Eagles Requesting Campus Changes

[Htown77]

why it's important for people to feel heard, and what we all could learn about it.

Unless you have confederate ancestor or any american ancestor honored in any war before 1900. Then you should not be heard.

My opinion is rather than silence voices, we should incorporate more voices. Leave the confederate statues, but put new statues of historical heroes for other groups. If we are all equal and value diversity, let everyone be represented. Not everyone has to agree with everyone's heroes, but that's okay in a melting pot. Just give every group equal or proportional representation in the public forum for their ancestors/heroes that contributed to America.

However, this is not about hearing other voices. It is about silencing one group of voices in favor of another. The African American voices were wrongly silenced for a long time in this country.

From 1970 something to 2000 something, we tried to have a period where everyone was represented and their voices heard.

However in the 2010s and now 2020, it has become "the only way to hear african american voices is to silence dissenting voices or demand all voices agree." What happened to Drew Brees was absurd and ridiculous.

In the year 2020, the pro name, flag, statue group is not for denying anyone's voice. We just want to keep our voice. It's the other group trying to silence and calling such silencing "hearing our voices".

Want a slave monument? Build slave monument. Want a Malcolm X Lounge? Have a Malcolm X Lounge. However, my ancestor's monuments do not need to be taken down to accomplish that.

Also, do not give me "well I do not like that statue". Guess what? There's plenty of public art, statues, sculptures, etc that I do not care for. If we are all equal, no one's feelings are anymore or less valid than mine. However, I get someone else cares for it and it is not physically or economically bothering anything but my feelings, so why should I demand it go?

 

[MajesticII]

just thinking of stuff as Covid has us kinda locked down...
Thought of this the other day when wondering about being black and walking in a black man's shoes when thinking about the " You don't know what it is like being a black man" rhetoric ....
On the topic of slavery....Which would you prefer as a black person in the year 2020....
1) Your ancestors were slaves here in the USA on a plantation where many years later you are born and grow up in this country of opportunity that allows you to do what you want and are willing to work for, and maybe make millions as an actor, athlete, etc, etc...
2) Your ancestors were slaves to a Zulu tribe and never left Africa..Yo uare born there and never left......Now you are in some ******** in Samolia or somewhere....
3) You are Zulu, etc.. and didn't have to worry about being a slave, but never left Africa, and you are still in a ******** country there.

Naturally it sucked for the slaves...but not so much for you in 2020...

Which would you choose #1, #2, or #3 ????

 

[MajesticII]

Unless you have confederate ancestor or any american ancestor honored in any before before 1900. Then you should not be heard.

My opinion is rather than silence voices, we should incorporate more voices. Leave the confederate statues, but put new statues of historical heroes for other groups. If we are all equal and value diversity, let everyone be represented. Not everyone has to agree with everyone's heroes, but that's okay in a melting pot. Just give every group equal or proportional representation in the public forum for their ancestors/heroes that contributed to America.

However, this is not about hearing other voices. It is about silencing one group of voices in favor of another. The African American voices were wrongly silenced for a long time in this country.

From 1970 something to 2000 something, we tried to have a period where everyone was represented and their voices heard.

However in the 2010s and now 2020, it has become "the only way to hear african american voices is to silence dissenting voices or demand all voices agree." What happened to Drew Brees was absurd and ridiculous.

In the year 2020, the pro name, flag, statue group is not for denying anyone's voice. We just want to keep our voice. It's the other group trying to silence and calling such silencing "hearing our voices".

Want a slave monument? Build slave monument. Want a Malcolm X Lounge? Have a Malcolm X Lounge. However, my ancestor's monuments do not need to be taken down to accomplish that.

Also, do not give me "well I do not like that statue". Guess what? There's plenty of public art, statues, sculptures, etc that I do not care for. If we are all equal, no one's feelings are anymore or less valid than mine. However, I get someone else cares for it and it is not physically or economically bothering anything but my feelings, so why should I demand it go?

AGREE.....You want statues of color ? Add statues....You want black people's names on buildings ? ..Have rich blacks open the checkbook like the white guys did. Want more blacks in the hall of honor ? Play better and earn a spot there. Unfortunately its the same old same old....Something for nothing... Give give give cause my ancestors were oppressed ... Mine were too, but I didn't get crap !!!! I worked for what I got.

