Coronavirus

I have degrees in chemical and biomedical engineering from a fine university as well as over 35 years of experience that included R&D work and complex models. I'm not familiar with BRAD models but I am confident I will be able to understand you despite your brilliance.

I read through the first couple of studies from China and found they lacked the details of the methods and that the conclusions did not necessarily follow from the published data.

I will read the remaining studies today.

You didn't respond to the study I referenced stating that masks cannot be shown to be effective in even in preventing infections in hospitals even in surgery. This study is one of many studies reaching a similar conclusion.

I copied these from James Fetzers' website. There is even a China based study that reaches the same conclusion.

Studies of Surgical Masks Efficacy: Masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease (even during surgery) - James Fetzer
  • Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.”
  • Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.”
  • Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002.
  • In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%.
  • A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.
  • Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.”
  • Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn.
  • Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.
  • Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden.
  • Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group.
  • Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same.
  • Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.”
  • Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.”
  • Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.”
Who is ignorant? Not me.

I actually read those studies, and I agree with them that the evidence that surgical masks prevent wound infections is poor at best.

I was aware previously that the evidence was mixed for wound infections and masks and unlike you I'm willing to admit when evidence comes to light that should change direction.

What you seem to fail to understand is that wound infections during surgery are a completely different animal than respiratory virus transmission. Of course you're not in the medical field so I wouldn't expect you to understand that anyways.

Wound infections are caused predominantly by bacteria spread by touch contact, not by breathing on someone without a mask.

So it makes total sense that wound infections would not be prevented by wearing masks but that has no bearing on the ability of masks to prevent respiratory droplet transmission.
 
There are actual laws related to taxes and seat belts that have some manner of a consequence. I do tend to ignore one of those two...the other one is a provision of law for which I know I can escape with no conviction.

That you insist on labeling 'anti-mask' people as 'right wing' tells us pretty much all we need to know about you, regardless of the politics of those reading your drivel.

The people who refuse to wear masks because the "government isn't going to tell me what to do" are almost universally right wing. I'm just calling out their hypocrisy.

I call out the leftists too. There are a ton of crunchy liberal feelgoods who are anti-vaccine and they are idiots just as much as the anti-mask crowd.
 
This is wildly wrong. They don't want the government taking their money by force (i.e. taxes) either.

But at the end of the day they back down like sheep and pay whatever the govt tells them to pay.

Like I said -- hypocrites.

When the state of Texas passed a mandatory seat belt law in 1985, there were a bunch of tough guys back then too who claimed that the government wasn't going to tell them what to do. But of course it was a bunch of false bravado tough guy, virtue-signaling ********. When they get pulled over for seat belt violations they pay the fine just like good little sheep.
 
This guy has graphed pretty much every state and country in Europe. I provide one example, but I encourage anyone who thinks mask prevent infection to go through his feed and look at all the examples. These are aren't studies with small sample sets etc. This is state reported case curves and flags showing what orders were made when.

 
That you insist on labeling 'anti-mask' people as 'right wing' tells us pretty much all we need to know about you, regardless of the politics of those reading your drivel.
I think that is going to check out as accurate. The correlation is STRONG.

Republicans, Democrats Move Even Further Apart in Coronavirus Concerns
"Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents are about twice as likely as Republicans and Republican leaners to say that masks should be worn always (63% vs. 29%). Republicans are much more likely than Democrats to say that masks should rarely or never be worn (23% vs. 4%)."

I'd further wager that the correlation to the "Karens" and "Brads" of the world who rant on social media videos in Trader Joe's is 98% Republican. :)
 
I think that is accurate. When I see someone wearing their mask while alone in their car, I think dumb*** liberal.

And replying to an earlier thread, my implication of the virus being over after the election was the liberal mayor reaction would be over. I missed that, but you can definitely see looser restrictions in many liberal cities I visit. It is certainly true in Nashville and you can start to hear it coming from other liberal mayors and governors about opening up their economies. I see a big swing on January 21 for some reason. But the actual virus isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We can't hide forever.
 
