Rebel Flag Reverence

[NJlonghorn]

As a Jewish person, do you support not displaying the Jewish flag so as not to offend Palestinians?

Interesting question, but not really analogous. The Middle East is sooo ****** up that it is hard to compare anything in our lives to theirs.

While there are some who feel differently, I think most of us can agree that whites and blacks in the U.S. aren't enemies. Sometimes we struggle to coexist in peace, but we care what the other thinks and we want to do what is right for each other.

In contrast, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs don't pretend to get along. They are at war with each other, and don't really have much reason to care what the other thinks. If I were an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian Arab took offense to my flag, I'd be unconcerned. Similarly, if I were Palestinian Arab and an Israeli Jew took offense to my flag, I wouldn't care.

A closer analogy would be in a post-peace Israel, where Jews and Palestinians are trying to get along together as Israelis. Would the current Israeli flag, Star of David and all, be appropriate as a symbol for the united country? Probably not, but the discussion is irrelevant because we are decades if not centuries away from the point where the parties have to choose a flag to represent them both.

 

[theiioftx]

So had a long car drive yesterday which gave me an opportunity to listen to talk radio. I primarily listen to XM Progressive to hear what the leftists are pushing.

Most interesting was a push by Thom Hartmann to send federal troops to the South to re-implement reconstruction and force southerners to comply with removing the confederate flag, expand Medicaid under ACA, follow federal entitlement programs(taxes), gun control and implement national education standards. If people did not comply, he suggested jailing them. He included Texas in his discussion.

Another caller on a later show echoed this sentiment. He took it further to say send southerners to Guantanamo.

I get Hartmann is a socialist. He readily admits it. However, this takes it a step further and does nothing for the conversation. Is this a new push by Progressives or just one idiot with a microphone?

 

[Dionysus]

None of us are absolutely right or wrong. Those that disagree with us are not absolutely right or wrong. The failure to comprehend that or how other people see the world is why this country is so damn partisan right now and congress is not getting anything done.

Well said.

 

[Seattle Husker]

So had a long car drive yesterday which gave me an opportunity to listen to talk radio. I primarily listen to XM Progressive to hear what the leftists are pushing.

Most interesting was a push by Thom Hartmann to send federal troops to the South to re-implement reconstruction and force southerners to comply with removing the confederate flag, expand Medicaid under ACA, follow federal entitlement programs(taxes), gun control and implement national education standards. If people did not comply, he suggested jailing them. He included Texas in his discussion.

Another caller on a later show echoed this sentiment. He took it further to say send southerners to Guantanamo.

I get Hartmann is a socialist. He readily admits it. However, this takes it a step further and does nothing for the conversation. Is this a new push by Progressives or just one idiot with a microphone?

Does anyone listen to that stuff? On this board I'm a "progressive" but it's drivel like that which reinforces my own belief that I'm more of a centrist. I can't say I've ever listened to anything that would be considered "progressive" radio unless one considers NPR to be progressive.

 

[theiioftx]

I hope that is true of most liberals. That was some shocking BS. He seems to be a mouth for the Democrat's socialist candidate though. I laughed as he stated Bernie Sanders is resonating with lots of conservatives. Not sure what color the sky is in Hartmann's world.

 

[CedarParkFan]

So are you saying that Mexicans/Tejanos who "lost" the Texas Revolution are trying to revise it from a "if only our heritage was protected..." standpoint? Interesting. I'd actually like to read more of that.

I think the Anglos that moved to Texas with the assumption that it would eventually join the USA flatly decried Mexico's antislavery laws. I'd have to find the primary source somewhere, but I know it was in my 7th grade Texas history book.

True

 

[Clean]

Today SC will lower their Confederate Flag. ABC will cover the event live. Sorry I'll be at work and miss it.

Meanwhile, here in the Alamo city, City Council want to form a committee to first find offensive Confederate flags/monuments and then "discuss" how they should be handled. Of course, nobody knows where or how many there are. But wherever they are, I'm sure they're offending people. A Bexar County judge has ordered two Confederate National Flags, not the Battle Flag, the witch hunt is expanding, as witch hunts are prone to do, taken down.

Next I expect Six Flags Over Texas to rename itself Five Flags Over Texas and all Robert E. Lee High Schools to be renamed.

 

[nashhorn]

Clean I think that comment says a lot, " form a committee to ..... find offensive Confederate flags/monuments". Now that is a best practice demonstration for use of public funds.

 

[Crockett]

Thom Hartmann sound like the progressive answer to Alex Jones. What a wacko. I think the difference between liberals and progressives is progressives don't pay much attention to our wackos, while folks like Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Jones keep blasting away to big audiences and make big bucks.

 

[Clean]

Thom Hartmann sound like the progressive answer to Alex Jones. What a wacko..

Yes he is. Maybe even wackier than Jones.

 

[IvanDiabloHorn]

Perhaps the San Antonio City Council can form a committee to find a street in the Alamo city without a pot hole. I know there has to be at least one street somewhere in San Antonio without a pothole and who knows, there may even be two streets without a pothole.
Since Mexico lost the war in 1836, perhaps we should ban the Mexican flag in Texas. Surely all Mexicans that fought and served the Mexican tyrant Santa Ana were evil as they helped keep his foot on the necks of Anglo settlers, especially the small percentage that had slaves. My ancestors were German and had no slaves, instead they simply had 12 kids and made them work the fields. Not unlike most Anglo settlers to Texas. The San Antonio City council should find and remove all offensive Mexican statues and flags. I mean really, the Mexicans lost the war 179 years ago. Enough is enough, how long must my people of Anglo be offended? And don't give me any of that "heritage" baloney. Maybe we could tear down the missions as they were built with Indian slave labor. Yes, the Missions were built with Indian slave labor and every time I drive by one of them, I am offended.