 

[OrangeShogun]

Man, it's all-or-nothing, huh? If you've ever competed in policy debate, my guess is that all of your arguments ended with nuclear annihilation.

I don't think the "whatever they demand" is necessarily the point. Indeed, one of the demands seems to be "don't kill unarmed people, even if they resist arrest" and that one isn't universally agreed upon by people on this board, which is strange.

But the rest of your post is very "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Do you believe that the football team will just have a RACISM IS OVER parade if buildings on campus are renamed? The term "expunge" is particularly useful here for your argument, with the common definition being "to completely remove." It's not going to approach the "expungement" that you seek the other side to hold as a burden, so it's convenient for you. This is why I mentioned that beyond the law, there has been a neglect of what has been negatively deemed as "feelings" on this board, which is so much more than that.

The fact that you even typed "moaning" about systemic racism shows you don't hold it to be true, so there is no aim that could possibly appease you. So instead of focusing on the legality of discrimination, which was eliminated by LAW a long time ago, maybe focus on the empathy of understanding why the athletes brought this list to our attention, and why it's important for people to feel heard, and what we all could learn about it. If you aren't satisfied with their "whines," then you're just not going to be part of the audience.

Do you consider the strides made in civil rights equality over this country's history to be nothing? I certainly do not. No matter the concession, it will never be enough. There will always be someone, somewhere pissing and moaning about inequality, or at least their perception thereof.

 

[2003TexasGrad]

Man, it's all-or-nothing, huh? If you've ever competed in policy debate, my guess is that all of your arguments ended with nuclear annihilation.

I don't think the "whatever they demand" is necessarily the point. Indeed, one of the demands seems to be "don't kill unarmed people, even if they resist arrest" and that one isn't universally agreed upon by people on this board, which is strange.

But the rest of your post is very "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Do you believe that the football team will just have a RACISM IS OVER parade if buildings on campus are renamed? The term "expunge" is particularly useful here for your argument, with the common definition being "to completely remove." It's not going to approach the "expungement" that you seek the other side to hold as a burden, so it's convenient for you. This is why I mentioned that beyond the law, there has been a neglect of what has been negatively deemed as "feelings" on this board, which is so much more than that.

The fact that you even typed "moaning" about systemic racism shows you don't hold it to be true, so there is no aim that could possibly appease you. So instead of focusing on the legality of discrimination, which was eliminated by LAW a long time ago, maybe focus on the empathy of understanding why the athletes brought this list to our attention, and why it's important for people to feel heard, and what we all could learn about it. If you aren't satisfied with their "whines," then you're just not going to be part of the audience.

What system or institution is racist? I want to know which company, university, non profit or government, tax payer funded entity is systemically racist. Again, last I checked its 100% against the law and has been for over 50 years.

Who is verifiably institutionally or systemically racist?

 

[Horns11]

Unless you have confederate ancestor or any american ancestor honored in any before before 1900. Then you should not be heard.

My opinion is rather than silence voices, we should incorporate more voices. Leave the confederate statues, but put new statues of historical heroes for other groups. If we are all equal and value diversity, let everyone be represented. Not everyone has to agree with everyone's heroes, but that's okay in a melting pot. Just give every group equal or proportional representation in the public forum for their ancestors/heroes that contributed to America.

However, this is not about hearing other voices. It is about silencing one group of voices in favor of another. The African American voices were wrongly silenced for a long time in this country.

From 1970 something to 2000 something, we tried to have a period where everyone was represented and their voices heard.

However in the 2010s and now 2020, it has become "the only way to hear african american voices is to silence dissenting voices or demand all voices agree." What happened to Drew Brees was absurd and ridiculous.

In the year 2020, the pro name, flag, statue group is not for denying anyone's voice. We just want to keep our voice. It's the other group trying to silence and calling such silencing "hearing our voices".

Want a slave monument? Build slave monument. Want a Malcolm X Lounge? Have a Malcolm X Lounge. However, my ancestor's monuments do not need to be taken down to accomplish that.