This guy has graphed pretty much every state and country in Europe. I provide one example, but I encourage anyone who thinks mask prevent infection to go through his feed and look at all the examples. These are aren't studies with small sample sets etc. This is state reported case curves and flags showing what orders were made when.


Honestly, this is the closest thing to scientific data the world has with this virus. Most everything first pronounced by the health community - from masks, treatments and spread - has changed and continues to change nearly daily.

My brother informed me last night that one of our old neighbors died of Covid. I had to explain to him that as 76 year old overweight smoker, he died WITH Covid rather than OF covid.
 
But at the end of the day they back down like sheep and pay whatever the govt tells them to pay.

Like I said -- hypocrites.

When the state of Texas passed a mandatory seat belt law in 1985, there were a bunch of tough guys back then too who claimed that the government wasn't going to tell them what to do. But of course it was a bunch of false bravado tough guy, virtue-signaling ********. When they get pulled over for seat belt violations they pay the fine just like good little sheep.
Complying with actual legislation is not "backing down like sheep". Telling a nutty mayor or governor overstepping their authority to pound sand is different. Kissing the azz of those same lib governors and mayors is more closer to being sheep than telling them to take a hike. As 4th Floor has illustrated with empirical evidence, masks don't work. Hey, follow the science!
 
I think that is going to check out as accurate. The correlation is STRONG.

Republicans, Democrats Move Even Further Apart in Coronavirus Concerns
"Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents are about twice as likely as Republicans and Republican leaners to say that masks should be worn always (63% vs. 29%). Republicans are much more likely than Democrats to say that masks should rarely or never be worn (23% vs. 4%)."

I'd further wager that the correlation to the "Karens" and "Brads" of the world who rant on social media videos in Trader Joe's is 98% Republican. :)
Your own quote shows that roughly two of every five D/D-lean respondents basically concur masks are crap. Amazed that there were some rational D's in that survey, since at least one out of every 25 have a clue...
 
The people who refuse to wear masks because the "government isn't going to tell me what to do" are almost universally right wing. I'm just calling out their hypocrisy.

I call out the leftists too. There are a ton of crunchy liberal feelgoods who are anti-vaccine and they are idiots just as much as the anti-mask crowd.
With each passing post, you show how much you subscribe to the 'people must agree with me or they will be disregarded entirely' position being adopted by so many left-of-center people in the media right now...
 
I see. People from Mobilhoma don't weather and geography good - at least not at the same time.
The seem to weather the tornadoes on a regular basis and still survive...to remain in a land prone to tornadic activity. Seems they have the combination down pretty well...

Just sayin'
 
Your own quote shows that roughly two of every five D/D-lean respondents basically concur masks are crap. Amazed that there were some rational D's in that survey, since at least one out of every 25 have a clue...
I don't think masks are the end all be all. They make a difference but they're not a perfect tool.

Also, the statistics are migrating a little closer together. I think that has to do with growing community spread.

Edit: reading comprehension issue.... :)
 
With each passing post, you show how much you subscribe to the 'people must agree with me or they will be disregarded entirely' position being adopted by so many left-of-center people in the media right now...

That's not true.

I just conceded to another poster who posted links that surgical masks don't do very much to prevent surgical site wound infections. Of course I don't think that has much to do with COVID transmission, but I'm perfectly willing to change my stance based on data.

That is something the anti-vax and the anti-mask crowd won't do. It doesn't matter how much data is presented or how many studies come out, they'll just cry "FAKE NEWS" and ignore it.
 
I don't think masks are the end all be all. They make a difference but they're not a perfect tool.

Of course that's correct. But there's a huge difference between your statement and the claim that wearing a mask is no better than wearing nothing at all. The latter is an absurd statement that has been debunked by data over and over again.
 
That's not true.

I just conceded to another poster who posted links that surgical masks don't do very much to prevent surgical site wound infections. Of course I don't think that has much to do with COVID transmission, but I'm perfectly willing to change my stance based on data.

That is something the anti-vax and the anti-mask crowd won't do. It doesn't matter how much data is presented or how many studies come out, they'll just cry "FAKE NEWS" and ignore it.
This, also, is not true. Fake news is, well, everything CNN puts on the air. I'm sure that 99% of folks would like data and facts that are not biased by political leanings, but they take work to discover.
 
