Switching Religions, like switching toothpastes

haha, Netslave you love quoting scripture...and I also saw you mention that the best book we have on hand to deal with questions of morality is the bible.

You mean these gems?

God's counsel to parents:
whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod (Proverbs 13:24,20:30, and 23:13-14).

If they are shameless enough to talk back to us, we should kill them (Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark 7:9-13, and Matthew 15:4-7).

We must also stone people to death for heresy, adultery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath, worshiping graven images, practicing sorcery, and a wide variety of other imaginary crimes.

If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as yourown soul, entices you secretly, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,"... you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.... If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell there, that certain base fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of the city, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods" which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently; and behold, if it be true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword.
----DEUTERONOMY 13:6, 8-15

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall he called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
---MATTHEW 5:18-19

God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you ... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might...
---2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-9

If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
---JOHN 15:6

Consult the Bible, and you will discover that the creator of the universe clearly expects us to keep slaves:

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are round about you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you, to inherit as a possession forever; you may make slaves of them, but over your brethren the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another, with harshness.
—leviticus 25:44—46

The Bible also makes it clear that every man is free to sell his daughter into sexual slavery— though certain niceties apply:

When a man setts his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt faithlessly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
—exodus 21:7-11
 
Many Christians believe that Jesus did away with all this barbarism in the clearest terms imaginable and delivered a doctrine of pure love and toleration. He didn't. In fact, at several points in the New Testament, Jesus can be read to endorse the entirety of Old Testament law.

For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall he called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
---MATTHEW 5:18-19

The apostles regularly echo this theme (for example, see 2 Timothy 3:16-17).
 
please let's not (on either side) take this mostly good discussion and start selectively quoting scripture to suit our points.
 
Ryan, if you want to get into a scripture by scripture discussion, I'd be more than happy to. But I'd encourage you to read more than what you get from atheistperspective.com or wherever you get them.

I'll respond to the scriptures above later, but let me say one thing first. You write these like they contradict the Law or Christianity but they still hold as much truth as they always have. Whether it was by others with stones, or by God's final judgment, the truth is still that "the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23). But we've all "sinned and fall short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Meaning we all deserve death.

Yet, Romans 5:8 tells us that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Taking on the punishment of death rather than us paying for our own sins for those who believe (Romans 10:9)

The old law is still in effect, but fulfilled through Christ (Matthew 5:17)
 
I wonder how many Christians have read the whole Bible and not just the parts their Sunday school teacher read to them. Good selections Ryan, I'm eager to hear how Christians spin those today.
 
1st why not -- because I can't type fast enough for all I have to say

2nd why not -- because anyone who sincerely does that will hear from God, IMO
 
Ryan, are you ready for the ‘spin’ that HornsInTheHouse is so eager for? Where here it is!Proverbs 13:24,20:30, and 23:13-14So you’re never going to punish your children? If you’re one who thinks spanking a kid is immoral, than that’s your prerogative but you’ll end up punishing your child for ‘getting out of line’ at some point.Exodus 21:15, Leviticus 20:9, Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Mark 7:9-13, and Matthew 15:4-7

You don’t recognize the sovereignty of God so it is difficult to understand these rules and regulations. First off, there are only two passages in here that deal with ‘talking back’ but cursing is a more severe action than purely talking back. Exodus 21:15 clearly implies physical attack. Jesus in Mark and Matthew not only quotes Leviticus 20:9 but also speaks to the hypocrisy of the Pharisees when they don’t recognize that Man was not made for the Law, but Law for the Man. They were too caught up in the specifics (as you are) to see that if they would just merely follow the first commandment “You shall have no other gods before me”, then all of the law would naturally be followed.
Most of the OT law was set forth to set the people of Israel apart from the rest of the nations. They were God’s chosen people. The pagan beliefs of the nations around them would bring the Israelites to sin so they must be set apart. Different. If you don’t recognize the sovereignty of God, then you won’t be able to see what He was accomplishing with them. Also, as I mentioned before, Jesus fulfilled the Law. All of these things you post are fulfilled within what Christ did for us. We don’t have to stone our children or neighbors. If they don’t accept Christ for who he is, they will be judged for it. That doesn’t mean that we still shouldn’t discipline our children.

DEUTERONOMY 13:6, 8-15

Again, the hand of judgment is taken away from man with Jesus.

MATTHEW 5:18-19

This passage reads much clearer when you actually read it in context. Try reading the whole chapter and see how ‘violent’ Jesus wants us to be to each other.

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-9

This is pretty self explanatory. Non-believers will be punished. I’m sorry that you reject the existence of God but why should He allow you into His Heaven if you continuously rejected Him on Earth? He’s giving you as many chances as you have breaths to breathe. Your destiny is in your own hands.

JOHN 15:6

That’s a good chapter to read as well. Give it a try. Again, I think this verse speaks for itself. I have no disagreements with it.

Leviticus 25:44—46

Well, I see no claim that the Creator of the Universe is ‘expecting’ us to own slaves. But let me ask you this, what’s the difference between a slave and an indentured servant? A lot of what is read as ‘slaves’ in the Bible could be considered an indentured servant. This is not however. No matter what our current views of slavery are (there are numerous New Testament scriptures that require Masters to treat their slaves with respect, Colossians 4:1 for instance) just because slavery is part of a culture, does that make it evil? And if it does make it evil, doesn’t that go against your idea that morality is something that we just came up with on our own? I’d challenge you to go back and count all the cultures that either had ‘forced labor’ or slavery throughout history. Slavery has always been a way of life on Earth for millions and millions of people. I don’t believe it is right. That’s how we were raised. But if this issue is the only issue separating you from God, then I’d reconsider what is holding you back.


exodus 21:7-11

Again, cultural differences. Just because you put the term ‘certain niceties’ in your response to it doesn’t mean that anything lewd was taking place. Were you ever pleased or displeased with the service you received in a store? Does this mean that you were having sex with the store clerk? Stop inserting your own personal commentary and take the time to read the Bible, not just excerpts; maybe you’ll see the bigger picture.

Trust me, I understand that you still won’t believe. I could explain every verse in the Bible to you and you’d still find a way to not believe. I do find it interesting though, that God’s Word still finds a way to be spread, even through an Atheist like you. I find it interesting that if God doesn’t exist, why there’s so much discussion and debate. We’re an enlightened society. We know more than we’ve ever known yet the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and myself is still being debated just as Paul debated with the people of Athens.

Why hasn’t our God disappeared from human belief systems? Why haven’t we replaced Him with something else yet? I think the Jews (God’s chosen people whom He had just rescued from slavery in Egypt) demonstrated perfectly our willingness to replace God at a moment’s notice with something else, something Man-made (Exodus 32) but yet here God still is. He’s lasted the test of time. Radio stations play His praise. People on internet message boards bring up discussions about Him. Millions of lives are still changed for the better because of Him. It’s amazing that a non-existent God can do all of this!

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