Can anyone justify NOT having the Wall?

[Seattle Husker]

Here we go. I see what you're trying to do and I'm not going to play your game of semantics. 20% of criminals in federal prisons are illegal aliens are they not?

What I did? Surely you jest. That wasn't your original claim. You claimed 20% of crimes were committed by illegal immigrants. Your link doesn't even make that claim which is why I offered you the chance of quoting it.

Your persistent claim is that I'm inaccurate. Want to admit your own faux pas?

You didn't just move the goalposts but rather switched sports.

 

[Garmel]

What I did? Surely you jest. That wasn't your original claim. You claimed 20% of crimes were committed by illegal immigrants. Your link doesn't even make that claim which is why I offered you the chance of quoting it.

You didn't just move the goalposts but rather switched sports.

I did misspeak but I didn't move the goalposts. Instead of them being 20% of all crime (which i said)they are actually 20% of all prisoners which is even worse, especially since they are only 3-5% of the population! You really want to go there? is that your big win over me? LOL!

 

[bystander]

I think it's a red herring to argue comparative crime statistics between illegal aliens and US citizens. The law is the law. There is no need to justify it. If they sneak over they should be deported, regardless of their character. The question is how to enforce the law. The recent response from the Left has been aggressively arrogant politicians like Kamala and AOC in support of illegal no matter what they do, sanctuary cities, calls for open borders, elected officials tipping off potential deportees to impending raids and calls to abolish ICE. As far as I'm concerned, the FLOOD of illegal aliens entering our country and the clear enabling of it by the Left provoked calls for the wall. This is the blow-back. I don't blame Trump one bit for pursuing it.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I did misspeak but I didn't move the goalposts. Instead of them being 20% of all crime (which i said)they are actually 20% of all prisoners which is even worse, especially since they are only 3-5% of the population! You really want to go there? is that your big win over me? LOL!

Not trying to get any win but do you realize how far off you were? You said "20% of all crime" denoting federal, state and local. You then show federal prison population. This wasn't a small exaggeration but rather significant. We aren't talking altetnative facts but rather made up facts.

 

[Garmel]

Not trying to get any win but do you realize how far off you were? You said "20% of all crime" denoting federal, state and local. You then show federal prison population. This wasn't a small exaggeration but rather significant. We aren't talking altetnative facts but rather made up facts.

I'll gladly take being wrong since it makes my position even stronger. Of course with everything being equal it's more than likely that 20% of crime = 20% of prisoners. At most it's a percentage point or two difference.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I think it's a red herring to argue comparative crime statistics between illegal aliens and US citizens.

Why are these arguments being made? Hint: "They're sending rapists, criminals..." Trump continues to try to dehumanize these people just as Garmel did. When you have to lie and exaggerate your arguments to drive a narrative home, shouldn't you expect to be corrected?

The law is the law. There is no need to justify it. If they sneak over they should be deported, regardless of their character.

No argument with this.

As far as I'm concerned, the FLOOD of illegal aliens entering our country and the clear enabling of it by the Left provoked calls for the wall. This is the blow-back. I don't blame Trump one bit for pursuing it.

Flood? It's one thing to pursue illegal immigration as an issue. I don't blame Trump for seizing it but the policies, style ("infestation") and gross lies ate too much to sit idly by.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I'll gladly take being wrong since it makes my position even stronger. Of course with everything being equal it's more than likely that 20% of crime = 20% of prisoners. At most it's a percentage point or two difference.

You still don't get how far off you are.

 

[bystander]

Why are these arguments being made? Hint: "They're sending rapists, criminals..." Trump continues to try to dehumanize these people just as Garmel did. When you have to lie and exaggerate your arguments to drive a narrative home, shouldn't you expect to be corrected?



No argument with this.



Flood? It's one thing to pursue illegal immigration as an issue. I don't blame Trump for seizing it but the policies, style ("infestation") and gross lies ate too much to sit idly by.

