Can anyone justify NOT having the Wall?

[Seattle Husker]

I appreciate the responses. Broke my strong hand wrist last week so it will be awhile before i respond to posts that require detailed and thorough responses.

 

[mchammer]

I appreciate the responses. Broke my strong hand wrist last week so it will be awhile before i respond to posts that require detailed and thorough responses.

Was AOC too hot for you last week with her GND?

(Just a joke SH - hope you get through physical therapy okay).

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[BevoJoe]

Here's some info from the GAO about cost and where the physical structure would be built.
Link:
https://www.gao.gov/assets/700/693488.pdf

Here's some info about how well the DDR's "wall" worked. IIRC over the years, the DDR Border Troops shot about 140 escapees, but more than 5,000 successfully crossed. However, that may be Berlin wall figures only.
Link:
Inner German border - Wikipedia

Fully loaded cost estimates of the wall with maintenance.
Link:
Trump's border wall -- how much it will actually cost according to a statistician

If the wall is approved and work starts, look for a jump in the number of illegal folks trying to cross.

 

[iatrogenic]

I appreciate the responses. Broke my strong hand wrist last week so it will be awhile before i respond to posts that require detailed and thorough responses.

I’ll handle posting for you while you heal if it helps. I can post both the honest and dishonest versions if you don’t mind.

 

[bystander]

I appreciate the responses. Broke my strong hand wrist last week so it will be awhile before i respond to posts that require detailed and thorough responses.

Hey, I just noticed your post. Sorry to hear about your mishap. I broke my pinky clean backward (a rather disgusting sight) and it took months for it to regain functionality though I have a crooked finger to match my crooked nose.

"Sorry to hear about your mishap." Sorry to hear... it almost sounds as if I didn't want to hear about it and I'm sorry I did. Ha...

 

[nashhorn]

I think SH once made a comment about Mexico was supposed to pay for it, without that check he's opposed.

 

[nashhorn]

Darn it, just now hit the "there are other posts" sorry SH. I didn't mean to sound mean when you're down, just sarcastic.

 

[bystander]

I think SH once made a comment about Mexico was supposed to pay for it, without that check he's opposed.

Well maybe he thinks it's not worth the money but if it's free then there's no harm. Of course, there are other activists who are saying the wall will interfere with the natural migration patterns of wildlife. So there is always an objection from the Left; free wall or not.

 

[iatrogenic]

Well maybe he thinks it's not worth the money but if it's free then there's no harm. Of course, there are other activists who are saying the wall will interfere with the natural migration patterns of wildlife. So there is always an objection from the Left; free wall or not.

Fortunately, doves and butterflies are magically able to avoid fences.

 

[bystander]

Fortunately, doves and butterflies are magically able to avoid fences.

'Death sentence': butterfly sanctuary to be bulldozed for Trump's border wall

I think you're right but this article is about a butterfly sanctuary. I have a feeling the entire border will become holy ground before long.

 

[Horn6721]

Can any Dem on here help us understand why so many Dems are calling for detention centers housing illegals and illegal families closed?
More so called family units are coming in. Should they just be released?

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

there are other activists who are saying the wall will interfere with the natural migration patterns of wildlife

It's not cool to refer to illegal aliens as "wildlife".

 

[Mr. Deez]

Too often folks can’t seem to see the forest for the trees. Allow me to take a simplistic approach. Basically common sense.

Are people attempting to enter our southern border illegally? It’s unequivocal. YES

Do walls provide a barrier to entry. Again, unequivocal: YES

It is a barrier, but it's a surmountable barrier unless reinforced by armed personnel ready and willing to do whatever it takes to stop them. Nobody's talking about that.

In addition, even if we assume that it'll stop a large number of border crossers, it has no impact at all on visa overstays. That isn't a reason not to build a wall, but it is a reason to question its effectiveness in stopping the overall problem. It's a lot of political capital to blow for something that leaves a very large part of the problem unaddressed. We could be expending far less political capital for other solutions that would do far more.

If extending the wall will add a measure of additional security and stop a percentage of the illegal flow and the drugs, why would anyone oppose it.?

Like I've said before, this is the same argument gun control advocates make. Just because a government action might have a marginal positive effect, that doesn't make that action wise.

Again, a penny out of every $10 of the budget is all Trump is requesting. That amount times two or more probably disappears out of the budget every year.

The fiscal argument is silly and made in bad faith. If you oppose entitlement reform and therefore advocate wasting trillions, you have no credibility getting upset about the cost of the wall, which costs an infinitesimal amount by comparison.

Finally, the argument that illegals commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens already here has no relevance. How many crimes would illegals commit in this country if they couldn’t get here? The answer is zero.

You're correct. It has no relevance. This is an example of the sides talking past each other. The Left brings this up, because they construe and want to frame the Right's criticism of illegal immigrant crime to be that citizens are better or less violent than illegal immigrants. The true basis for the Right's criticism is that illegal immigrant crime is particularly bad, because it is avoidable.

 

[Horn6721]

MrD
There should be a push to identify and push/deport people who overstay their visas but I am guessing not many who overstay visas are committing other crimes or draining our resources.

