Boyer' open letter to Kaepernick

Thanks for your perspective VYFan. I have the same disdain for the prima donnas in sports that you do. This is one factor in my decision to shut off the NBA as it doesn't get any worse than that, IMHO.

These guys that are kneeling are antithesis of what you are believing them to be based on my research. Keep in mind, Kaepernick is not representative of them all and he is a little bit mischaracterized too. Most of the kneelers are the selfless crowd that give often and considerable time to charitable organizations (Kaepernick included). Yes, some have larger than life personalities (i.e. Seattle's Michael Bennett) but don't mistake that for the "self-absorbed, whiny, ungrateful, unthankful prima donnas seeking social media attention".

Okay. That may be. I still start from the perspective that using the anthem as a protest is annoying to me, because it emphasizes non-respect if not more accurately disrespect.

I am acknowledging that if I agreed with the overall premise (isn't it that deliberate white racism, especially in law enforcement, has made the country so bad that its symbols must be disrespected until this is "solved," and implicitly that white people must be told that black lives matter because a) they don't know or believe that, and b) that racism is so rampant in USA that we must push BLM above the more balanced principle that all lives matter?), I would probably be less "offended." So, yes, just like probably all people, my opinion on the BLM message is intertwined in my reaction to anthem protest. Isn't yours?

I guess the prima donna reaction isn't really to these particular guys, or Kaepernick, but from a large number of small cuts. There is a general presumption that all college players on scholarship are being exploited and that even pro players are underpaid compared to the owners or whatever. Somehow, I transitioned from the feeling that star athletes were glad to have me watch and admire them to the idea that they think they are doing me a big favor.
 
I laughed
See the comment

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I laughed too.

Since this wasn't a college that offered the award but rather the ACLU SoCal organization I'd argue that D Martinez doesn't have to worry about what college their children might consider if their reading skills follow their mother/father. There wasn't any "college" referenced in the article.
 
Your answer to this seems to be that you view star athletes as role models / heroes, and you find it harder to look up to them if they espouse positions you disagree with. I can respect that. I don't agree with it, but at least it's rational in a way that much of what I've been hearing is not.

The reason I don't agree with you is that I don't see pro athletes as role models or heroes. Yes, participating in any competitive endeavor can "mold men", but at the pro level, athletes are just entertainers. I'll pay to watch them play if they put a good product on the field or court, but I don't care about their politics or philosophy and I certainly don't look up to them.

That's not quite it. I can admire people with whom I disagree on a very important point or two or more. (Really, I am one of the last ones!)

I agree that sports are entertainment. Still, for me, I can better participate in my suspension of disbelief that a sport "matters" if I see the winners and succeeders talk about how "I got here by hard work and opportunity and teamwork, and if you go after your dreams in the same way, you can succeed, too." I don't really believe DKR when he says that football reveals character any more than, say, engineering, but I can suspend disbelief and imagine that when Texas wins, somehow my value system is validated or whatever. When, instead, the ones in the spotlight and making millions for a ball sport choose to use the soapbox for saying that our culture is unfair and all, it does two things:
1. it brings out some political disagreement, which (only mildly for me) does distance me from that person a bit.
2. it tears down the "4th wall" of the entertainment, and eliminates my suspension of disbelief that I am watching something that matters, and reminds me that these guys are just ball-sport guys who may not have as much sense as the average taxi driver I get into a conversation with. I react the same way in a music concert when they turn on the house lights, stop the concert an raise money for some social cause. I would react the same way if restaurant staff interrupted everyone's meal for a fund-raiser for a cancer victim.
 
The reason I don't agree with you is that I don't see pro athletes as role models or heroes.

For better or worse, they certainly are ... and the NFL uses this stardom ... they use these heros for its own advocacy. Remember the Coke commercial with Mean Joe Green? That epitomized the starstruckedness most of us had back then. Watching an NFL game was a family experience and parents didn't have to be concerned with inappropriate displays (wardrobe malfunctions at 1/2 time ... and the political commentary du jour)

In the contemporary era ... what I'd call heros are being ridiculed. Those players whose behavior was worth my sons' replicating as they admired these guys for their ability on the ball field. They are still there ... mind you ... but they are overshadowed by the transition to being a platform for social justice/awareness ... when they are STILL ... just a game.

