Eagles Requesting Campus Changes

[4th_floor]

Come on guy. Of course it's a free speech issue. "or else I don't play organized competitive GAMES? Or else I don't invite my friends to play these games with me???" That's really not that serious an issue. "Demand with severe repercussions...?" Sports are competitive, fun games... Injuries are possible, yes, but playing sports is not really such a serious life or death matter...

I don't believe anyone has questioned Eagles right to state his ridiculous demands. In fact, I consider it a free speech issue. But the labeling of any dissent as RACISM is an attempt to limit the free speech of many of us. Eagles is on scholarship. If he really believes UT is a racist institution, if he really believes he has no free speech, he should enter the transfer portal or maybe join the BLM local and become a professional victim.

 

[Chinstrap]

Glad these athletes have found their own power. I happen to be a white guy, but I also understand that one's own perception and background mean a lot, and we all should respect that.
I can absolutely see where the known origins of the Eyes of Texas could offend UT African American players. And the fact is, it does offend--I don't think all of these athletes are making that up. Both of my great uncles were shipped to France during WWII to fight the Nazis, and they both risked their lives to do that. I would not want to be forced to, say, sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime...

I'm guessing, but probably 2/3's of the fine athletes we all watch on Saturdays are African American. They lay their bodies and futures on the line to play for UT. We want all of the athletes to feel good at the University of Texas, and to recruit their friends to play for us too. No UT graduate should be afraid of some free speech.

Glad these athletes have found their own power. I happen to be a white guy, but I also understand that one's own perception and background mean a lot, and we all should respect that.

I can absolutely see where the known origins of the Eyes of Texas could offend UT African American players. And the fact is, it does offend--I don't think all of these athletes are making that up. Both of my great uncles were shipped to France during WWII to fight the Nazis, and they both risked their lives to do that. I would not want to be forced to, say, sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime...

I'm guessing, but probably 2/3's of the fine athletes we all watch on Saturdays are African American. They lay their bodies and futures on the line to play for UT. We want all of the athletes to feel good at the University of Texas, and to recruit their friends to play for us too. No UT graduate should be afraid of some free speech.

How dare you use a comparison reference to the Nazi regime. People who reference the murder of 6 million jews and 2+ million non-Jewish Polish citizens when discussing the issues in the greatest country in the history of the world are downright shameful. It is the epitome of deceit and a disgraceful treatment of the Jewish people of the world.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

How dare you use a comparison reference to the Nazi regime. People who reference the murder of 6 million jews and 2+ million non-Jewish Polish citizens when discussing the issues in the greatest country in the history of the world are downright shameful. It is the epitome of deceit and a disgraceful treatment of the Jewish people of the world.

Absolutely their regime was horrible. Obviously, I would NOT want to be forced to sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime. I was using free speech, which you seem to dislike and find personally threatening, to make a point that I think a lot of our fans are not really listening to where the players are coming from. What is offensive to you personally may depend on your origins, family, and cultural history. The fact that our African American athletes (without them, UT would have totally lackluster athletic programs in many sports) are honestly offended should matter to fans who are actually listening.

I practice estate planning as part of my legal practice. About 10% of my clients are African Americans. Many have made great strides and have worked hard and become educated, and now have assets to leave for their children. Many of my white family clients have tracts of inherited rural lands, some of it going back to the 1800s, which have helped their families remain prosperous for generations. Almost none of my African American families own such inherited rural family lands.

That's because African American origins began in slavery in this country, and in the South, Jim Crow laws and persistent racism were not easy on them. According to the history I know about, slavery was pretty horrible too--deaths and torture. Why should African Americans want to sing a song if it had its origins in white people taunting them?

Grow up and start listening. I'm glad you are not U.T.'s football coach. I think our coach is doing a pretty good job of listening to where his players are coming from. Some of our fans could listen better too...

 

[Horns11]

How dare you use a comparison reference to the Nazi regime. People who reference the murder of 6 million jews and 2+ million non-Jewish Polish citizens when discussing the issues in the greatest country in the history of the world are downright shameful. It is the epitome of deceit and a disgraceful treatment of the Jewish people of the world.