I wish there was more support to go after employers.
The thing the wall does is KEEP ILLEGALS OUT.
Yes we need to use all the tech we can but tech does not stop anyone from getting in. Once in it is harder and more expensive to deal with

 

[Phil Elliott]

Deez will only accept a perfect solution. In the absence of that, he prefers to do nothing. He makes a good liberal on this issue.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez will only accept a perfect solution. In the absence of that, he prefers to do nothing. He makes a good liberal on this issue.

Not so. Like I've said previously, I'm indifferent about the wall. If it makes you all feel better to have it, then I'm ok with it. Build the wall. However, I would hope that we could combine it with a real effort to deal with the broader problem - e-verify coupled with a real deterrent to hiring illegal aliens, better port security, real criminal sanctions for visa overstayers, etc. Those would be far more effective and infinitely more difficult to oppose. As I've said before, the private civil action would end 98 percent of the problem by the end of the week and cost less than a mile of wall, but I'm not expecting perfection.

 

[Garmel]

Not so. Like I've said previously, I'm indifferent about the wall. If it makes you all feel better to have it, then I'm ok with it. Build the wall. However, I would hope that we could combine it with a real effort to deal with the broader problem - e-verify coupled with a real deterrent to hiring illegal aliens, better port security, real criminal sanctions for visa overstayers, etc. Those would be far more effective and infinitely more difficult to oppose. As I've said before, the private civil action would end 98 percent of the problem by the end of the week and cost less than a mile of wall, but I'm not expecting perfection.

What's this private civil action that you speak of?

 

[Monahorns]

Of course, there are other activists who are saying the wall will interfere with the natural migration patterns of wildlife. So there is always an objection from the Left; free wall or not.

I would hate for a wall to end the monarch butterfly migration in North America. They fly right over the Tex/Mex border in South Texas. Could eliminate the population if thought isn't put into it.

 

[dukesteer]

MrD, let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good.

 

[iatrogenic]

I would hate for a wall to end the monarch butterfly migration in North America. They fly right over the Tex/Mex border in South Texas. Could eliminate the population if thought isn't put into it.

If we can manage to keep the wall under 1,000 feet tall, we should be okay.

 

[Mr. Deez]

MrD, let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good.

I'm not doing that at all. Opposing all border security plans because they have a wall would be letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Like I said, I'm willing to accept a wall as a "cost of doing political business" even if I think it's a goofy idea. I'm not in a pissing match on this like almost everyone else on both sides is.

 

[Mr. Deez]

What's this private civil action that you speak of?

I've explained it here before but not in a long time. The private civil action would be based on the False Claims Act or what is often called "qui tam" litigation. It would allow whistleblowers to sue, on behalf of and in the name of the government, employers and contractors who hire illegal immigrants and hold them liable for unpaid taxes, government costs associated with the illegal immigrant and his family, and other statutory penalties (for example, $500 per illegal immigrant per day of employment). The government keeps the bulk of the recovery, but you let the whistleblower keep a 10 or 15 percent piece of the action. I'd couple the action with a safe harbor for businesses that use e-verify. If you use e-verify, you owe nothing even if the worker ends up illegal. I'd also eliminate all discrimination lawsuits that pertain to immigration status.

So what are the upsides? First, you impose a major financial risk to hiring illegal aliens that would almost surely tip the scales against doing so. Illegal immigrant enjoyment opportunities would literally dry up overnight. Second, you force the crooks who are making money off of a criminal enterprise to bear its costs rather than the taxpayer. Third, and most important, because it's a private action rather than a government-driven action, the law gets enforced even if we have an adminstration in office that is pro-illegal immigration.

 

[Horn6721]

I wonder what the divide is among employers openly hiring illegals versus employers hiring illegals with fake documents that one might think suspect but on first look appear legit?
It gets very dicey to question documents that pass first look.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I wonder what the divide is among employers openly hiring illegals versus employers hiring illegals with fake documents that one might think suspect but on first look appear legit?
It gets very dicey to question documents that pass first look.

Not if you use e-verify. Then you simply tell the candidate "take it up with the feds".

 

[Mr. Deez]

I wonder what the divide is among employers openly hiring illegals versus employers hiring illegals with fake documents that one might think suspect but on first look appear legit?
It gets very dicey to question documents that pass first look.

Because of what I did and whom I represented, I handled hundreds of fake Social Security cards. None of them would have fooled somebody who had ever handled a real one. They can look real like a xeroxed copy of a $100 bill looks real.

The purpose of the fake SS card isn't to fool the employer. It's to give him plausible deniability. I've even heard of employers helping his workers get fake SS cards.

Either way, that's the beauty of e-verify. You don't have to be able to know when presented with a fake ID.

 

[Horn6721]

SH
ONLY if there is something hinky about the ssn, like the person it belongs to is dead.
If it is a legit ssn nothing would get flagged

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Joe Fan]

Contrary to what Beto and other leftists have been saying, this DHS graph shows that when the wall was built, illegal crossings dropped significantly

 

[Joe Fan]

This does make some sense given Beto wants to 'tear down this wall!"

Don Trump Jr. in El Paso on Beto O'Rourke's "rally" attended by tens of people

“I’d be more impressed if he had the guts to go do his rally on the Juarez side, on the other side of the wall"​