Would we cede the Middle East to Russian hegemony?
Because Hillary Clinton and Obama already did that.
When BO tried to influence Netanyahu's defeat in 2015 I do not remember media being all outraged.
What I am trying to understand is why Russia would prefer Trump over Hillary, someone they had no trouble handling.
Would we yield primacy in Eastern Europe to Vladimir Putin? Would we give up our plans for missile defense? Would we make deep unilateral cuts in our nuclear arsenal in exchange for flimsy concessions ? Would we tolerate a Russian land invasion of a friendly, pro-Western country? Would we cede the Middle East to Russian hegemony?
Because Hillary Clinton and Obama already did that.
When BO tried to influence Netanyahu's defeat in 2015 I do not remember media being all outraged.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
So, then you ascribe to Trump's stance that there is no evidence despite what the intelligence agencies said. Do you think the agencies are lying? That's the only other recourse.
Seriously. You want to go down that path? HRC has been a "hawk" during her stint as SOS and publicly espoused more aggressive tactics in Syria and Ukraine. Trump on the other hand has discounted every anti-Russia stance since he started campaigning even to go so far as to say there was no "proof" Putin was involved in some high profile media personality murders or that Russia was actively sowing discontent in Ukraine. If you don't think that Russia would prefer Trump to HRC then I've previously given you too much credit.
We did all that while combating Russia. Musburger posts all the time about tactics the US is using that are against Russian interests. Imagine if we didn't seed the Ukrainian government change. Remember when Ukraine wasn't a Pro-Western country? Yeah, I do and remember the leak that directly tied members of the Obama admin that change in power. Maybe we will no longer carry out joint defense exercises in Eastern Europe? What about eliminating economic sanctions on Russia? Do we need those either? Yes, there are plenty of reasons why Putin would prefer Trump to HRC. With that said, I'm still not saying that Trump won only because of Russia interference.
You are equivocating hacking the political apparatus of a foreign power with making political statements? Seriously??? Need I remind you of the sequence of events when Netanyahu traveled to D.C. to go in front of Congress to speak out against the Iran deal. It wasn't the White House that invited him.
Clinton campaign rented a hotel ball room to watch the election results if recall correctly
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Comey's letter definitely had an impact but Reid is simply whining at this point. No matter, he's leaving the Senate thus should be treated like the lame duck he is.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
That's not a ball room. It was being reported over an over while everyone waited for her concession that she was in a hotel suite the night of the election.
Michigan and Pennsylvania did not have early voting. Thus, the news that nothing extra was found on Weiner's laptop was known by Election Day by the voters. Not sure if WI had early voting.
SH
You say there ids evidence?
Provide evidence. I have not read any actual facts or evidence, merely conclusions.
You think Hillary was hawkish on Russia? well we have different definitions then.
BO did more than talk against Netyanahu, he gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to a group who supported V15 ( headed btw by the head of BO's campaign). V15 was of course for anybody but Bibbi.
YES Russia et al are trying to hack us as we are trying to hack them.
You say there ids evidence?
Provide evidence. I have not read any actual facts or evidence, merely conclusions.
You think Hillary was hawkish on Russia? well we have different definitions then.
BO did more than talk against Netyanahu, he gave hundreds of thousands of dollars to a group who supported V15 ( headed btw by the head of BO's campaign). V15 was of course for anybody but Bibbi.
YES Russia et al are trying to hack us as we are trying to hack them.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
The effect I'd point to was simply regurgitation of the cloud HRC was under. Nothing more. I think Mook pointed to the fact that their polling showed that the Johnson/Independents/Stein voters were breaking back to Trump first, then HRC until that letter. He stated they literally stopped breaking in her direction the day the letter was released.
None of this is to discount how poor a candidate HRC was.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Is now the time to apologize for not having the appropriate security clearance to receive intelligence briefings to share with Horn6721? Why don't you simply say "I don't believe the intelligence agencies".
In comparison to Trump? Without a doubt and look no further than Trump's treatment of Russia during and after the election. This really isn't debatable.
Remember who fired the first shot. For someone so worried about being more "hawkish" you clearly don't care that Netanyahu gave the middle finger to the sitting POTUS by going to Congress and giving that speech. One might expect Obama to retaliate in some way or should he have simply been a dove?
So we shouldn't care to investigate them hacking us then? It all comes down to "eh...we all hack each other and try to make each other look bad"? This is beyond politics but unfortunately some are too steeped in them to see that. If Russia did hack us with the explicit intention of steering the election to one candidate then we should respond appropriately.
Notice that Obama ordered the review to go back to 2008 where it's reported that China hacked both the RNC and DNC. The difference there is that they used whatever they could glean for their own use.