So... this is interesting to me.

That because the American South did not commit a Holocaust, per se, that they can avoid nouns like "deceit" and adjectives like "disgraceful" when it comes to the 4 years of rebellion against that America.

And while the South didn't advocate straight-up murder of its 4 million slaves, its attempted subjugation of them (and desire to spread the chattel practice to the territories) AND treatment of freed persons when the conflict was over is glossed over because... why? Jefferson Davis et al weren't fascists? They didn't use gas chambers at death camps... which they wouldn't have done anyhow because those same persons were inextricably linked to the economy?

You honestly don't believe that there are reasonable persons out there who believe the Confederacy was deceitful and disgraceful?

Just think of a "One Good German" example and whether that guy's "heritage" should be memorialized. He was poor; he had no visions of acquiring seized Jewish wealth. He was just doing what he thought was best for his family and homeland. He saved 14 fellow Germans from death when he put out a fire at a training station. Should that guy get a plaque on the site of the fire? Maybe. Should he get a statue in full-on Nazi regalia in a public setting? That's more arguable.

 

[WorsterMan]

I would not want to be forced to, say, sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime...

I too had numerous relatives that fought in Europe & the Pacific - fortunately all came home. However you lost credibility with me re: the current situation reference to: "being forced to sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime". Absurd reference or comparison.

 

[4th_floor]

............
I practice estate planning as part of my legal practice. About 10% of my clients are African Americans. Many have made great strides and have worked hard and become educated, and now have assets to leave for their children. Many of my white family clients have tracts of inherited rural lands, some of it going back to the 1800s, which have helped their families remain prosperous for generations. Almost none of my African American families own such inherited rural family lands...

Why don't you use your free speech and let your white clients know what you think of them?

 

[4th_floor]

..........Grow up and start listening. I'm glad you are not U.T.'s football coach. I think our coach is doing a pretty good job of listening to where his players are coming from. Some of our fans could listen better too.......

UT is paying Herman to win and increase the value and earning of the Longhorn brand. I don't believe his statement that all white fans are racists and allowing this big schism to develop on the team will help. Time will tell.

Charlie never figured out why UT was paying him. Hopefully Herman will figure it out. I'm probably a racist for thinking that, right?

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

Why don't you use your free speech and let your white clients know what you think of them?

I will, and I do. I respect all of my clients. And I try to listen to where all of them are coming from, and to their various points of view, which I normally find educational and not threatening...

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

UT is paying Herman to win and increase the value and earning of the Longhorn brand. I don't believe his statement that all white fans are racists and allowing this big schism to develop on the team will help. Time will tell.

Charlie never figured out why UT was paying him. Hopefully Herman will figure it out. I'm probably a racist for thinking that, right?

I'm sure coach Herman is pretty aware by now that he needs to run a solid winning program. And I hope that he is successful, as all fans do. But scholarships or not, all of UT's players are volunteers, and they can all vote with their feet. I don't think that Herman's players are going to fight for him and UT if they think their very honest concerns are not being heard.

 

[bystander]

To play semantics by saying they didn't break the law is indicative of a lack of good faith and a lawyer trick.

How about this: EXTORTION-LIKE.

"You do this or we stop helping with recruiting." If you follow the college game, and if any of it matters, then recruiting matters greatly. And when they say, we won't help then you can be sure the program will be damaged for years because it will then be labeled as a plantation.

I can't believe you don't see this. Maybe that's what you want.

The fact is, it is clear that several on here are enabling or ignoring the inconvenient truth that they fired a shot a the university with the or else part.

And OF COURSE, it's just a game. But it's a $150 million PER YEAR game. Believe me, I could go the rest of my life without it because I did not attend UT. But though there are orange bloods on here, my point is that it is a big business that spawns cheating and demands for more money. From that standpoint, it's no game at all. And now we have the DEMAND for contributions to #BLM and to stop singing the school song which you have attempted to characterize as the same as Nazi's.

This type of radical false equivalency is indicative of emotional attachments that I can't help or understand. It is very harmful to the real issues that could be addressed, but you have painted opposition in the most stark and evil terms by bringing up the Nazi's.

