Eagles Requesting Campus Changes

Back many years ago when I was an undergrad at UT, I don't remember the students having a lot of power. Student government did not seem to be taken super seriously. The cartoon character "Hank The Hallucination" won student body president by popular student vote...

Back in my day students just popping off their mouths and voicing their opinions were not a big threat to the Establishment...

The fact that Brennan Eagles is not (for all I know) being immediately shown the exit, and is not being immediately being made by Coach Herman to run stands or do hundreds of push ups is pretty interesting IMO.

What I am observing from a perch some miles away from Austin now is that lots of people are all in a tizzy about this. Tempers are flaring. I think there are some uncomfortable truths below the tip of this iceberg that have not been addressed well yet.

It seems that a lot of folks just want these guys to just be quiet and play ball... don't think, just be quiet and play so we fans can all have fun Saturdays in the fall... What if some other players share some of Eagles' opinions...? oooh that is pretty scary...!

Our fans are smart enough to realize that players don't have to play if they don't want to... Risking spinal injury and CTE every snap might not always be that glorious...

The coaches are in charge of discipline. But maybe they think that it's kinda OK for players, who are students too as well as athletes, with smart minds of their own, to challenge some old practices... I think that it is in the coaches' interests for the players that they are recruiting to have good reason to believe that UT will be their university too... People feel more comfortable at a place where they can express their honest opinions and be listened to...
 
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UTLAWMBA1991 said:
Back many years ago when I was an undergrad at UT, I don't remember the students having a lot of power. Student government did not seem to be taken super seriously. The cartoon character "Hank The Hallucination" won student body president by popular student vote...

Back in my day students just popping off their mouths and voicing their opinions were not a big threat to the Establishment...

The fact that Brennan Eagles is not (for all I know) being immediately shown the exit, and is not being immediately being made by Coach Herman to run stands or do hundreds of push ups is pretty interesting IMO.

What I am observing from a perch some miles away from Austin now is that lots of people are all in a tizzy about this. Tempers are flaring. I think there are some uncomfortable truths below the tip of this iceberg that have not been addressed well yet.

It seems that a lot of folks just want these guys to just be quiet and play ball... don't think, just be quiet and play so we fans can all have fun Saturdays in the fall... What if some other players share some of Eagles' opinions...? oooh that is pretty scary...!

Our fans are smart enough to realize that players don't have to play if they don't want to... Risking spinal injury and CTE every snap might not always be that glorious...

The coaches are in charge of discipline. But maybe they think that it's kinda OK for players, who are students too as well as athletes, with smart minds of their own, to challenge some old practices... I think that it is in the coaches' interests for the players that they are recruiting to have good reason to believe that UT will be their university too... People feel more comfortable at a place where they can express their honest opinions and be listened to...
Click to expand...
Although the thread title references Eagles, we're all very much aware that multiple high profile football players (20+ I believe) tweeted the same message at the same time as Eagles. So, no, not scary. If you will read the dissenting replies, I believe you'll discover that those not embracing the demands of these players have primarily taken issue with the extortion-like manner by which these demands were made. Of course, you and those of like mind will discount this as a "shut up and play" response and I'm sure continue thinking everyone not in agreement with your opinion must surely be a racist pig.
 
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UTLAWMBA1991 said:
Back many years ago when I was an undergrad at UT, I don't remember the students having a lot of power. Student government did not seem to be taken super seriously. The cartoon character "Hank The Hallucination" won student body president by popular student vote...

Back in my day students just popping off their mouths and voicing their opinions were not a big threat to the Establishment...

The fact that Brennan Eagles is not (for all I know) being immediately shown the exit, and is not being immediately being made by Coach Herman to run stands or do hundreds of push ups is pretty interesting IMO.

What I am observing from a perch some miles away from Austin now is that lots of people are all in a tizzy about this. Tempers are flaring. I think there are some uncomfortable truths below the tip of this iceberg that have not been addressed well yet.

It seems that a lot of folks just want these guys to just be quiet and play ball... don't think, just be quiet and play so we fans can all have fun Saturdays in the fall... What if some other players share some of Eagles' opinions...? oooh that is pretty scary...!

Our fans are smart enough to realize that players don't have to play if they don't want to... Risking spinal injury and CTE every snap might not always be that glorious...

The coaches are in charge of discipline. But maybe they think that it's kinda OK for players, who are students too as well as athletes, with smart minds of their own, to challenge some old practices... I think that it is in the coaches' interests for the players that they are recruiting to have good reason to believe that UT will be their university too... People feel more comfortable at a place where they can express their honest opinions and be listened to...
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Actually I think they are turning into little fascists, dictating what is and what isn’t acceptable.
 