I've not been hedged about my viewership/patronage of NFL venue. The league has lost its way and has fostered this kind of off-topic display, never mind the display is based in falsehood ... or at least GROSS exaggeration.

I hope they get it in their thick noggins ... they are there to play a game. PERIOD. Go demonstrate on your own time and with your own dime. You don't represent "Colin Kapernick" when you don that uniform, you represent the team ... and the league.
 
One NFL exec has conceded to his hometown fans that the kneeling caused the drop in attendance. This is from Baltimore Ravens president Dick Cass in is letter to season ticker holders. Was printed in USA today

Regarding the protests:

“We had the poor showing in London, complicated by the kneeling of a dozen players during the national anthem. That became an emotional and divisive issue. We know that hurt some of you. Others saw it differently and welcomed the dialogue that followed. Others bluntly told us to keep statements and protests out of the game. There are some of you who have stayed away from our games.

* * * *

“We have had significant numbers of no-shows in the past when our play on the field has not met the high standard we and you have set for the Ravens. But this year has been different. The numbers are higher, and it is noticeable. There are a number of reasons for the no-shows, but surely the one-time protest in London has been a factor.”
 
I haven’t done a comprehensive scrub of this thread, but I’m pretty certain @Seattle Husker you and @OUBubba have rejected the notion of the “kneelers” having adversely affected the attendance/fan participation ... which is exactly NOT what @Joe Fan ’s post says.

he couches his comment a bit, sure, but he nails the cause; the false narrative and protest against unity ... while representing something other than themselves (their employers)

ya done messed-up AA Ron.
 
I haven’t done a comprehensive scrub of this thread, but I’m pretty certain @Seattle Husker you and @OUBubba have rejected the notion of the “kneelers” having adversely affected the attendance/fan participation ... which is exactly NOT what @Joe Fan ’s post says.

To save you the trouble, I’ve compiled everything @Seattle Husker and @OUBubba have said on the topic in this thread. The TL/DR:
  • The protests are one of several factors contributing to falling NFL ratings.
  • The protests were fading until President Trump stoked the flames.
  • The protests have had little if any impact on cord-cutting.
I think the league has already shown their cards. They are more concerned about disharmony with the players than the fans taking issue with the protest. NFL owners care only about $$$ and they've apparently made their own calculation that forcing the players to stand for the anthem would cost more than weathering the fan defection.

That's part of the problem with the ratings these days. That game was also shown on Amazon Prime or SlingTV. The more traditional Nielsen metrics are very poor at accounting for viewership in these other platforms. Last night wasn't streamed live on Twitter but 10 Thursday night games are. Some have a political motive to make the story much worse than it is but there are many reasons the NFL ratings are dropping of which the anthem saga is only one.

What is funny is the attempt to try to tie everything wrong with the NFL to this singular issue. Why? Because the dog whistle that is our POTUS. I'd argue that Concussions/CTE and the "thug" stories (i.e. Ray Rice) have had as much if not more impact on NFL support as the articles link above point to. Of course, those don't have an easy political angle to grab onto nor support an agenda so like anything that falls into this category are discarded, this time without much attempt to even discredit them. Par for the course though for the alt-right crowd.

Half empty stadiums. Attendance is down slightly but there is also quite a bit of tumult with teams either in temporary digs or planning to move: Chargers, Rams and Raiders.

Since ESPN subscriber loss is a common topic here I thought this might be of interest. Cable cutters are killing the sports networks. It's not just an ESPN phenomena.



This explanation is as good as any.

I've been a Seahawks season ticket holder. Your commitment for next season is made at the end of the current season, generally in March/April from my experience. Are there some people upset at the protest? Absolutely, especially the Pro-Trump crowd who may not have cared last year with the Kaepernick inspired saga then were incited to care now.