I can only laugh. And I can stop talking to people like you. I hope I can but it's hard to ignore.

 

[RainH2burntO]

Dude, "extortion demands" is a little melodramatic, don't you think? I don't see any crimes being committed. This looks a little more like "collective bargaining" to me. Athletes are free to play or not play. Fans like to watch them play. Sounds like a good opportunity for dialogue... I really can't see anything that scary here...

And that's the problem with alot of our well-intentioned brethren here. In spite of education, in spite of intelligence, they just can't seem to see the connections between all of these isolated, "unscary" things and how they are most certainly connected to a very scary, non-isolated, trend in our nation. If you think what we are dealing with here is just about a few athletes being offended by what they feel to be symbols of racism, then you are indeed missing something much larger that will necessarily lead to dark days ahead. ... And this current debate/battle over racism will be remembered for what it is....one small cog in a big wheel of false hope and change that decimated a once great nation. Let me be clear:
There are evil, vile, disgusting, disturbing, selfish, power-hungry, subversive, and treasonous forces at work in our country. Understand how they work now or reap the whirlwind later.
Oh, by the way.....welcome to our little chat, UTLaw. Great to have you!

 

[bystander]

There are evil, vile, disgusting, disturbing, selfish, power-hungry, subversive, and treasonous forces at work in our country. Understand how they work now or reap the whirlwind later.

We know... and the Totalitarian Socialists on the Left are just as vile, power-hungry, subversive and treasonous. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

And that's the problem with alot of our well-intentioned brethren here. In spite of education, in spite of intelligence, they just can't seem to see the connections between all of these isolated, "unscary" things and how they are most certainly connected to a very scary, non-isolated, trend in our nation. If you think what we are dealing with here is just about a few athletes being offended by what they feel to be symbols of racism, then you are indeed missing something much larger that will necessarily lead to dark days ahead. ... And this current debate/battle over racism will be remembered for what it is....one small cog in a big wheel of false hope and change that decimated a once great nation. Let me be clear:
There are evil, vile, disgusting, disturbing, selfish, power-hungry, subversive, and treasonous forces at work in our country. Understand how they work now or reap the whirlwind later.
This goes out to you, too, Horns11, UTexRulz and all the other Longhorn loving ostriches in the house.
Oh, by the way.....welcome to our little chat, UTLaw. Great to have you!

That's all interesting, but pretty vague. You are not saying that is is evil for African Americans and others to want more respect, and more understanding about their own cultural heritage and concerns are you?

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

We know... and the Totalitarian Socialists on the Left are just as vile, power-hungry, subversive and treasonous. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

On this we may agree. I happen to be independent, so may not have a dog in the ongoing conservative / liberal fight. I have seen a lot of "liberal" free speech intolerance, which I also find disturbing. Anyone, conservative, liberal, or other, who uses violence or intimidation in an attempt to quash free speech is not respecting individual rights. At a public university such as UT, free speech, free expression, and allowing others to express their ideas should remain hugely important...

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

To play semantics by saying they didn't break the law is indicative of a lack of good faith and a lawyer trick.

How about this: EXTORTION-LIKE.

"You do this or we stop helping with recruiting." If you follow the college game, and if any of it matters, then recruiting matters greatly. And when they say, we won't help then you can be sure the program will be damaged for years because it will then be labeled as a plantation.

I can't believe you don't see this. Maybe that's what you want.

The fact is, it is clear that several on here are enabling or ignoring the inconvenient truth that they fired a shot a the university with the or else part.

And OF COURSE, it's just a game. But it's a $150 million PER YEAR game. Believe me, I could go the rest of my life without it because I did not attend UT. But though there are orange bloods on here, my point is that it is a big business that spawns cheating and demands for more money. From that standpoint, it's no game at all. And now we have the DEMAND for contributions to #BLM and to stop singing the school song which you have attempted to characterize as the same as Nazi's.

This type of radical false equivalency is indicative of emotional attachments that I can't help or understand. It is very harmful to the real issues that could be addressed, but you have painted opposition in the most stark and evil terms by bringing up the Nazi's.

