Coronavirus

Postoperative wound infections and surgical face masks: a controlled study - PubMed
If SCIENCE can't prove that wearing a mask during surgery makes a difference in post operative infections, how can you believe that a mask with about 1000 nm pore size can prevent the spread of a 72 nm virus?
Also consider the cloth masks have never been shown by SCIENCE to reduce the spread of any disease.
But go ahead with your religious beliefs.

I already explained this to you -- COVID virions dont travel as isolated 72nm particles, they are bound to water molecules in respiratory droplet form that are much, much larger.

I also already explained to you that COVID virions don't travel in straight lines, they following Brownian motion models and erratic trajectories like pool balls bouncing around on a table. That semi-random movement causes them to have high probability of becoming bound to the fibers in the mask.

Here's several studies which refute your claims about cloth masks in particular as well as mask efficacy as a whole:

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China - PubMed

Efficacy of face masks, neck gaiters and face shields for reducing the expulsion of simulated cough-generated aerosols

Effectiveness of Face Masks in Preventing Airborne Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 - PubMed

Textile Masks and Surface Covers-A Spray Simulation Method and a "Universal Droplet Reduction Model" Against Respiratory Pandemics - PubMed

Low-cost measurement of face mask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech - PubMed

Simple respiratory protection--evaluation of the filtration performance of cloth masks and common fabric materials against 20-1000 nm size particles - PubMed

Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks - PubMed

Face Coverings and Respiratory Tract Droplet Dispersion

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks | Nature Medicine

Ability of fabric face mask materials to filter ultrafine particles at coughing velocity - PubMed

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China - PubMed

Case-Control Study of Use of Personal Protective Measures and Risk for SARS-CoV 2 Infection, Thailand - PubMed

http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf

Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US - PubMed
 
So unless a person is a tax cheat, they can't have a differing opinion about cloth face coverings? Got it.

That's not what I said.

I said that the idiots who say "I'm not wearing a mask because the government isn't going to tell me what to do" are lying hypocrites who are virtue signaling.

It's the whole "I'm a tough guy and nobody tells me what to do" fake persona that makes me laugh more than the ignorant people who don't understand science.
 
I already explained this to you -- COVID virions dont travel as isolated 72nm particles, they are bound to water molecules in respiratory droplet form that are much, much larger.

I also already explained to you that COVID virions don't travel in straight lines, they following Brownian motion models and erratic trajectories like pool balls bouncing around on a table. That semi-random movement causes them to have high probability of becoming bound to the fibers in the mask.
Where is this established? What happens to the virus if indeed it does become caught in the mask? Can it be expelled as the wearer continues to breath through the mask? In other words, how do you know that a virus caught in a mask stays on the mask?
Here's several studies which refute your claims about cloth masks in particular as well as mask efficacy as a whole:

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China - PubMed

Efficacy of face masks, neck gaiters and face shields for reducing the expulsion of simulated cough-generated aerosols

Effectiveness of Face Masks in Preventing Airborne Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 - PubMed

Textile Masks and Surface Covers-A Spray Simulation Method and a "Universal Droplet Reduction Model" Against Respiratory Pandemics - PubMed

Low-cost measurement of face mask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech - PubMed

Simple respiratory protection--evaluation of the filtration performance of cloth masks and common fabric materials against 20-1000 nm size particles - PubMed

Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks - PubMed

Face Coverings and Respiratory Tract Droplet Dispersion

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks | Nature Medicine

Ability of fabric face mask materials to filter ultrafine particles at coughing velocity - PubMed

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China - PubMed

Case-Control Study of Use of Personal Protective Measures and Risk for SARS-CoV 2 Infection, Thailand - PubMed

http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf

Community Use Of Face Masks And COVID-19: Evidence From A Natural Experiment Of State Mandates In The US - PubMed
I haven't read all of these. There are a lot of studies from China. You do realize that Chinese studies have no scientific value?
 
Where is this established? What happens to the virus if indeed it does become caught in the mask? Can it be expelled as the wearer continues to breath through the mask? In other words, how do you know that a virus caught in a mask stays on the mask?

I can explain it to you but first I need to know how much you know about differential equations and BRAD models based on stochastics because you won't understand anything I have to say unless you understand that first.