ESPN's 15,000/day has NOTHING to do with politics. It has to do with cord cutting. My wife wants to. I'm fighting her off for access to sports. Direct dropped my monthly bill from $105 to $51 when I called them to move my service back in after a house fire due to "loyalty" as I've been with them for 16 months. I did not ask them to cut me by more than 50%. They did it on their own. I thought it odd.

FS1, which doesn't show any NFL games actually had a GREATER subscriber loss than ESPN per my post above. It the ignoring of facts like that that undercut the the argument that is being beat to death that nearly all ESPN subscriber losses and NFL ratings/attendance downturn are a result of the "elephant in the room" of the protests. The data is inconclusive at best that it is an "elephant in the room".

I'll stand by my stance that though the kneeling has had an impact on ratings/attendance (afterall, surely there are a few "snowflakes" that were so upset to turn off/not attend a game) it's NOT the "elephant in the room" impact that some seem so intent on beating everyone into submission with.

OK. So you have stopped watching/gambling the NFL. I've never stated that some haven't stopped watching. Did you stop watching last year when Kaepernick started this or when Trump blew the whistle?

The elephant is about cord cutters. That said, advertisers are rightly concerned. It worked on O'Rielly, Fox, etc.

Facts yo! https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...nt-appear-hurting-nfl-ticket-sales/715151001/

The only people who I know who have said a word about it will now miss one game in February.

I don't know about you but I can't cut just ESPN. It's all or nothing for me.

Who "cuts the cord" to protest ESPN? Yes, there may be some r/t_d consumers that drive all their decisions with a political lens but that's the rare exception when compared the larger cable consumer. Why are people core cutting? We are all getting tired of paying exhorbitant monthly bills for hundreds of channels that we could care less about. My bill (with internet and VOIP) with Comcast was $250/month before I cut it. I couldn't realistically cut it down much. They wanted to charge me for DVR's perpetually rather than letting me purchase the equipment. They wanted to perpetually charge me for a modem rather than buying it outright. I saved $100 per month by upgrading my internet connection (still with Comcast unfortunately) but shifting phone service to T-Mobile ($10/month...local service), Sling and digital tuners.

Trying to attribute any significant portion of cord cutting to politics is ludicrous, just like claiming nearly all ratings and attendance declines are a result of the national anthem protest. The lions share of these changes are the results of consumer behavior changes that have been trending this way for years.

I expect that their ad revenue in the $/ad will drop in the future. Sponsorships will likely go down. That would be attributable to the kneeling. That rubber hasn't met the road yet.

Funniest thing I saw on the twitter was the "who knew that the liberals would get football and the Boy Scouts in the divorce?"

Only after Trump's speech did this blowup with entire teams kneeling down. Before that there was <10 players kneeling.

Wait...you're including raised fists and women's soccer in the list? Nine players kneeled for at least one game and only 4 did so for the course of the season. Adding in the raised fists and you'd double your numbers and even most of those only did so for a limited time.

That's what's laughable about this sordid ordeal. The "protest" was dying out until that 9/22 speech by Trump. Like most things he touches, he's had the opposite effect of what he and his supporters purport to want, players standing for the anthem.

With Kaepernick no longer in the NFL, it was Bennett (and Reid?) as the only people protesting before DJT's speech. Yes, I'm excluding Lynch in that list because he literally has sat on the bench or an exercise bike during the anthem for virtually his entire career.

The kneeling issue was going away until the president needed a distraction to rile up the rubes. 10 players did it the weekend before he spoke of I remember correctly from a Peter Kong column. You guys obliged him in a Pavlovian manner. He really could gun down someone on 5th Avenue and no one would give two poops.

I was editing my post while you are posting. Notice the 1 minute timestamp difference. I didn't know the exact number which is why I updated it to <10. Of course, only the kneelers were considered, not those standing while holding a hand in the air. In hindsight, my <10 was pretty close when looking only at the kneelers.