I can only laugh. And I can stop talking to people like you. I hope I can but it's hard to ignore.

By the way, I think the difference between breaking the law and expressing your honest opinions is not mere "semantics." There's a pretty big difference between the two...

In your opinion, what should be the UT athletes' "punishment" for their "extortion-like," or "extortion-lite" behavior??

 

[RainH2burntO]

That's all interesting, but pretty vague. You are not saying that is is evil for African Americans and others to want more respect, and more understanding about their own cultural heritage and concerns are you?

No, I am not; and I have great concern for them myself. I am stating only that is is very hard to separate the nature and circumstances of this current movement from the other things to which I am referring. I wish it weren't the case. In fact, those concerned about racial issues would do themselves a great service to disassociate from some of these other powers that be....and many of the wiser and more discerning are.
In response to my ambiguity, some of it is due to this being a "football forum" (lol...use to be) and not West Mall. Our political and sociopolitical positions are more clearly stated there. As for the current issue as it relates to UT, my position is no to severing ties with APD and campus police, no to financial support for BLM, and we can talk about the rest. The problem is this isn't just an organic movement by a few, sincere and earnest, dedicated UT scholar-athletes, so for me that greatly complicates the issue.
I will add, for many today, what I said isn't vague at all. It is quite clear what is taking place.

 

[Chinstrap]

Absolutely their regime was horrible. Obviously, I would NOT want to be forced to sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime. I was using free speech, which you seem to dislike and find personally threatening, to make a point that I think a lot of our fans are not really listening to where the players are coming from. What is offensive to you personally may depend on your origins, family, and cultural history. The fact that our African American athletes (without them, UT would have totally lackluster athletic programs in many sports) are honestly offended should matter to fans who are actually listening.

I practice estate planning as part of my legal practice. About 10% of my clients are African Americans. Many have made great strides and have worked hard and become educated, and now have assets to leave for their children. Many of my white family clients have tracts of inherited rural lands, some of it going back to the 1800s, which have helped their families remain prosperous for generations. Almost none of my African American families own such inherited rural family lands.

That's because African American origins began in slavery in this country, and in the South, Jim Crow laws and persistent racism were not easy on them. According to the history I know about, slavery was pretty horrible too--deaths and torture. Why should African Americans want to sing a song if it had its origins in white people taunting them?

Grow up and start listening. I'm glad you are not U.T.'s football coach. I think our coach is doing a pretty good job of listening to where his players are coming from. Some of our fans could listen better too...

To you and number 11. The left in this country likes to throw around the Nazi chant in regards to FREE SPEECH by anyone they do not agree with. Trump is called a Nazi quite often by the liberal press. There is never any justification for a Nazi comparison in this country. Using that is ignorant and disgusting. You might say it is simply free speech. OK. So is the use of the "N" word, but it is equally disgusting and there is no place for that language.


You said, "our African American athletes (without them, UT would have totally lackluster athletic programs in many sports)". Curious to know, do you put wins by a football team as your number one priority? If people like you want to roll over on all issues that help with the recruitment of Black players and put the success of the football team as more important than values, then you should consider the relevant importance of these students.


As to your estate planning customers. I have a family farm that has been in our family since the late 1800's. Every generation that lived on that farm worked extremely hard and barely scratched out a living. My grandfather helped his neighbor whenever he needed anything. Windmill broke, he helped him. House burned, he helped him. This neighbor's farm did not have access to the road so he came across my Grandfathers place in his buggy to get to the road. Last week I visited with this man's grandson at the farm, as I often do. He is black, as was his Grandfather. They got their land for free at the end of the Civil war. His brother also got free land. One of my best friends is a Black man from 'Bama. His family has land they got for free at the end of the war. It happened frequently in the South.


I am sure that I personally know more about the treatment of the Southern Black than you do. And I am sure that I have lived a lot longer than you. So, don't tell me to grow up, even though you might think that your profession gives you the right to this arrogance.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

To you and number 11. The left in this country likes to throw around the Nazi chant in regards to FREE SPEECH by anyone they do not agree with. Trump is called a Nazi quite often by the liberal press. There is never any justification for a Nazi comparison in this country. Using that is ignorant and disgusting. You might say it is simply free speech. OK. So is the use of the "N" word, but it is equally disgusting and there is no place for that language.