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Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Imagine the current Pepsi ad campaign then imagine me saying "This must be what JoeFan feels like."
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Of course we should investigate as I am sure other nations are investigating how we are trying to hack them.The question is what do we do then? I would hope we close ways they can access. We can not punish everyone especially since we do it as well
I have no doubt Russia and others are trying all the time
The issue IMO is the story that Russia gave wiki the emails from DNC and Podesta to help Trump. Well that and the Dems willingness to down play the sneaky tricks the Dems were willing to use to hurt Sanders as it was shown in the emails.
One other thing concerning is , OK say Russia did hack DNC and Podesta and gave Wiki the goods.
How did all that info get to the American voter in order to,as accused by Dems, influence the voter? Who got all this information out to the voter?
Was it a Russian news source? Or was it every single news, even semi news outlets day after day?
Why did media taint the Election? Why did they not ignore what all Dems say was an attempt to sway the voters from Hillary.
I have no doubt Russia and others are trying all the time
The issue IMO is the story that Russia gave wiki the emails from DNC and Podesta to help Trump. Well that and the Dems willingness to down play the sneaky tricks the Dems were willing to use to hurt Sanders as it was shown in the emails.
One other thing concerning is , OK say Russia did hack DNC and Podesta and gave Wiki the goods.
How did all that info get to the American voter in order to,as accused by Dems, influence the voter? Who got all this information out to the voter?
Was it a Russian news source? Or was it every single news, even semi news outlets day after day?
Why did media taint the Election? Why did they not ignore what all Dems say was an attempt to sway the voters from Hillary.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
Then why are you arguing my point about the need for an investigation?
We certainly should close off their access but not punish them? Just look the other way that they went further than any previous country in trying to manipulate our election? Really?
The DNC and HRC braintrust were clearly manipulative ********. That doesn't absolve the action of hacking them for the purpose of exposing them as such with the explicit purpose of helping an opponent. One of the wise Republicans said "it could be us next time." Regardless of party, this far outstrips any impact of financial donations.
Uh...according to reports Crowdstrike (the initial data security group) and others tracked the intrusion back to 2 sources inside the Russian government and have them handing the information over to Wikileaks. If this review validates the reporting, that's serious stuff. Most of your questions ignore that central premise. The Smokescreen is getting thick albeit this issue may be a spotlight through the morass.
Clean
5,000+ Posts
Didn't Julian Assange state that it wasn't the Russians that provide the leaked material? He said Wikileaks got it from an unnamed DNC insider.
The MSM doesn't play up what Assange said because it doesn't fit with the narrative they're pushing. If there is a traitor in their ranks, is doesn't inflame the base. Nasty Ruskies dealing the dirt, that's a reason to encourage electoral voters to reject the election results.
The MSM doesn't play up what Assange said because it doesn't fit with the narrative they're pushing. If there is a traitor in their ranks, is doesn't inflame the base. Nasty Ruskies dealing the dirt, that's a reason to encourage electoral voters to reject the election results.
At this juncture, I really don't care WHO did the hacking. What more people SHOULD be miffed at is the CONTENT of the emails that WERE released. Instead, the Dems want to point fingers and blame some unknown boogeyman for getting their *** handed to them on a platter in November. I guess they continue to find it easier to point fingers outside of their glass house than it is to admit the multiple failures inherent in the content as well as their computer security.
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
I'm not sure where you are going with that logic. Let's say someone steals my TV. I go over to your house and it's hanging on the wall but you didn't steal it but bought it off someone on the corner. Does that mean the initial thief is absolved of their crime? Shouldn't be investigated, prosecuted and punished?
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
In 2008 which is why Obama ordered the review to go back to 2008.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Seattle Husker
10,000+ Posts
I've agreed with that from the beginning. I didn't have a problem with the recount as long as it was paid for but didn't suspect it would do anything more than confirm the integrity of the voting systems. They helped Trump in that regard.
SH
I have never said there should not be an investigation
In addition to that IF Dems believe the Russians were trying to influence the election against Hillary they need to ask the media why they helped Russia.
If the info in the docs had not been reported over and over the voter would not have known the crap the DNC etc pulled on the voters.
I have never said there should not be an investigation
In addition to that IF Dems believe the Russians were trying to influence the election against Hillary they need to ask the media why they helped Russia.
If the info in the docs had not been reported over and over the voter would not have known the crap the DNC etc pulled on the voters.
Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
Since we have caught you in a moment of lucidity --
Since the election you guys have gone from
(1) recount, to
(2) fake news, to
(3) THE RUSSIANS!
We all know you guys will move on from this too, but what is next?
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