OrangeShogun said:
Although the thread title references Eagles, we're all very much aware that multiple high profile football players (20+ I believe) tweeted the same message at the same time as Eagles. So, no, not scary. If you will read the dissenting replies, I believe you'll discover that those not embracing the demands of these players have primarily taken issue with the extortion-like manner by which these demands were made. Of course, you and those of like mind will discount this as a "shut up and play" response and I'm sure continue thinking everyone not in agreement with your opinion must surely be a racist pig.
Click to expand...
Here are some definitions of extortion from Findlaw, a legal source that attorneys are familiar with. I will include the link. There are a number of similar credible definitions of extortion on the Internet.

Maybe Eagles and teammates were verbally challenging authority... Maybe they were taking a dumb risk, or a smart risk... But I hardly think they were committing any type of "extortion."


Extortion: Definition and Overview

"Most states define extortion as the gaining of property or money by almost any kind of force or threat of violence, property damage, harm to reputation, or unfavorable government action. While usually viewed as a form of theft/larceny, extortion differs from robbery in that the threat in question does not pose an imminent physical danger to the victim.

Extortion is a felony in all states. Blackmail is a form of extortion in which the threat is to expose embarrassing and damaging information to family, friends, or the public. Inherent in this common form of extortion is the threat to expose the details of someone's private lives to the public unless money is exchanged.

Another common extortion crime is offering "protection" to a businessman to keep his business safe from burglary or vandalism. For example, Dan goes to Victor's place of business and demands monthly payment from Victor for the business's "protection" from vandalism and after-hours theft. Fearing that he or his business will suffer harm otherwise, Victor agrees to pay Dan."

Labeling Eagles an extortionist is kind of like labeling a non-Nazi a Nazi ... it's a slur that the user hopes will stick, to make the receiver look like a much worse guy than he actually is...

See: Extortion - FindLaw
 
OrangeShogun said:
Although the thread title references Eagles, we're all very much aware that multiple high profile football players (20+ I believe) tweeted the same message at the same time as Eagles. So, no, not scary. If you will read the dissenting replies, I believe you'll discover that those not embracing the demands of these players have primarily taken issue with the extortion-like manner by which these demands were made. Of course, you and those of like mind will discount this as a "shut up and play" response and I'm sure continue thinking everyone not in agreement with your opinion must surely be a racist pig.
Click to expand...

The "do this or else" is the over-riding objection. That is not "shut up and play." That type of interpretation is flat-out incorrect. It's a red herring and wholly fails to address the clear fact of the communication.
 
bystander said:
The "do this or else" is the over-riding objection. That is not "shut up and play." That type of interpretation is flat-out incorrect. It's a red herring and wholly fails to address the clear fact of the communication.
Click to expand...
So is what Eagles did and 20+ members of the team actually did "extortion" then? Is it really "extortion-like"? Or just bad manners...??
 
There is a difference between "I disagree with you" and "Agree with me or else." Debate and seeking free consensus of the willing to your point of view is the way of democracy. If you speak the truth, it should be able to stand on its own merits without silencing others. Telling people they must agree with your point of view or else (and they are evil aka racist if they do not) is the way of the despot and the opposite of freedom and democracy.

I have no problem with opinion sharing. I do have a problem with the most privileged people on campus making unreasonable and irrational demands that simply seek to fracture the team and fans and destroy the program.

I do not want these athletes to "shut up and play". I want them and Herman to hit the road. There are 100+ D1 programs. Go find one they will be happy at. Someone else will take their place. Do you comprehend how many people would kill for the free tuition alone?

who are students too as well as athletes, with smart minds of their own, to challenge some old practices.
Click to expand...

When did athletes as group become smart? Are some athletes smart? Sure. The majority are not. The majority got in on far lower academic standards than most students and perform far worse academically. They are here for their brawns not their brains. I have never encountered an athletic team (regardless of the racial makeup of such team) where the majority of players were "A students".

Entertainers and artists (athletes, musicians, actors, etc) tend to be the least brightest among us as far as intelligence goes. Now it's not fair to paint people with a broad brush. Each person is an individual. Some athletes, musicians, actors, etc are quite intelligent. However, the % intelligent people among entertainers and artists is generally pretty low. They can express their opinions all they want, without making threats. However, we should value the opinions of spoiled privileged athletes who are not at UT for academic reasons the least. If they do not like UT, they should just transfer somewhere else.
 
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bystander said:
The "do this or else" is the over-riding objection. That is not "shut up and play." That type of interpretation is flat-out incorrect. It's a red herring and wholly fails to address the clear fact of the communication.
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The audacity of those spoiled UT players! But maybe being super polite and always agreeing has not gotten all of society where they need or want to be...