Only covers Sept. 2016? Have you read the dates/descriptions? From your link:

What I took from that article is that no new plaryers started kneeling after September. Notice in the descriptions it states whether the kneeling was a one game affair or the players remained kneeling all year.

The fact that a number of players stopped kneeling reinforces my position that the protest was petering out until the arsonist chose to use issue for political gain.


I'm telling you a reporter who reports on all games and writes a ten page manifesto every Sunday night/Monday morning about the NFL is probably more knowledgeable than your "what I see at the Cowboy games" version of facts.


Who? 20 pages deep on Google and not a single reference to a Cowboy player protesting prior to 9/22. You're a "Senior Writer" and even you chose to not write it down, apparently.

He's talking about visiting players.

Pre-season:
Cards
Colts
Raiders

Season:
Giants
The rest were on the road or after butt head's speech.

Dude, you missed your chance to write about these spoiled millionaires and get you an ESPN by-line. Looks to me like the Raiders were the only ones who protested.

I'll give JoeFan credit too. I suspect the networks did try to play down the protest with cooperation from the NFL. Still, unless these multiple sites that list which players are protesting are egregiously wrong then the facts still support OUBubba, Peter King and my assertion that the protests were petering off.

Even if frustrated fans had stopped caring as much, so did the players. That's the point.

Papa John's apologized for criticizing the players protesting. http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSt...izes-criticizing-nfl-anthem-protests-51158913

Does this mean that the customers supporting the players are better customers than the snowflakes upset at the protesters? Sales must have plummeted.

national anthem protest is all it is, ShAArk92...all it ever was...

Said no one ever (except maybe JoeFan) just like nobody said what you said. Next strawman...WHHHHHHEEEEEEWWWW! <--- Me blowing that strawman down. :)

Not really, OUBubba and I have pointed out a number of contributing factors at this point and the Pro-Trump side (at least JoeFan) has been beating the drum that only reason is the anthem protest. When you put words in my mouth and claim they are mine, I'll point it out.

Yo, that's nearly word for word what OU Bubba and I have been saying. To quote ShAArk92 "no no.. .that can't be right."
 
To save you the trouble, I’ve compiled everything @Seattle Husker and @OUBubba have said on the topic in this thread. The TL/DR:
  • The protests are one of several factors contributing to falling NFL ratings.
  • The protests were fading until President Trump stoked the flames.
  • The protests have had little if any impact on cord-cutting.
Thanks for saving me the trouble! It's the JoeFan's that have continually tried to attribute all attendance and ratings issues to the anthem protests.
 
Thanks for saving me the trouble! It's the JoeFan's that have continually tried to attribute all attendance and ratings issues to the anthem protests.
I don't think I said that the anthem protests had no impact. There were 10 players doing it before Trump kicked the pile of turds. Then it blew up. Prior to that all cable/satellite related had been dipping due to the cord cutters. Our local dish/direct guy closed up shop a few months ago and went to work installing security systems. When we got fiber optic internet in our rural area everyone dumped it. By your logic, these anthem protests caused him to lose his job. So, they're job killers as well....
 
He's really over compensating, huh?

It's not surprising that Trump overcompensates. Plenty of guys do that. What's surprising is the legions who feel the need to defend Trump's cock size as though they're defending their own.
 
That's the goofy thing about it. Nobody said that, but if you recognize any other factor as meaningful, you're insulting Trump's **** size.

No. Most of the people in here have been arguing what's been the main factor. It's been the protests with everything else a distant second. I'm willing to bet Joe Fan and most of the other posters right of center would agree with this.
 
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IDK why/how I missed this notie ...

Thanks for the work, NJ ... but as can be read, in the effort to refute JoeFan, SeattleHusker has been adamant about minimizing the affect of the kneelers.

If cord cutting were such a big deal, (my) rates wouldn't continue to be increasing, methinks. But hey ... it makes us feel better when we adopt the narrative we're supposed to adopt ...

Like ... label expensive gifts from Mom/Dad rather than Santa, so another kid doesn't feel like Santa doesn't love them for their less expensive gift. SMH! (yeah, creep alert, but I think the point is made nevertheless, unless distraction from a bad argument is sought)
 
IDK why/how I missed this notie ...