You said, "our African American athletes (without them, UT would have totally lackluster athletic programs in many sports)". Curious to know, do you put wins by a football team as your number one priority? If people like you want to roll over on all issues that help with the recruitment of Black players and put the success of the football team as more important than values, then you should consider the relevant importance of these students.


As to your estate planning customers. I have a family farm that has been in our family since the late 1800's. Every generation that lived on that farm worked extremely hard and barely scratched out a living. My grandfather helped his neighbor whenever he needed anything. Windmill broke, he helped him. House burned he helped him. This neighbor's farm did not have access to the road he came across my Grandfathers place in his buggy to get to the road. Last week I visited with this man's grandson at the farm, as I often do. He is black, as was his Grandfather. They got their land for free at the end of the Civil war. His brother also got free land. One of my best friends is a Black man from 'Bama. His family has land they got for free at the end of the war. It happened frequently in the South.


I am sure that I personally know more about the treatment of the Southern Black than you do. And I am sure that I have lived a lot longer than you. So, don't tell me to grow up, even though you might think that your profession gives you the right to this arrogance.

I'll retract the "grow up" comment, and apologize for it; you have a right to your opinions.

I was reacting (too harshly) to your implication that I don't respect Jewish people's trials, or don't respect Americans who fought Hitler and the Nazis. I started my post that my own relatives (like yours) risked their lives to fight the Nazis, and free the Jewish people trapped there and the rest of the world from an evil regime.

I grew up in a small South Texas town with many of my own relatives small farmers and ranchers. Lots of Black people and Hispanic people too, and many friends there also. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am 57; not wet behind the ears.

If you are white, we can observe but have not lived life as an African American. Neither of us can really know what that that is like. But we can keep listening. And I keep seeing interviews and posts from African American UT athletes, both alumni and current, who are talking about how uncomfortable singing that song made them feel, once they learned about its origins and how it was first presented.

It's a song. I've sang the Eyes of Texas I'm sure hundreds of times, as both my parents met at UT, and I have attended UT football games all my life. I didn't learn about its origins until, like, this week. And when I did, I started thinking perhaps those athletes have a point...

No, winning football games is not the most important thing in the world. Listening to others and honoring their heritage, and making sure that all of our players feel wanted and respected is a lot more important.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

No, I am not; and I have great concern for them myself. I am stating only that is is very hard to separate the nature and circumstances of this current movement from the other things to which I am referring. I wish it weren't the case. In fact, those concerned about racial issues would do themselves a great service to disassociate from some of these other powers that be....and many of the wiser and more discerning are.
In response to my ambiguity, some of it is due to this being a "football forum" (lol...use to be) and not West Mall. Our political and sociopolitical positions are more clearly stated there. As for the current issue as it relates to UT, my position is no to severing ties with APD and campus police, no to financial support for BLM, and we can talk about the rest. The problem is this isn't just an organic movement by a few, sincere and earnest, dedicated UT scholar-athletes, so for me that greatly complicates the issue.
I will add, for many today, what I said isn't vague at all. It is quite clear what is taking place.

Long live the West Mall... !

 

[Chinstrap]

I'll retract the "grow up" comment, and apologize for it; you have a right to your opinions.

I was reacting (too harshly) to your implication that I don't respect Jewish people's trials, or don't respect Americans who fought Hitler and the Nazis. I started my post that my own relatives (like yours) risked their lives to fight the Nazis, and free the Jewish people trapped there and the rest of the world from an evil regime.

I grew up in a small South Texas town with many of my own relatives small farmers and ranchers. Lots of Black people and Hispanic people too, and many friends there also. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am 57; not wet behind the ears.

If you are white, we can observe but have not lived life as an African American. Neither of us can really know what that that is like. But we can keep listening. And I keep seeing interviews and posts from African American UT athletes, both alumni and current, who are talking about how uncomfortable singing that song made them feel, once they learned about its origins and how it was first presented.

