Switching Religions, like switching toothpastes

The court analogy, while fun, has no merit here because in a court we are trying to find out who did something WRONG....and that's the reason the burden of proof is setup the way it is.

In a criminal case, the prosecution must prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" because we value liberty and innocence and make it a tough hurdle to jump. Basically if we're going to put someone in jail we had better be pretty damn sure.

In a civil case, the plaintiff must only prove that he's correct by a preponderance of the evidence....so basically that it's just more likely than not that his assertion is correct.

Now, sure, you could say that this is like a civil case. Well, if it was, and Ryan sued you for your belief in God....guess what....you've lost. If all we have to go on are the "facts", then the idea that God does not exist wins on a preponderance test. It's really not even close.

It seems that you'd rather use a reasonable doubt test, but that really has no basis in this kind of disagreement.
 
JohnnyM,

I agree with everything you've said. My point is this...

Ryan starts these threads because he's tired of us believing this 'nonsense' and he wants us to change the way that we think. He requires that we provide proof of God's existence but we've already established that I, nor any other believer, can convince him, nor any other non-believer, that God exists.

If you want to say that it's enough evidence to prove him right, then fine, but his reason for starting this thread is still to change our minds, which we're not going to. Thus, if he wants to change our minds, he must present evidence to bolster his case rather than requiring us to do something that we've admitted we cannot do. Otherwise, he's just wasting his time.
 
Ok then let's go to the topic of changing your mind, or anyone changing their minds...

Are you afraid to admit that perhaps you're wrong? It doesn't sound all that intellectually honest to say "here's what I believe, I have all the proof I need and I believe it and I will NEVER change my mind."

I freely admit that I am agnostic leaning hard towards atheism, but I'm always up for new evidence showing me something else.

You have hammered home the idea that science is not perfect and is learning new things all the time....could the same not be said for religion? Could perhaps our understanding of god not change drastically over a few hundred years as you suggest our understanding of things like gravity could? Is that not what has happened throughout the ENTIRE course of human history? Why do you think that YOU have it right here in 2008?

Is the religious person who is unwilling to acknowledge the fact that he may be wrong any better than the scientist who is unwilling to acknowledge the fact that science doesn't have all the answers?
 
The funny thing is that I understand you Netslave, but I just can't believe you.
I honestly can't believe that you are so closed to the possibility of being wrong, but yet feel you are so open to it and right.

All you have to do is look at the fact that there are multiple other books on offering that profess to believe the same thing as adamantly as you do, but about a completely different god.

There is a guy typing on a keyboard right now who believes that "their god" is the right one as secularly as you do...someone has to be wrong, just the same as there is either a god or not a god.
The argument I am making is that one of you is wrong but also both of you are wrong.
 
Ha, that's just perfect. You can attack scientists for believing in the things they test, saying that science has always changed throughout the years and maybe they don't know everything.

But when it comes to you believing something that is completely untestable, even though the idea of god has changed constantly throughout the course of human history, when it comes to that....YOU are above the questioning.

Fan-*******-tastic. See ya.

At least you finally owned up to it.

Ryan, shut out the lights when you leave.
 
You're right, it did haha. I don't know why I continue to discuss things with religious believers. They want to teardown scientific beliefs while saying they are above the fray because it's "just what I believe." Debating a topic with someone who is unwilling to admit that they may not be 100% correct is ridiculous.

It reminds me of something that Rick LaRose, the Arizona golf coach, says to his players.... "it's like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer....feels pretty good when you stop!"
 
Johhny,

I've been thinking about your analogy of the duck on the roof. I think a more apt analogy would be

Is there radon gas in my basement?

Just because you can't see it/smell it, doesn't mean it's not there. With the proper testing equipment, you can identify it.

God is there, and we all have the "equipment" necessary to detect him. Some of us refuse to use that equipment, others have simply never tried. As anastasis alluded above, we are hard wired for spirituality.

I would challenge you and Ryan to try a simple experiment: every day for a month or so, take five minutes to relax in a quiet place, and simply say, "god, I don't believe you are there, but if you are, speak to me in ways I can understand, and show me you exist."

If at the end of the month, nothing has happened to change your mind, you're out nothing. On the other hand, what you find out could change your life.
 
I do agree with Johnny...I know this will sound demeaning but I believe that religion and this idea that there is something watching over you is a crutch for weak minded individuals.

Regardless of if it brings you hope to believe that there is something watching you and there is an after life does not make it true.

Let me ask you this, what is your idea of what the "soul" is?
 
it's my belief that religion is a crutch used to control people. i am truly sorry if you take that as a jab.
 
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