I haven't read all of these. There are a lot of studies from China. You do realize that Chinese studies have no scientific value?

That's a BS cop out. Throw out all the studies from China and I still win. But the reality is you don't care what the studies say and won't bother to read them because you don't care to learn or change your perspective and would rather be the guy who thinks he knows it all without ever reading a book or a paper.

Remaining ignorant is a choice. Make yours.
 
That's not what I said.

I said that the idiots who say "I'm not wearing a mask because the government isn't going to tell me what to do" are lying hypocrites who are virtue signaling.

It's the whole "I'm a tough guy and nobody tells me what to do" fake persona that makes me laugh more than the ignorant people who don't understand science.

You do realize there is no "virtue signaling" in following the law by wearing a seat belt and paying taxes. There is NO law about wearing a mask. Just like all the libtard mayors and governors shutting down businesses. Its not a law and they have ZERO authority to force the issue.

Also, the flu is still miraculously at an all time low. Idiots point to the masks and mandates working, but the same idiots are saying the reason covid is spiking is because not enough are wearing masks and there aren't enough shut downs.

Its flu season folks. No wonder "covid" is spiking.
 
Liberals simply don’t listen because they are too busy virtue signaling. I never said all masks were useless. I have said anything that is not a N-95 is pretty much useless to the public. As you watch people walking around with their mouths or noses exposed, do you think it’s working at all? That’s a normal occurrence. Now let’s lay in the odds of whether masks are being washed or disposed after each use. That’s why it’s not working and why it’s actually more of a problem as those masks are filled with bacteria and other nasty stuff.

As for me wearing a mask, I do it because it will provide some protection to others if I’m sick and I don’t want to cause issues with the public or police officers. I wash the cloth ones every day or throw away the disposables after every use.

As for being a sheep on taxes, I’m an educated accountant too. Science tells me the IRS will come for me if I don’t pay my taxes. That doesn’t mean I don’t actively and legally exercise tax reduction efforts to minimize what I pay each year.
 
You do realize there is no "virtue signaling" in following the law by wearing a seat belt and paying taxes. There is NO law about wearing a mask. Just like all the libtard mayors and governors shutting down businesses. Its not a law and they have ZERO authority to force the issue.

Also, the flu is still miraculously at an all time low. Idiots point to the masks and mandates working, but the same idiots are saying the reason covid is spiking is because not enough are wearing masks and there aren't enough shut downs.

Its flu season folks. No wonder "covid" is spiking.
Google this flu thing. It’s historically low due to decreased travel and protective measures. We bounce it back form the northern to the Southern Hemispheres. It was almost non existent this summer in the Southern Hemisphere.
 
Google this flu thing. It’s historically low due to decreased travel and protective measures. We bounce it back form the northern to the Southern Hemispheres. It was almost non existent this summer in the Southern Hemisphere.
So the decreased travel and protective measures work on stopping the flu, but not on COVID?
 
Give it up. I fought this fight here about 125 and 175 pages ago. Back when this was going to be gone the Wednesday after the election.
Interesting. Part ion what you seem to not like about Trump is the way he delivers his message via twitter or whatever. Yet, you seem to agree with this guy who ha been nothing but abrasive and rude since joining.

Interesting.

Difference here, of course, is this guy is wrong.
 
Another note about the anti-mask people. They're mostly hypocrites who are doing right-wing virtue signaling while behind the scenes they do exactly what the government tells them to do.

They don't want the government telling them to wear a mask, but they sure bend over and take it when Uncle Sam tells them to pay their taxes and wear a seat belt.

They're sheep just as much as people who wear masks.
And, white trash. Don't forget that.
 
Another note about the anti-mask people. They're mostly hypocrites who are doing right-wing virtue signaling while behind the scenes they do exactly what the government tells them to do.

They don't want the government telling them to wear a mask, but they sure bend over and take it when Uncle Sam tells them to pay their taxes and wear a seat belt.

They're sheep just as much as people who wear masks.
This is wildly wrong. They don't want the government taking their money by force (i.e. taxes) either.
 
I can explain it to you but first I need to know how much you know about differential equations and BRAD models based on stochastics because you won't understand anything I have to say unless you understand that first.
I have degrees in chemical and biomedical engineering from a fine university as well as over 35 years of experience that included R&D work and complex models. I'm not familiar with BRAD models but I am confident I will be able to understand you despite your brilliance.