It's a song. I've sang the Eyes of Texas I'm sure hundreds of times, as both my parents met at UT, and I have attended UT football games all my life. I didn't learn about its origins until, like, this week. And when I did, I started thinking perhaps those athletes have a point...

No, winning football games is not the most important thing in the world. Listening to others and honoring their heritage, and making sure that all of our players feel wanted and respected is a lot more important.

Apology accepted.

 

[RainH2burntO]

To you and number 11. The left in this country likes to throw around the Nazi chant in regards to FREE SPEECH by anyone they do not agree with. Trump is called a Nazi quite often by the liberal press. There is never any justification for a Nazi comparison in this country. Using that is ignorant and disgusting. You might say it is simply free speech. OK. So is the use of the "N" word, but it is equally disgusting and there is no place for that language.


You said, "our African American athletes (without them, UT would have totally lackluster athletic programs in many sports)". Curious to know, do you put wins by a football team as your number one priority? If people like you want to roll over on all issues that help with the recruitment of Black players and put the success of the football team as more important than values, then you should consider the relevant importance of these students.


As to your estate planning customers. I have a family farm that has been in our family since the late 1800's. Every generation that lived on that farm worked extremely hard and barely scratched out a living. My grandfather helped his neighbor whenever he needed anything. Windmill broke, he helped him. House burned, he helped him. This neighbor's farm did not have access to the road so he came across my Grandfathers place in his buggy to get to the road. Last week I visited with this man's grandson at the farm, as I often do. He is black, as was his Grandfather. They got their land for free at the end of the Civil war. His brother also got free land. One of my best friends is a Black man from 'Bama. His family has land they got for free at the end of the war. It happened frequently in the South.


I am sure that I personally know more about the treatment of the Southern Black than you do. And I am sure that I have lived a lot longer than you. So, don't tell me to grow up, even though you might think that your profession gives you the right to this arrogance.

Let's go ahead and send this thread to West Mall, after all....
That same left has waaay more in common with and employs practices that bear the marks of a totalitarian, Marxist, Fascist, Socialist, Communist, or related sociopolitical philosophy and is much more likely...I dare say guaranteed...to take this country there.
Control media = check
Fan flames of division and create crisis (then present yourself as the solution) = check
Build popular votes by pandering to disadvantaged or disenfranchised = check
Demonize dissenters and undermine their legitimate positions of authority or influence in society by any means necessary = check
Capitalize on disaster or tragedy for political gain and power grab = checkity-check
Fan flames of fear = check
Increase powers of centralized government = check
Erase or change history = check
Devalue life = check
Ends justify the means
Moral relativity
Relative truth
"Get rid of" God
= check check check and check
Utilize governmental/beaurocratic or public apparatuses for political purposes = check.
Transition from community planning to political activism to incentivized subversive activity against your political enemies and their allies or to destabilize existing power structures
CHECK
Let me ask you all a question....
Do you think these people who think it is fine to dismember a newborn baby really care about black people??
I could go on forever.
This is too easy...

 

[RainH2burntO]

I've got to say....
You guys drive me crazy, but I appreciate the honesty, sincerity, courtesy, and cordial discourse of UTLaw, Horns11, UTexrulz and a few others here.
It bothers me we can't agree on more...but I ain't mad at ya.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

I've got to say....
You guys drive me crazy, but I appreciate the honesty, sincerity, courtesy, and cordial discourse of UTLaw, Horns11, UTexrulz and a few others here.
It bothers me we can't agree on more...but I ain't mad at ya.

Yeah, I'm not sure yet that social media and opinion boards are a good thing. It's free speech all right, but pretty one dimensional and too easy to offend others when you are not looking into their faces.

I'm sure that if we were hanging around each other we could go target shootin' or something together then maybe have a beer...

 

[BurntOrangeLH]

In my younger days, there was a saying about societal change. Either you are part of the solution or part of the problem. Seems like this society has a lot of current problems who thought they had solved their prejudices.

There was another saying then also. Pull over and get out of the way or get run over. Way too many people here and elsewhere failing to defend white privilege because there is no moral way to accomplish that.