Also, do not give me "well I do not like that statue". Guess what? There's plenty of public art, statues, sculptures, etc that I do not care for. If we are all equal, no one's feelings are anymore or less valid than mine. However, I get someone else cares for it and it is not physically or economically bothering anything but my feelings, so why should I demand it go?

Then we have a fundamental disagreement about the purpose of statues. If you honestly believe they're just "public art" and don't have meaning beyond that, then go ahead and create a campus walking tour where all the historical references are removed and put "Artist - medium" on a placard for each. People can discuss why bronze wasn't the best choice for Y and the pedestal for Z was too bulky.

"It's my type of hero" could be used to rationalize any example of public memory being memorialized. Other nations struggle with this too, as it's not a uniquely American problem. But in those other nations (like Italy), the "fringe" element is typically the one calling for Mussolini's patronage to stay up, not the average citizen.

Do you consider the strides made in civil rights equality over this country's history to be nothing? I certainly do not. No matter the concession, it will never be enough. There will always be someone, somewhere pissing and moaning about inequality, or at least their perception thereof.

Again with the all-or-nothing. Seriously, were you a CX'er? These concessions aren't as difficult as you're making them out to be. There's no cash prize for withholding an admission that racism exists.

Of course we've made strides in civil rights. The fact that you're still using language like "their perception thereof" shows how little you're going to budge, and that's fine.

What system or institution is racist? I want to know which company, university, non profit or government, tax payer funded entity is systemically racist. Again, last I checked its 100% against the law and has been for over 50 years.

Who is verifiably institutionally or systemically racist?

You're squirreling between "it's not LEGAL to do it" without an admission that IT exists.

There have been multimillion dollar lawsuits regarding housing, loans, and redlining, many of which are still going through the courts today. Redlining didn't just vanish when the FHA was signed.

Mandatory minimums and other sentencing guidelines were explicitly aimed at minorities, and if you don't believe me, ask the former head of the RNC when you get to the afterlife. Brain cancer was too easy a punishment for that dude.

Hiring practices: read about the Vulcan Society and other attempts by things like police/fire to not hire minorities with the requisite skills. Again, just because it's illegal to do so doesn't mean they don't get away with it.

Standardized testing: I could dig up some NEA articles about it or whatever, but the entire idea of an aptitude test was to find a correlation between ethnic origin and intelligence so that it would be easier to comb through skills assessments for the military, and it was then adapted by Harvard to use for admissions. Tons of work has been done to make sure tests are better indicators, and many colleges are abandoning the SAT altogether.

If your next post is that you want me to go file charges or write petitions for any of these examples, instead of complaining about it on Hornfans, then thanks for your time. Actions are taken related to antiracism movements every day. Calling "it" illegal without recognition of "its" existence is the same as filing it under "not my problem."

 

[mchammer]

 

[mchammer]

 

[UTexRulz23]

Man, it's all-or-nothing, huh? If you've ever competed in policy debate, my guess is that all of your arguments ended with nuclear annihilation.

Good times. Where’d you debate?

 

[19NomadicRekraps]

My two cents: Paying players would be an effective remedy for demands like these, particularly if they become a trend with other large programs (i.e. transform college football to a professional farm league for the NFL)? If players are employed by the university to play football under a system where attending classes is not required, challenging building nomenclature, campus culture, fight songs, and things of this sort would likely not be high on their priority lists or could actually be prohibited under the terms of their contracts. At minimum, the schools would have a bit more leverage to say “no” right away since the players would be paid employees. Again, just my two cents.

 

[Horns11]

Good times. Where’d you debate?

My comments about policy debate were in jest because I definitely wasn't a policy guy. I did LD (back when they still called it "learning disabled") and the prepared speaking events around DFW, but never the national circuit because I was too involved in church/choir/theatre and the other stuff. Didn't even try to do it in college. I still judge in the DFW area and will do it online for NSDA Nationals this week, but I'm staying out of the CX pool for sure. LD is basically "1v1 policy" now anyhow, so I can get my kicks from that instead.