Back in 1950, just three years before my parents started attending UT, an African American UT student had to go all the way to the Supreme Court just to be respected enough to sit in a student chair at UT School of Law. The nerve of that guy! The audacity...!

See: Sweatt v. Painter, 339 U.S. 629 (1950)

at: Sweatt v. Painter, 339 U.S. 629 (1950)
 
From Google and the Oxford dictionary. Please also take note that I used the word extortion-like (picked that up from another lawyer on this forum). It means, you know, like extortion. I guess UT will first have to cave to their demands for it to legally be considered extortion? This is fun. What definition shall we look up next? Or perhaps we should begin debate on what the meaning of "is" is. Extortion | Definition of Extortion by Oxford Dictionary on Lexico.com also meaning of Extortion
ex·tor·tion
noun
  1. the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
    "he used bribery and extortion to build himself a huge, art-stuffed mansion"
 
UTLAWMBA1991 said:
The audacity of those spoiled UT players! But maybe being super polite and always agreeing has not gotten all of society where they need or want to be...

Back in 1950, just three years before my parents started attending UT, an African American UT student had to go all the way to the Supreme Court just to be respected enough to sit in a student chair at UT School of Law. The nerve of that guy! The audacity...!

See: Sweatt v. Painter, 339 U.S. 629 (1950)

at: Sweatt v. Painter, 339 U.S. 629 (1950)
Click to expand...

Are you comparing what's happening today at UT and OSU to that? Seriously?
 
UTLAWMBA1991 said:
Are you saying that African American people and other UT athlete "sympathizers" have no right to complain... or to want to make things better? Seriously??
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People think it’s not going to stop. It has to stop somewhere. Can the coach where a non-obscene T-shirt without the players revolting?
 
I think the dissent comes from how are some of the demands really going to make things better. Really. It’s seems to be a lot more of ‘I wants’ than really making better. I mean come on, the eyes do not mean anything like they are inferring. It is absolutely true, when you play for the Univ of Texas the ‘eyes’ of Texas are truly upon you. We are not TCU, SMU, Rice, or God forbid AnM. The eyes are on us, like it or not.
 
Htown77 said:
There is a difference between "I disagree with you" and "Agree with me or else." Debate and seeking free consensus of the willing to your point of view is the way of democracy. If you speak the truth, it should be able to stand on its own merits without silencing others. Telling people they must agree with your point of view or else (and they are evil aka racist if they do not) is the way of the despot and the opposite of freedom and democracy.

I have no problem with opinion sharing. I do have a problem with the most privileged people on campus making unreasonable and irrational demands that simply seek to fracture the team and fans and destroy the program.

I do not want these athletes to "shut up and play". I want them and Herman to hit the road. There are 100+ D1 programs. Go find one they will be happy at. Someone else will take their place. Do you comprehend how many people would kill for the free tuition alone?



When did athletes as group become smart? Are some athletes smart? Sure. The majority are not. The majority got in on far lower academic standards than most students and perform far worse academically. They are here for their brawns not their brains. I have never encountered an athletic team (regardless of the racial makeup of such team) where the majority of players were "A students".

Entertainers and artists (athletes, musicians, actors, etc) tend to be the least brightest among us as far as intelligence goes. Now it's not fair to paint people with a broad brush. Each person is an individual. Some athletes, musicians, actors, etc are quite intelligent. However, the % intelligent people among entertainers and artists is generally pretty low. They can express their opinions all they want, without making threats. However, we should value the opinions of spoiled privileged athletes who not at UT for academic reasons the least. If they do not like UT, they should just transfer somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Alright, Coach HTown... is that the speech you are going to give our UT players? Are you going to stand up before the LSU game and tell them that they are not smart??
 
UTLAWMBA1991 said:
Here are some definitions of extortion from Findlaw, a legal source that attorneys are familiar with. I will include the link. There are a number of similar credible definitions of extortion on the Internet.

Maybe Eagles and teammates were verbally challenging authority... Maybe they were taking a dumb risk, or a smart risk... But I hardly think they were committing any type of "extortion."


Extortion: Definition and Overview

"Most states define extortion as the gaining of property or money by almost any kind of force or threat of violence, property damage, harm to reputation, or unfavorable government action. While usually viewed as a form of theft/larceny, extortion differs from robbery in that the threat in question does not pose an imminent physical danger to the victim.

Extortion is a felony in all states. Blackmail is a form of extortion in which the threat is to expose embarrassing and damaging information to family, friends, or the public. Inherent in this common form of extortion is the threat to expose the details of someone's private lives to the public unless money is exchanged.

Another common extortion crime is offering "protection" to a businessman to keep his business safe from burglary or vandalism. For example, Dan goes to Victor's place of business and demands monthly payment from Victor for the business's "protection" from vandalism and after-hours theft. Fearing that he or his business will suffer harm otherwise, Victor agrees to pay Dan."