College athletes are speaking out on troublesome campus traditions. It’s time to listen.

As black athletes speak up, University of Texas faces 'neo-Confederate' origins

 

[mchammer]

 

[WorsterMan]

The left in this country likes to throw around the Nazi chant in regards to FREE SPEECH by anyone they do not agree with. Trump is called a Nazi quite often by the liberal press.

^^^ This.

 

[Omniscient.one]

@TEXAS1983

The vast majority of southerners did not own slaves or aspire to own slaves. The Texas Germans in the Hill Country and South Texas were mixed unionist and confederate, but almost none owned slaves or ever wanted to own salves despite having the money to afford them. My Texas German ancestors never owned slaves or aspired to own slaves yet fought for the South. Robert E. Lee inherited slaves and freed them. He had plenty of money to afford slaves and did not want them, yet fought for the South. One of my ancestors signed the South Carolina Ordinance of Secession. After the war, despite knowing what what happen, he lost the last of his wealth and political power supporting African American voting rights and opposing Jim Crow. It seems bizarre to me a former confederate and ardent secessionist would sacrifice his wealth and influence to support the rights of African Americans... unless, of course, ultimately, Africans Americans were not ultimately what the civil war was about. Given that the Emancipation Proclamation did not come until 1863 and given the existence of the Corwin Amendment, it does not seem like African Americans were the issue at hand for at least 1861 and 1862 for either side. I will add the New York City Race Riots (New York City draft riots - Wikipedia) further indicate that neither side thought they were fighting to decide the question of slavery.

Now, as a Constitutional law scholar who focussed on constitutional history by taking far too many classes on the topic at the University of Texas School of Law, I can explain to you the secession ordinances. You need to understand the legal structure of how declarations of independence are written to correctly understand a document.

In the US Declaration of Independence "He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands".

Did most Americans fight the American Revolution because they wanted to be an independent nation where they could make their own decisions or because they wanted to kill indians and take their land?

In the US Declaration of Independence "For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us"

Did most Americans fight the American Revolution because they wanted to be an independent nation where they could make their own decisions or because they were upset about quartering of troops?

Americans decided in 1776 they wanted to be an independent nation, control their own destiny and not leave decisions on their political questions in the hands of foreigners. Texans (and numerous other Mexican states) decided the same thing in the 1830s. In 1861, the South made the same decision. The message of a declaration of independence/secession document, is that the seceding party no longer feels they control their political future. In doing so, they must list examples where they have no political say. The thirteen colonies did this. Texas did this. Other latin american states did this. The South did this. Unfortunately for the South, it's example was a terrible and horrible one aka slavery. However, the endgame of the south was political freedom and independence, not slavery. How do I know it was not slavery or slavery alone besides the fact so many non-slave holders supported independence from the North?

If the South was just concerned about slavery, the South would have accepted the Corwin Amendment.
Corwin Amendment - Wikipedia

"Abraham Lincoln, in his first inaugural address on March 4, said of the Corwin Amendment:

I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution—which amendment, however, I have not seen—has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service ... holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable."

Lincoln "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

The Corwin Amendment was ratified by Kentucky, Ohio, Rhode Island, Maryland and Illinois. There were 13 other slaves states that would have ratified it. That was 18 of the 22 states needed to pass a constitutional amendment and "save" slavery. If the South would have realistically rejoined the Union if the Corwin Amendment passed and add Abe Lincoln's support, I have no doubt that at least 4 other states would have ratified it. Ultimately, slavery in the South was not threatened. What WAS threatened was the South's political power in the Union.

In fact, the South and North were in a never ending power struggle for political power... and in fact this continues into 2020.

During the English Civil War, the Southern Colonies sided with the royalists and the Northern Colonies sided with Cromwell and the Roundheads.

The first Presidential Veto in U.S. history was from George Washington. (Apportionment Act of 1792 - Wikipedia) It concerned a bill supported by the northern states to give them more representation and therefore more power in Congress.

The War of 1812 was so unpopular in the North that (Hartford Convention - Wikipedia) that secession was considered among Northern states. States Rights were the main issue here.