I actually read those studies, and I agree with them that the evidence that surgical masks prevent wound infections is poor at best.

I was aware previously that the evidence was mixed for wound infections and masks and unlike you I'm willing to admit when evidence comes to light that should change direction.

What you seem to fail to understand is that wound infections during surgery are a completely different animal than respiratory virus transmission. Of course you're not in the medical field so I wouldn't expect you to understand that anyways.
OK first I don't have the appropriate scientific and mathematical background to understand. Now I can't understand because I'm not in the medical field. Riiiiight. Gee I wish I had your brain. You should probably do neck exercises to support all that weight in your head.

Wound infections are caused predominantly by bacteria spread by touch contact, not by breathing on someone without a mask.

So it makes total sense that wound infections would not be prevented by wearing masks but that has no bearing on the ability of masks to prevent respiratory droplet transmission.
Busy day today and little time for this stupidity until now.

So, let's say you are correct that the virus largely spreads due to respiratory droplet transmission. Do masks capture even a majority of these droplets? If you've ever worn glasses with a mask, you have evidence that significant respiratory moisture escapes the mask. Some comes out the top, more comes out of the bottom. I'll admit that spit and some moisture is adsorbed on the mask. I don't know if it's a majority of moisture or not. None of the studies I reviewed in your list addressed this. I didn't finish them yet. So maybe I missed something.

Also, do you want to address how to get the general public to wear the mask properly? I'll bet you've seen a lot of people with their nose sticking out of the mask. Look at the cars in your neighbor's driveways and you'll likely see masks hanging from the rear view mirror. Based on my observations, I believe few clean or replace the mask every time they take it off and on. Even fewer will clean or replace the mask every 2 hours or each time they change venues. Several people have admitted to me that they only clean their masks once per week.

So are masks effective, or are they personal germ collectors that we use to spread germs far and wide? When you touch your mask to adjust it and put your hand on the table or chair, are you infecting the next person who sits there? I've seen people come into a restaurant and put their mask on the table as soon as they are seated. Hopefully the surface of the table is sanitized. Still it's not a good practice.

But the biggest argument against the required use of masks is the continued spreading of Covid. Since the overwhelming majority of the country wear masks in public, how is the virus spreading so rapidly?
 
I would like to hear more from AustinHorn24 (a.k.a. Dr. Loogie) about how Covid Virions follow Brownian motion and bounce around, but then again they don't because they are attached to respiratory fluids. Phlegm, mucus and other cool expectorant vectoring theory is very interesting. I knew a kid, Darrell Larrison, in my old neighborhood that could hock a loogie about 30 feet and it was definitely in a straight line. Talk about overcoming the physics explained by Brownian motion! I think ole Bobby Brown would have had to rethink his particle motion theory if he hung around Darrell for any length of time. Anyway, focus on mucus Doc! Dumb it down for us retards that have drool dripping straight down instead of bouncing around our heads like LongestHorn in one of his mosh pits. Hell, you could even throw in a little calculus now and then to make yourself look smart. We'll just nod our heads when you show us how you can decipher the acceleration of spit.
 
I would like to hear more from AustinHorn24 (a.k.a. Dr. Loogie) about how Covid Virions follow Brownian motion and bounce around, but then again they don't because they are attached to respiratory fluids. Phlegm, mucus and other cool expectorant vectoring theory is very interesting. I knew a kid, Darrell Larrison, in my old neighborhood that could hock a loogie about 30 feet and it was definitely in a straight line. Talk about overcoming the physics explained by Brownian motion! I think ole Bobby Brown would have had to rethink his particle motion theory if he hung around Darrell for any length of time. Anyway, focus on mucus Doc! Dumb it down for us retards that have drool dripping straight down instead of bouncing around our heads like LongestHorn in one of his mosh pits. Hell, you could even throw in a little calculus now and then to make yourself look smart. We'll just nod our heads when you show us how you can decipher the acceleration of spit.
:bow:
 
images
 
OK first I don't have the appropriate scientific and mathematical background to understand. Now I can't understand because I'm not in the medical field. Riiiiight. Gee I wish I had your brain. You should probably do neck exercises to support all that weight in your head.