 

[UTexRulz23]

My comments about policy debate were in jest because I definitely wasn't a policy guy. I did LD (back when they still called it "learning disabled") and the prepared speaking events around DFW, but never the national circuit because I was too involved in church/choir/theatre and the other stuff. Didn't even try to do it in college. I still judge in the DFW area and will do it online for NSDA Nationals this week, but I'm staying out of the CX pool for sure. LD is basically "1v1 policy" now anyhow, so I can get my kicks from that instead.

Nice. I competed in HS and coach a team. Will be “there” this week too. I’m involved in speech tab though so will miss out judging debate.

 

[2003TexasGrad]

You're squirreling between "it's not LEGAL to do it" without an admission that IT exists.

There have been multimillion dollar lawsuits regarding housing, loans, and redlining, many of which are still going through the courts today. Redlining didn't just vanish when the FHA was signed.

Mandatory minimums and other sentencing guidelines were explicitly aimed at minorities, and if you don't believe me, ask the former head of the RNC when you get to the afterlife. Brain cancer was too easy a punishment for that dude.

Hiring practices: read about the Vulcan Society and other attempts by things like police/fire to not hire minorities with the requisite skills. Again, just because it's illegal to do so doesn't mean they don't get away with it.

Standardized testing: I could dig up some NEA articles about it or whatever, but the entire idea of an aptitude test was to find a correlation between ethnic origin and intelligence so that it would be easier to comb through skills assessments for the military, and it was then adapted by Harvard to use for admissions. Tons of work has been done to make sure tests are better indicators, and many colleges are abandoning the SAT altogether.

If your next post is that you want me to go file charges or write petitions for any of these examples, instead of complaining about it on Hornfans, then thanks for your time. Actions are taken related to antiracism movements every day. Calling "it" illegal without recognition of "its" existence is the same as filing it under "not my problem."

The whole point is that despite attempts by individuals or perhaps syndicates or cartels to do an end around of the law, there is no legal entity in this country allowed to discriminate based on race or color. There are no policies and procedures, code of ethics or business regulations that encourage or promote discrimination in the hiring or promotion of employees.

Everyone agrees that racism exists but the narrative that its institutional and systemic is bunk. Weve made that completely illegal! You are 100% right that when these people try to skirt the law, they get charged and litigated, as they should.

So at the end of the day the vast majority of people are doing the right thing. But those pushing "leftist" narratives can't acknowledge that. Its all doom and gloom, and that is utter nonsense.

 

[OrangeShogun]

Again with the all-or-nothing. Seriously, were you a CX'er? These concessions aren't as difficult as you're making them out to be. There's no cash prize for withholding an admission that racism exists.

Of course we've made strides in civil rights. The fact that you're still using language like "their perception thereof" shows how little you're going to budge, and that's fine.

Who the heck ever said racism doesn't exist? Of course it exists and probably will, to some degree, as long as the human race exists. Is it the rampant, systemic oppression of black Americans that you describe? Not even close.
In regard to the player demanded concessions, whether difficult or easy, because they have been made via an extortion attempt, they should be summarily dismissed, as should the players making them.
BTW, I know little to nothing of competitive debate. Where I'm from, that was for nerds.

 

[4th_floor]

My daughter was in the top 10% at Cy Creek years ago and worked her *** off. She tried to get in at UT but NOPE! Went to UH, later got a Masters at Washington U in St Louis and has just been accepted at Tulane in their Doctorate program. Her white privilege will cost approx 250k for education. I like the fact that she did not ask dad to help out on the Tulane expenses.

Congrats on your daughter's achievements.

 

[4th_floor]

“Your first loss is your least loss” - old banker’s saying.

Time to cut bait and move on, including the guy holding the pole.

The way this has been handled is beyond embarrassing and that falls on Tim Herman. I have made my choice for the next HC.

I think Tom Herman is done. His brother Tim is likely done as well.

 

[2003TexasGrad]

I've been wondering when we would see the BLM demonstrations in Beijing and Shanghai. Anyone have any updates from the "peoples" Republic?

 

[EDT]

Congrats on your daughter's achievements.