South Carolina considered seceding from the Union in 1832 over tariffs favorable to the north and unfavorable to the South (Tariff of Abominations - Wikipedia and Nullification crisis - Wikipedia).

Then the election of 1860 happened. For the first time in U.S. history, one region (the North), elected a president by itself. From 1788-1856, every US President enjoyed at least some support in both the North and South. Abraham Lincoln was the first U.S. President election without support in both the North and South. The South seceded in 1860, not because of slavery, but because the region as a whole had become political marginalized. The South felt it would lose its political freedom and be pushed around by the North (which it was completely right about and 100% has happened since 1865. I mean because of something that happened in Minneapolis, Minnesota, the Eyes of Texas and confederate statues have to go).

You believe in the lie that the South and North were one happy family except for slavery. That is not the case. Even without slavery, the South and North were founded by different people (puritans/religious people in the north and profit seekers in the south). The power struggle and civil war between the north and south was always inevitable with or without slavery. It continues to this day without slavery.

The South was fighting for its freedom and independence, just like the 13 colonies, Texas and other states in the Western Hemisphere. The south believed the states themselves were sovereign over the central government. The South wanted its freedom to decide its own political destiny, makes it own mistake and not live under the heel of yankee rule.

Write lengthier posts.

 

[BevoJoe]

Reposted from another thread by request:

Brennan Eagles made an all-or-nothing type ultimatum in a public forum. The university has a protocol for such student grievances to be made and provided a defined number of students sign a petition, the issue may be taken up by the Board of Regents during a previously scheduled meeting. As such, Eagles' demand, broke protocol by ignoring the established process and procedures for grievances, was made publically, and was in the form of "do it now or I won't play." Since his demand provided only a short period of time for action by the BoR to act, which most likely can not or at least should not be instantly granted, then perhaps the best solution for both him and the football program, is, (after discussions with and advice of the University's legal counsel) to rescind his scholarship (he said he would refuse to play if the changes he lined out were not immediately met; therefore, he has indicated his intent to disregard the terms of the scholarship contract), encourage him to enter the transfer portal, wish him the best of luck in the future and send him home. No one person is bigger than the University. He needs to learn that as it applies to coaches, athletes, professors, alumni, and all others. Hopefully, he may be picked up by another program, but then again, maybe not, since he has indicated a propensity to ignore established protocol and demand to have his personal grievances addressed immediately via disruption of the established due process and regardless of any other pressing issues before the Board. I wish him well in the future, but he needs to be shown the exit.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

Reposted from another thread by request:

Brennan Eagles made an all-or-nothing type ultimatum in a public forum. The university has a protocol for such student grievances to be made and provided a defined number of students sign a petition, the issue may be taken up by the Board of Regents during a previously scheduled meeting. As such, Eagles' demand, broke protocol by ignoring the established process and procedures for grievances, was made publically, and was in the form of "do it now or I won't play." Since his demand provided only a short period of time for action by the BoR to act, which most likely can not or at least should not be instantly granted, then perhaps the best solution for both him and the football program, is, (after discussions with and advice of the University's legal counsel) to rescind his scholarship (he said he would refuse to play if the changes he lined out were not immediately met; therefore, he has indicated his intent to disregard the terms of the scholarship contract), encourage him to enter the transfer portal, wish him the best of luck in the future and send him home. No one person is bigger than the University. He needs to learn that as it applies to coaches, athletes, professors, alumni, and all others. Hopefully, he may be picked up by another program, but then again, maybe not, since he has indicated a propensity to ignore established protocol and demand to have his personal grievances addressed immediately via disruption of the established due process and regardless of any other pressing issues before the Board. I wish him well in the future, but he needs to be shown the exit.

 

[Omniscient.one]

Lots of conflicting data from what I’ve seen. Though the numbers mostly show, but not in all studies, that blacks are more often subjected to the use force by police per capita, the statistics also require qualitative analysis/context, e.g. higher rate of interaction between police and blacks than other races. Data also show how bad Native Americans are treated by police, and in 2016 led in police deaths per capita. Under “Racial Patterns” section:

Police use of deadly force in the United States - Wikipedia