Labeling Eagles an extortionist is kind of like labeling a non-Nazi a Nazi ... it's a slur that the user hopes will stick, to make the receiver look like a much worse guy than he actually is...

See: Extortion - FindLaw
Click to expand...

The Nazi label of political opponents is typical of the extreme left. Your use of it renders your opinions extremely suspect because you have labeled the entire UT fan base as Nazi's.

As for the extortion comment, let's dissect it. But first I will say that if your Nazi comment was glib or flippant and not serious then I can stipulate the same with the extortion comment as I was not implying that the players should be arrested.

But imagine this: A person accepts a contract/scholarship in return for services. Everything that is objectionable was known at the time of the agreement. Then the person makes demands for change or else they will actively harm the program by refusing to perform actions agreed upon at the date of agreement. And the key point is there is nothing offered in return. Do this or else. No compromise. No quid pro quo on demands to alter the deal. Do it or your future will extremely compromised on a level from which you may never recover.
 
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UTLAWMBA1991 said:
Alright, Coach HTown... is that the speech you are going to give our UT players? Are you going to stand up before the LSU game and tell them that they are not smart??
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I understand the players want to make a difference. Personally, I’m afraid they are being used as pawns. Regardless of my opinion, at some point, YES, YOU DO HAVE TO SHUT UP AND PLAY. ITS YOUR ******* JOB!!!
 
bystander said:
The Nazi label of political opponents is typical of the extreme left. Your use of it renders your opinions extremely suspect because you have labeled the entire UT fan base as Nazi's.

As for the extortion comment, let's dissect it. But first I will say that if your Nazi comment was glib or flippant and not serious then I can stipulate the same with the extortion comment as I was not implying that the players should be arrested.

But imagine this: A person accepts a contract/scholarship in return for services. Everything that is objectionable was known at the time of the agreement. Then the person makes demands for change or else they will actively harm the program by refusing to perform actions agreed upon at the date of agreement. And the key point is there is nothing offered in return. Do this or else. No compromise. No quid pro quo on my demand to alter the deal. Do it or I will ensure your future is extremely compromised on a level that you may never recover.
Click to expand...

Hey, I said that our fan base would not want to sit around at halftime singing Nazi songs... that is saying that our fan base, myself included, do not like Nazis. That is not calling the fan base, myself and all of my UT friends and relatives included, Nazis.

I also said I was an independent. I've only been a Republican and an independent in my life, and I voted for Reagan and the first George Bush... That't not really being a leftist... You don't have to be a leftist to think that our athletes' ideas, and where they are coming from, should be listened to, and their rights to voice their opinions respected...

This Supreme Court justice, in an opinion today, did not think that LGBT people were getting a fair shake by their employers at work. He listened to a lot of LGBT people who had the audacity to complain about the system... This Supreme Court justice, who actually listened, is not a leftist... he is Justice Neal Gorsuch, President Trump's first conservative, Republican, Supreme Court justice appointee...

See: A Half-Century On, an Unexpected Milestone for L.G.B.T.Q. Rights
 
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bystander said:
The Nazi label of political opponents is typical of the extreme left. Your use of it renders your opinions extremely suspect because you have labeled the entire UT fan base as Nazi's.

As for the extortion comment, let's dissect it. But first I will say that if your Nazi comment was glib or flippant and not serious then I can stipulate the same with the extortion comment as I was not implying that the players should be arrested.

But imagine this: A person accepts a contract/scholarship in return for services. Everything that is objectionable was known at the time of the agreement. Then the person makes demands for change or else they will actively harm the program by refusing to perform actions agreed upon at the date of agreement. And the key point is there is nothing offered in return. Do this or else. No compromise. No quid pro quo on demands to alter the deal. Do it or your future will extremely compromised on a level from which you may never recover.
Click to expand...

Professional players, under contract, refuse to play all the time unless given a new better contract.
 
moondog_LFZ said:
I see. Don't tell people not to think like racists.
Don't tell people to think of you as an equal and take your feelings and perceptions into consideration.
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Sounds like a religion, man. I don’t go to a game for a sermon.
 
moondog_LFZ said:
And this isn't really about a game, is it?
Click to expand...
Appropriate avatar. 1000 plus posts, but can’t sponsor? Are you a freeloader? Dion makes it easy. We will call you out until you sponsor. Free speech isn’t free. Some people spill blood for it. You should spend some cash.
 
Alright, Coach HTown... is that the speech you are going to give our UT players? Are you going to stand up before the LSU game and tell them that they are not smart??
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I thought I was on Hornfans having a discussion. I was not aware we were practicing speeches for the LSU game. Is that what this thread was about?
 
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