4th floor, thank you so much for your kind words. My daughter works at TX Childrens Hosptital in Houston as a Social Worker. She is in the ER most of the time seeing covid, child abuse, human trafficing victims, you name it. YEP! I am a very proud dad and UT missed out on getting a great young lady as one of their own.

 

[AustinHorn24]

just thinking of stuff as Covid has us kinda locked down...
Thought of this the other day when wondering about being black and walking in a black man's shoes when thinking about the " You don't know what it is like being a black man" rhetoric ....
On the topic of slavery....Which would you prefer as a black person in the year 2020....
1) Your ancestors were slaves here in the USA on a plantation where many years later you are born and grow up in this country of opportunity that allows you to do what you want and are willing to work for, and maybe make millions as an actor, athlete, etc, etc...
2) Your ancestors were slaves to a Zulu tribe and never left Africa..Yo uare born there and never left......Now you are in some ******** in Samolia or somewhere....
3) You are Zulu, etc.. and didn't have to worry about being a slave, but never left Africa, and you are still in a ******** country there.

Naturally it sucked for the slaves...but not so much for you in 2020...

Which would you choose #1, #2, or #3 ????

I'm going to reject your ******** premise. Under your ridiculous logic, Rodney King should have praised the police who beat him, because they could have shot him instead, am I right?

 

[AustinHorn24]

Who the heck ever said racism doesn't exist? Of course it exists and probably will, to some degree, as long as the human race exists. Is it the rampant, systemic oppression of black Americans that you describe? Not even close.

It's easy for you to sick back cavalierly and say that. But what if it was your MOTHER who was stopped for no good reason. Even if it only happened once? Would you really look at it and say "hell it was just one time so it wasn't that bad"

Of course not.

This is yet further evidence that you dont have any black people you are close with. Because even if it's not rampant, it's still harmful and something you'd want to fix.

 

[2003TexasGrad]

It's easy for you to sick back cavalierly and say that. But what if it was your MOTHER who was stopped for no good reason. Even if it only happened once? Would you really look at it and say "hell it was just one time so it wasn't that bad"

Of course not.

This is yet further evidence that you dont have any black people you are close with. Because even if it's not rampant, it's still harmful and something you'd want to fix.

Geez. Everyone agrees that racism is wrong and that police brutality is wrong. Everyone.

Of course if my mother were killed by an officer unnecessarily I'd be pissed and want justice.

However I'm not going to burn down the local Wendy's and then claim that police systemically hate people who look like me...

I'm sure you hate anything on Fox News, but put your ego aside for one hour and find tonight's Mark Levin episode with Dr Carol Swain and in particular Dr. Wilfred Reilly. Both Black. Reilly gives some very pertinent information and statistics.

 

[Htown77]

Then we have a fundamental disagreement about the purpose of statues.

They were put up for the same reason that the american revolution and union civil war memorials were put up during the same time period). To honor veterans and american history.

Sons of Union Veterans: Founded 1881
Sons of the American Revolution: Founded 1889
Daughters of the American Revolution: Founded 1890
Daughters of the Republic of Texas: Founded 1891
United Daughters of the Confederacy: Founded 1894
Sons of Confederate Veterans: Founded 1896

From 1880-1920 these organizations built most war memorials and other monuments in this country, including the confederate monuments. For example, in 1914, America began building The Lincoln Memorial following the campaign to build which began in 1901. Construction of the Grant Memorial began in 1902. America in this era wanted to build monuments and memorials. It was quite the opposite of the nation we are today.

Of course you probably subscribe to the close minded theory that confederate monuments were built for racism or revisionism which one could only believe if they ignored all the facts and the nationwide monument building movement that occurred in this era for historical american wars.

You're squirreling between "it's not LEGAL to do it" without an admission that IT exists.

There have been multimillion dollar lawsuits regarding housing, loans, and redlining, many of which are still going through the courts today. Redlining didn't just vanish when the FHA was signed.

Mandatory minimums and other sentencing guidelines were explicitly aimed at minorities, and if you don't believe me, ask the former head of the RNC when you get to the afterlife. Brain cancer was too easy a punishment for that dude.