Thanks for the work, NJ ... but as can be read, in the effort to refute JoeFan, SeattleHusker has been adamant about minimizing the affect of the kneelers.

If cord cutting were such a big deal, (my) rates wouldn't continue to be increasing, methinks. But hey ... it makes us feel better when we adopt the narrative we're supposed to adopt ...

Like ... label expensive gifts from Mom/Dad rather than Santa, so another kid doesn't feel like Santa doesn't love them for their less expensive gift. SMH! (yeah, creep alert, but I think the point is made nevertheless, unless distraction from a bad argument is sought)
My Direct rate dropped from $108 to $58 this year without me asking. They did it for "loyalty" after 16 months. Prior to that I was with Dish since 2005. That said, it gives me leverage with my wife who's wanting to cut the dish/cord. I want easy access to sports and HBO without having to work at it. She doesn't value access to ESPN/ABC/Fox/CBS as I do for various sports.
 
IDK why/how I missed this notie ...

Thanks for the work, NJ ... but as can be read, in the effort to refute JoeFan, SeattleHusker has been adamant about minimizing the affect of the kneelers.

If cord cutting were such a big deal, (my) rates wouldn't continue to be increasing, methinks. But hey ... it makes us feel better when we adopt the narrative we're supposed to adopt ...

Like ... label expensive gifts from Mom/Dad rather than Santa, so another kid doesn't feel like Santa doesn't love them for their less expensive gift. SMH! (yeah, creep alert, but I think the point is made nevertheless, unless distraction from a bad argument is sought)
The same group of people who don't think cord cutting isn't happening are also oblivious global warming. And that Obama is coming for your guns. And that Hillary ____________. Ironic, huh?
 
The same group of people who don't think cord cutting isn't happening are also oblivious global warming. And that Obama is coming for your guns. And that Hillary ____________. Ironic, huh?

Bubba, you talk a lot of **** for someone who hasn't been right about a damn thing since you've been here. I can't wait until "Russia, Russia, Russia" blows up in your face.
 
Bubba, you talk a lot of **** for someone who hasn't been right about a damn thing since you've been here. I can't wait until "Russia, Russia, Russia" blows up in your face.
So cord cutting is a myth? Is that your stance?
 
Bubba, you talk a lot of **** for someone who hasn't been right about a damn thing since you've been here. I can't wait until "Russia, Russia, Russia" blows up in your face.

They have been wrong about everything. Nobody believes there is global warming. Not even Al Gore, but he's convinced a few here like Bubba that it's real. They made a better argument that the earth was flat. It's actually amusing to watch them try to make a case of it. They even believe Obamacare has been a success when no one in their right mind would try to argue it. It's the worst legislation in American History.

Until Schumer and Pelosi moves away from their talking point these guys on here will continue the fight. They just don't realize their leaders are making fools of them. Pelosi said the tax cute will be Armageddon. Like anybody will listen to what she has to say. The left made claims the stock market will collapse under President Trump. Everything they claim is proven untrue at a later date. They are so predictable and these guys here pretty much worships every statement they make. If you are going to be a believer, then believe someone that's been right most of the time.
 
56.6 million Americans will go without pay TV this year.
but enough about white privilege.

:rolleyes1:

Kudos on getting your DirectTV bill "right sized" ... mine's not. I had DTV for 10 years, never got doodley. Finally just "cut the cord" because the rate was too high and I wasn't getting enough Fox News. :p

DISH was the first satellite to host LHN, so I returned to pay TV. Anyhow ... it's nuts.

But this thread is about the effect of kneelers on the NFL ... and there's no doubt it's hurt the sport. Cord cutters don't account for lack of audience ... just that they're not pigeon holed with a specific subscription service. If they just went to YouTube TV or something, sling ... that'd be trackable ... yes? It's not like you're having to return to the Nielsen estimated ratings of viewership.

But y'all like to talk out of both sides of yer pie hole ... so this doesn't surprise me.
 

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