That's a BS cop out. Throw out all the studies from China and I still win. But the reality is you don't care what the studies say and won't bother to read them because you don't care to learn or change your perspective and would rather be the guy who thinks he knows it all without ever reading a book or a paper.

Remaining ignorant is a choice. Make yours.

I read through the first couple of studies from China and found they lacked the details of the methods and that the conclusions did not necessarily follow from the published data.

I will read the remaining studies today.

You didn't respond to the study I referenced stating that masks cannot be shown to be effective in even in preventing infections in hospitals even in surgery. This study is one of many studies reaching a similar conclusion.

I copied these from James Fetzers' website. There is even a China based study that reaches the same conclusion.

Studies of Surgical Masks Efficacy: Masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease (even during surgery) - James Fetzer
  • Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.”
  • Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.”
  • Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002.
  • In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%.
  • A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.
  • Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.”
  • Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn.
  • Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.
  • Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden.
  • Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group.
  • Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same.
  • Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.”
  • Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.”
  • Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.”

Who is ignorant? Not me.
 
I have degrees in chemical and biomedical engineering from a fine university as well as over 35 years of experience that included R&D work and complex models. I'm not familiar with BRAD models but I am confident I will be able to understand you despite your brilliance.
touche'
 
I'm just saying I was carrying the flag up the hill into the hail of bullets on the mask issue in the past. Statistically, there's a difference but debating masks here is quixotic.

You're assuming his whiteness, right?
He/she rails on white trash around here quite a bit. I don't care what color he or she is.
 
I have degrees in chemical and biomedical engineering from a fine university as well as over 35 years of experience that included R&D work and complex models. I'm not familiar with BRAD models but I am confident I will be able to understand you despite your brilliance.



I read through the first couple of studies from China and found they lacked the details of the methods and that the conclusions did not necessarily follow from the published data.

I will read the remaining studies today.

You didn't respond to the study I referenced stating that masks cannot be shown to be effective in even in preventing infections in hospitals even in surgery. This study is one of many studies reaching a similar conclusion.

I copied these from James Fetzers' website. There is even a China based study that reaches the same conclusion.

Studies of Surgical Masks Efficacy: Masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease (even during surgery) - James Fetzer
  • Ritter et al., in 1975, found that “the wearing of a surgical face mask had no effect upon the overall operating room environmental contamination.”
  • Ha’eri and Wiley, in 1980, applied human albumin microspheres to the interior of surgical masks in 20 operations. At the end of each operation, wound washings were examined under the microscope. “Particle contamination of the wound was demonstrated in all experiments.”
  • Laslett and Sabin, in 1989, found that caps and masks were not necessary during cardiac catheterization. “No infections were found in any patient, regardless of whether a cap or mask was used,” they wrote. Sjøl and Kelbaek came to the same conclusion in 2002.
  • In Tunevall’s 1991 study, a general surgical team wore no masks in half of their surgeries for two years. After 1,537 operations performed with masks, the wound infection rate was 4.7%, while after 1,551 operations performed without masks, the wound infection rate was only 3.5%.
  • A review by Skinner and Sutton in 2001 concluded that “The evidence for discontinuing the use of surgical face masks would appear to be stronger than the evidence available to support their continued use.
  • Lahme et al., in 2001, wrote that “surgical face masks worn by patients during regional anaesthesia, did not reduce the concentration of airborne bacteria over the operation field in our study. Thus they are dispensable.”
  • Figueiredo et al., in 2001, reported that in five years of doing peritoneal dialysis without masks, rates of peritonitis in their unit were no different than rates in hospitals where masks were worn.
  • Bahli did a systematic literature review in 2009 and found that “no significant difference in the incidence of postoperative wound infection was observed between masks groups and groups operated with no masks.
  • Surgeons at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, recognizing the lack of evidence supporting the use of masks, ceased requiring them in 2010 for anesthesiologists and other non-scrubbed personnel in the operating room. “Our decision to no longer require routine surgical masks for personnel not scrubbed for surgery is a departure from common practice. But the evidence to support this practice does not exist,” wrote Dr. Eva Sellden.
  • Webster et al., in 2010, reported on obstetric, gynecological, general, orthopaedic, breast and urological surgeries performed on 827 patients. All non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries, and none of the non-scrubbed staff wore masks in half the surgeries. Surgical site infections occurred in 11.5% of the Mask group, and in only 9.0% of the No Mask group.
  • Lipp and Edwards reviewed the surgical literature in 2014 and found “no statistically significant difference in infection rates between the masked and unmasked group in any of the trials.” Vincent and Edwards updated this review in 2016 and the conclusion was the same.
  • Carøe, in a 2014 review based on four studies and 6,006 patients, wrote that “none of the four studies found a difference in the number of post-operative infections whether you used a surgical mask or not.”
  • Salassa and Swiontkowski, in 2014, investigated the necessity of scrubs, masks and head coverings in the operating room and concluded that “there is no evidence that these measures reduce the prevalence of surgical site infection.”
  • Da Zhou et al., reviewing the literature in 2015, concluded that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.”
Who is ignorant? Not me.
That is known as a b-tch- slap! Hopefully Einstein's face won't have a permanent mark.
 