Well, I'm not arguing the statistics. I have no idea what they are and don't have the time or inclination to prove it out. Even one crime by an illegal alien creates a heightened sense of demand in me to do something about it. I did not approve of Trump trying to justify his desire to enforce our immigration laws. It was dumb. There was no need for it. I've said it before, all he had to do was forcefully emphasize it in his platform. I called it a flood because it is. I'm not dehumanizing anyone. That's not my intention. I think the border is a sieve. I'm hearing from the front lines (the friends I have in South Texas including many Hispanics).

 

[Garmel]

Why are these arguments being made? Hint: "They're sending rapists, criminals..." Trump continues to try to dehumanize these people just as Garmel did. When you have to lie and exaggerate your arguments to drive a narrative home, shouldn't you expect to be corrected?

Dehumanize these people? I've said many times that legal immigrants and green carders do not even commit as much as much crime as Americans. The border is a cartel haven.

 

[Garmel]

You still don't get how far off you are.

I'm still not far off at all. At most a few percentage points. Law of averages pretty much say so.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I'm still not far off at all. At most a few percentage points. Law of averages pretty much say so.

"20% of all crime"

Think about it overnight.

 

[Garmel]

"20% of all crime"

Think about it overnight.

3-5% of the illegal population is 20% of the prison population. Think about it overnight.

 

[mchammer]

First, crime in the illegal immigrant community is likely under-reported for obvious reasons, thus making comparisons impossible. Second, who cares about rates of crime when you are a victim of a crime from an illegal immigrant? Is that supposed to give your child or parent back or make you feel better? Finally, criminals from Latin America are some of the most violent, if not the most violent, on earth. That’s a fact. Compare murder rates around the globe.

 

[Mr. Deez]

3-5% of the illegal population is 20% of the prison population. Think about it overnight.

Hold your wad, Bro. If you're looking at the federal prison population, that's not going to be particularly helpful in analyzing the problem, because it's a very small sample of the criminal population. Most criminal prosecutions happen at the state and local levels and involve a very different kind of crimes, so you'd need state and local data. I don't know if that data supports your overall point. It might, but it's probably not possible to get that data since not all states report the immigration statuses of their inmates.

I would guess that federal prosecutions probably are more likely to involve illegal immigrants than state prosecutions because of the nature of the crimes - lots of immigration and drug smuggling crimes.

 

[Garmel]

Hold your wad, Bro. If you're looking at the federal prison population, that's not going to be particularly helpful in analyzing the problem, because it's a very small sample of the criminal population. Most criminal prosecutions happen at the state and local levels and involve a very different kind of crimes, so you'd need state and local data. I don't know if that data supports your overall point. It might, but it's probably not possible to get that data since not all states report the immigration statuses of their inmates.

I would guess that federal prosecutions probably are more likely to involve illegal immigrants than state prosecutions because of the nature of the crimes - lots of immigration and drug smuggling crimes.

Quite true. My numbers are off when you take out the drugs. However, looking at that article's numbers when you take out the drugs and immigration they are still incarcerated at a higher rate at the fed level than citizens.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Quite true. My numbers are off when you take out the drugs. However, looking at that article's numbers when you take out the drugs and immigration they are still incarcerated at a higher rate at the fed level than citizens.

That's because you are only looking at Federal, which goes back to my original that you're missing state and local numbers thus any claim that "20% of all crime" has a major hole.

 

[Garmel]

That's because you are only looking at Federal, which goes back to my original that you're missing state and local numbers thus any claim that "20% of all crime" has a major hole.

Okay, I'll freely admit to being wrong on that. However, when you take out the drugs and illegal immigration they still are at a higher level than legals at the fed level. Here's the study that I think I mixed up with this one in my mind. Illegals commit crimes at double the rate of native-born: Study

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

100% of illegal immigrants have committed at least one crime. That's without question. The percentage of them who are in jail for something is a rather superfluous argument.

 

[Monahorns]

I have always thought that it doesn't matter what the rate of crime is for illegal immigrants. It could be higher or lower than the native population, either way I want the flow of illegals stopped.

Why? Because I am looking absolute crime occurrences not rates of population subsets. Letting in 1 more thief means there is more theft in our country. Letting in 1 more murderer means there is more murder in our country. That is reason enough to get tough on illegal immigration regardless of what policies you want to use to accomplish that.