Busy day today and little time for this stupidity until now.

So, let's say you are correct that the virus largely spreads due to respiratory droplet transmission. Do masks capture even a majority of these droplets? If you've ever worn glasses with a mask, you have evidence that significant respiratory moisture escapes the mask. Some comes out the top, more comes out of the bottom. I'll admit that spit and some moisture is adsorbed on the mask. I don't know if it's a majority of moisture or not. None of the studies I reviewed in your list addressed this. I didn't finish them yet. So maybe I missed something.

Also, do you want to address how to get the general public to wear the mask properly? I'll bet you've seen a lot of people with their nose sticking out of the mask. Look at the cars in your neighbor's driveways and you'll likely see masks hanging from the rear view mirror. Based on my observations, I believe few clean or replace the mask every time they take it off and on. Even fewer will clean or replace the mask every 2 hours or each time they change venues. Several people have admitted to me that they only clean their masks once per week.

So are masks effective, or are they personal germ collectors that we use to spread germs far and wide? When you touch your mask to adjust it and put your hand on the table or chair, are you infecting the next person who sits there? I've seen people come into a restaurant and put their mask on the table as soon as they are seated. Hopefully the surface of the table is sanitized. Still it's not a good practice.

But the biggest argument against the required use of masks is the continued spreading of Covid. Since the overwhelming majority of the country wear masks in public, how is the virus spreading so rapidly?


You obviously didn't bother to read the studies so I'll do the work for you and make it easy.

Skip the other 10 studies I posted for you earlier and just read this one:

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

Take a good look at Exhibit 1 in that article.

url
 
I would like to hear more from AustinHorn24 (a.k.a. Dr. Loogie) about how Covid Virions follow Brownian motion and bounce around, but then again they don't because they are attached to respiratory fluids. Phlegm, mucus and other cool expectorant vectoring theory is very interesting. I knew a kid, Darrell Larrison, in my old neighborhood that could hock a loogie about 30 feet and it was definitely in a straight line. Talk about overcoming the physics explained by Brownian motion! I think ole Bobby Brown would have had to rethink his particle motion theory if he hung around Darrell for any length of time. Anyway, focus on mucus Doc! Dumb it down for us retards that have drool dripping straight down instead of bouncing around our heads like LongestHorn in one of his mosh pits. Hell, you could even throw in a little calculus now and then to make yourself look smart. We'll just nod our heads when you show us how you can decipher the acceleration of spit.

Umm, I hate to break this to you but spit does not move in a straight line.

It moves in a parabolic arc governed by the equation y(t) = -1/2 gt^2 + vt + y0

Cmon man this is basic 8th grade math.
 
Umm, I hate to break this to you but spit does not move in a straight line.

It moves in a parabolic arc governed by the equation y(t) = -1/2 gt^2 + vt + y0

Cmon man this is basic 8th grade math.
So proud of you boy! We knew we got the right guy to examine spit. Keep up the good work. Some may think your job is nasty, but it s not!
 
You obviously didn't bother to read the studies so I'll do the work for you and make it easy.
No, I read several of them. The first Chinese study was vague on the methods and seemed to draw a conclusion out of thin air. Another study used expert opinion as a method, which is inappropriate for trying to get approval for a medical device mandate. The coughing machine study was interesting and proved that masks were effective for the machine but had nothing to do with humans wearing a mask. The claim that N95 masks had greater than 99% efficacy was laughable.

Skip the other 10 studies I posted for you earlier and just read this one:

https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818

Take a good look at Exhibit 1 in that article.

url
Interesting. But retrospective studies like this have difficulty isolating the variables to prove cause and effect. I would like to hear the explanation for the current wave in California from these folks. IMO, this study alone does not justify a mask mandate.

The study at this link is probably the best one I have read. It shows that wearing a mask will reduce the travel of respiratory droplets, but wearing a mask alone is not sufficient to stop Covid.
On respiratory droplets and face masks
 

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