Hey 4th, I read some of those surgery mask studies awhile back when the discussion about public wearing was rampant. Very enlightening.
 
I already explained this to you -- COVID virions dont travel as isolated 72nm particles, they are bound to water molecules in respiratory droplet form that are much, much larger.

I also already explained to you that COVID virions don't travel in straight lines, they following Brownian motion models and erratic trajectories like pool balls bouncing around on a table. That semi-random movement causes them to have high probability of becoming bound to the fibers in the mask.

Here's several studies which refute your claims about cloth masks in particular as well as mask efficacy as a whole:

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China - PubMed

Efficacy of face masks, neck gaiters and face shields for reducing the expulsion of simulated cough-generated aerosols

Effectiveness of Face Masks in Preventing Airborne Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 - PubMed

Textile Masks and Surface Covers-A Spray Simulation Method and a "Universal Droplet Reduction Model" Against Respiratory Pandemics - PubMed

Low-cost measurement of face mask efficacy for filtering expelled droplets during speech - PubMed

Simple respiratory protection--evaluation of the filtration performance of cloth masks and common fabric materials against 20-1000 nm size particles - PubMed

Aerosol Filtration Efficiency of Common Fabrics Used in Respiratory Cloth Masks - PubMed

Face Coverings and Respiratory Tract Droplet Dispersion

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks | Nature Medicine

Ability of fabric face mask materials to filter ultrafine particles at coughing velocity - PubMed

Reduction of secondary transmission of SARS-CoV-2 in households by face mask use, disinfection and social distancing: a cohort study in Beijing, China - PubMed

Case-Control Study of Use of Personal Protective Measures and Risk for SARS-CoV 2 Infection, Thailand - PubMed

http://ftp.iza.org/dp13319.pdf

Hey... no fair bringing facts to a ******** exchange..
 
Again, funny to see anti Trump people agreeing with a poster who is nothing but rude and abrasive in all posts. Find one that isn't. Yet, Trump is just so mean.
 
Again, funny to see anti Trump people agreeing with a poster who is nothing but rude and abrasive in all posts. Find one that isn't. Yet, Trump is just so mean.
I was commenting on the post, not the poster, as is my habit. If you have been spared media of Trump acting in anti-social ways... that's kinda weird.
 
I was commenting on the post, not the person, as is my habit. If you have been spared media of Trump acting in anti-social ways... that's kinda weird.
Amazing you agree with that poster based on tone and language used. That seems to be the barometer, and if not for you then I apologize, for so many people to not want Trump around.
 
Another note about the anti-mask people. They're mostly hypocrites who are doing right-wing virtue signaling while behind the scenes they do exactly what the government tells them to do.

They don't want the government telling them to wear a mask, but they sure bend over and take it when Uncle Sam tells them to pay their taxes and wear a seat belt.

They're sheep just as much as people who wear masks.
There are actual laws related to taxes and seat belts that have some manner of a consequence. I do tend to ignore one of those two...the other one is a provision of law for which I know I can escape with no conviction.

That you insist on labeling 'anti-mask' people as 'right wing' tells us pretty much all we need to know about you, regardless of the politics of those reading your drivel.
 

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