Hiring practices: read about the Vulcan Society and other attempts by things like police/fire to not hire minorities with the requisite skills. Again, just because it's illegal to do so doesn't mean they don't get away with it.

Standardized testing: I could dig up some NEA articles about it or whatever, but the entire idea of an aptitude test was to find a correlation between ethnic origin and intelligence so that it would be easier to comb through skills assessments for the military, and it was then adapted by Harvard to use for admissions. Tons of work has been done to make sure tests are better indicators, and many colleges are abandoning the SAT altogether.

If your next post is that you want me to go file charges or write petitions for any of these examples, instead of complaining about it on Hornfans, then thanks for your time. Actions are taken related to antiracism movements every day. Calling "it" illegal without recognition of "its" existence is the same as filing it under "not my problem."

The best way to solve these problems is remove statues, flags, and schools songs I suppose?

 

[2003TexasGrad]

I couldnt have said this any better. This guy gets it.

 

[Chinstrap]

I couldnt have said this any better. This guy gets it.

Yep. Well said. A must see for everyone!!!!
But the race baiters, including some on this board, will discount this. White blame makes guilty (for no valid reason) whites feel good about themselves, makes a lot of money for the Black race baiter national activists and offers false promise to those Blacks getting played (including some football players who are near and dear to our hearts) by these race baiters.

Backlash is coming. Racism exist everywhere. Ask the NY Irish of the 19th and early 20th century. You only end it by changing the hearts. Millions of hearts have been changed in this country in my lifetime. Millions of hearts have been put on hold because of race baiters. Some are being reversed. So sad after all of the wonderful gains.

 

[SlothHorn]

4th floor, thank you so much for your kind words. My daughter works at TX Childrens Hosptital in Houston as a Social Worker. She is in the ER most of the time seeing covid, child abuse, human trafficing victims, you name it. YEP! I am a very proud dad and UT missed out on getting a great young lady as one of their own.

Props to your daughter as well. I thought about switching to social work while attending UT; however, I realized I didn't want a job that I'd take home with me. Ironically, I'm now a teacher.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

Glad these athletes have found their own power. I happen to be a white guy, but I also understand that one's own perception and background mean a lot, and we all should respect that.

I can absolutely see where the known origins of the Eyes of Texas could offend UT African American players. And the fact is, it does offend--I don't think all of these athletes are making that up. Both of my great uncles were shipped to France during WWII to fight the Nazis, and they both risked their lives to do that. I would not want to be forced to, say, sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime...

I'm guessing, but probably 2/3's of the fine athletes we all watch on Saturdays are African American. They lay their bodies and futures on the line to play for UT. We want all of the athletes to feel good at the University of Texas, and to recruit their friends to play for us too. No UT graduate should be afraid of some free speech.

 

[mchammer]

 

[bystander]

I would not want to be forced to, say, sing Nazi drinking songs at halftime

False equivalency. This is a problem. The Eyes of Texas = Nazi's singing songs.

No UT graduate should be afraid of some free speech.

I have to laugh. You completely ignore the "OR ELSE" component. It's not a free speech issue. It's a demand with severe repercussions.

Your comment appears to be an exercise in virtue signaling with distortions that render the post useless.

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

Yes, but not in the way you think. Caving in to extortion demands will most certainly result in more extortion.

Dude, "extortion demands" is a little melodramatic, don't you think? I don't see any crimes being committed. This looks a little more like "collective bargaining" to me. Athletes are free to play or not play. Fans like to watch them play. Sounds like a good opportunity for dialogue... I really can't see anything that scary here...

 

[UTLAWMBA1991]

False equivalency. This is a problem. The Eyes of Texas = Nazi's singing songs.



I have to laugh. You completely ignore the "OR ELSE" component. It's not a free speech issue. It's a demand with severe repercussions.

Your comment appears to be an exercise in virtue signaling with distortions that render the post useless.

Come on guy. Of course it's a free speech issue. "or else I don't play organized competitive GAMES? Or else I don't invite my friends to play these games with me???" That's really not that serious an issue. "Demand with severe repercussions...?" Sports are competitive, fun games... Injuries are possible, yes, but playing sports is not really such a serious life or death matter...