 

[I35]

Can we now change the title of this thread to “Can anyone not Justify the Wall?”

 

[Horn6721]

I 35

Done

 

[Joe Fan]

 

[Horn6721]

I guess 325 illegals in one area at one time are not large enough to be a crisis.

 

[Garmel]

I guess 325 illegals in one area at one time are not large enough to be a crisis.

Nor are the multiple caravans filled with thousands.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Smuggling 325 people across the border. Sneaky level = 0. Maybe they were hoping to get caught?

 

[Monahorns]

Not sneaky, but I bet the family who owns the land they are crossing agrees it is a crisis.

 

[Horn6721]

SH
Do you know how much those 325 will cost us a year??
If it is only $1,000.00 that is still taking our taxpayer money and that is draining our resources.

Do you think that is the only place illegals are crossing over ?

 

[Vol Horn 4 Life]

Husker, if you would please define what specific facts and data would absolutely convince you that the wall is necessary then I will go hunting for it. Not generalizations, very specific data. 1,000 illegals a week? 10,000 illegals per week? A billion per year spent on illegals? 10 billion per year?

What would prove to you the wall is necessary? So far every piece of data put on this thread you've dismissed so since no one is giving you what you want, tell me what it is and I'll go searching.

Quite frankly for me if there is $1 spent on someone here illegally it's too much because we have too many money problems of our own to solve. I rationally know that's not going to happen so if we can cut the influx of illegals in half with a wall then it is worth it, but I suspect it will be similar to what we see around the world with other walls and it will be reduced much more than half.

 

[iatrogenic]

Husker, if you would please define what specific facts and data would absolutely convince you that the wall is necessary then I will go hunting for it. Not generalizations, very specific data. 1,000 illegals a week? 10,000 illegals per week? A billion per year spent on illegals? 10 billion per year?

What would prove to you the wall is necessary? So far every piece of data put on this thread you've dismissed so since no one is giving you what you want, tell me what it is and I'll go searching.

Quite frankly for me if there is $1 spent on someone here illegally it's too much because we have too many money problems of our own to solve. I rationally know that's not going to happen so if we can cut the influx of illegals in half with a wall then it is worth it, but I suspect it will be similar to what we see around the world with other walls and it will be reduced much more than half.

I'll make SH's argument for him.

" I know walls work. I have kind of stated they work in a few posts. It was killing me to state that fact, but I did. What I want is something other Libs also want. Voters. I don't mind spending your money in hopes that we can get illegals to vote for Democrats one day, and we also want to count illegals as citizens to boost our Federal representation in Congress. I am a nice guy and it makes me feel good to help impoverished illegals. I have no idea of the costs such thinking and policies impose on legal citizens, but psychically I feel better. I'm hoping we can all celebrate diversity and live like the great socialist countries we know about from reading history, and illegals can help us get there. To hell with your freedom."

 

[dukesteer]

Too often folks can’t seem to see the forest for the trees. Allow me to take a simplistic approach. Basically common sense.

Are people attempting to enter our southern border illegally? It’s unequivocal. YES

Do walls provide a barrier to entry. Again, unequivocal: YES

We can site statistics until the cows come home, but I prefer to use common sense. Bad people want to enter our country, and bad people want to sell bad stuff to our citizens for profit. Again, the point is irrefutable. And I haven’t even mentioned the terrorist threat...

If extending the wall will add a measure of additional security and stop a percentage of the illegal flow and the drugs, why would anyone oppose it.? The counter arguments are a distraction from the point. Even if one could prove that the illegal flow issue through the southern border is only a small part of the problem — an argument I do not buy, by the way — that doesn’t weaken the case for the wall.

Again, a penny out of every $10 of the budget is all Trump is requesting. That amount times two or more probably disappears out of the budget every year.

Finally, the argument that illegals commit crimes at a lower rate than citizens already here has no relevance. How many crimes would illegals commit in this country if they couldn’t get here? The answer is zero.