Still living in Northern Bexar County fighting annexation by the third world country that is San Antonio.

 

[Htown77]

As for gun control, what "sensible" gun control would have stopped the idiot in South Carolina?

When the story was about Roof, and not about the flag, they said he was awaiting trial for felony drug charges. He bought the gun after it appeared he was going to jail anyway. It seems like a reasonable gun control would be that one could not buy guns until felony charges are dismissed or the person is acquitted. Currently the law says one cannot buy guns only after a conviction.

It's seems like a good idea to have that law to me. Someone who feels like they are going to jail anyway could very well go do more bad things like Roof. Now maybe people would get guns anyway, but it seems like a sensible step to take.

It is a shame this topic got very little discussion as the the discussion became entirely about the flag.

^ This is from earlier in the thread. Someone said I was mistaken and it already was the law those charged with felonies could not get guns. I was mistaken about the law (I am not an NRA member and admit I do not keep up with gun laws. I was going on what was reported in the news, for once, and not my actually legal knowledge. Terrible mistake since I have enough legal education to know that the news does a terrible job of reporting the law). I however was right in wondering how the hell someone charged with a felony was able to buy a gun.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/10/politics/dylann-roof-fbi-gun-south-carolina/index.html

Hey remember in this thread when i said the real issue was, how did someone charged with a felony buy a gun? This issue was ignored until the flag came down. Now that the completely unrelated to anything flag came down, we can now focus on something that actually could have been done to prevent this or at least create an obstacle or delay? Who knows, maybe he gets caught trying to obtain a gun illegally and this tragedy never happens. What a joke this country has become. Apparently both sides in this country do not care about solving real problems, until they get something unrelated they want first. What a f***ing disgrace and dishonor to the people in that church that died that their lives were used to get a symbolic political point accomplished, meaningless to their deaths, before this administration was willing to get to a failure that ACTUALLY and DIRECTLY contributed to their deaths.

How the hell are we going to solve climate change, our growing energy needs, our national debt or anything else when this country is going to use a crisis to go after something unrelated they don't like? (and lord knows conservatives do it just as much as the liberals) I have never been a "obama is the worst president ever" type. I am still not. Honestly, I have felt he was just a continuation of what we have had since Reagan. (every president bombing iraq and spending too much money) However, it is absolutely sorry that this administration sat on this info until the flag came down and yes you better believe they sat on it. It did not take a month to figure this out and there are no coincidences.

 

[Crockett]

If the background check had been successful, Root could have used the "gun show" loophole or bought the pistol in a private transaction. In this country the gun lobby would never tolerate gun laws so restrictive it would difficult for anyone (willing to fib) to get their hands on lethal weaponry and ammo.

 

[Htown77]

Maybe he still would have gotten a gun. I do not know. Any number of things could have happened once he had been denied that sale. Maybe he gets another. Maybe he gives up and stops pursuing a gun. Maybe he has a car accident. The fact of the matter is, he should not have been able to buy that gun at that point in time and would not have been able to if law enforcement had done it's job. The other fact of the matter is that instead of investigating or reporting a mistake that DIRECTLY led this shooter obtaining the weapon he used to kill people, the media and administration has been focussed on a flag. To divert attention to something that may have indirectly influenced a shooter (even though it was not mentioned in his manifesto), while sitting on knowledge of what directly led to the shooting is an injustice to those who died.

I agree, this shows that any law is only as good as its enforcement, but the fact is the attention that should have been directed at those that failed in their job and should lose their jobs has instead been directed at a cloth 120 miles away. People want heads to roll, with good reason, when an officer, not in self defense, takes the life of a black man. Meanwhile an officer or some officers failed, and 9 black lives were lost because of it. Did this president or the media focus on that? No, they focused on a piece of cloth. What a cruel joke.

In the law there are things known as foreseeable and unforeseeable consequences. Some idiot shooting people is not a foreseeable consequence of a flag that has been flying for 50 years which has led to 0 mass shootings. Some idiot wanting to buy a gun before he is about to go to jail ending up shooting people IS A FORESEEABLE RESULT. What reason would anyone about to go to prison have for purchasing a gun, unless they were going to use it.

 

[texas_ex2000]

If the background check had been successful, Root could have used the "gun show" loophole or bought the pistol in a private transaction. In this country the gun lobby would never tolerate gun laws so restrictive it would difficult for anyone (willing to fib) to get their hands on lethal weaponry and ammo.

Root could have made a bomb and left it on the pew.

And btw, I bougt a pistol at a gun show in Virginia this year (1976 Walther PPK/S in .22LR - very beautiful pistol) and I had to fill out a background (criminal and mental) form that the state police checked. I doubt a criminal who's trying to get a gun at a show, would take the risk of being arrested by the police.

I have to find the original study, but a 2001 Justice Dep surveey found that 0.7% criminals obtained their guns from a gun show.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/30/the-gun-show-loophole-myth/

 

[caryhorn]

South Carolina put the confederate battle flag up on state house grounds in 1961 as a response to the civil rights movement, and federal orders to integrate schools & neighborhoods. It was a clear "in your face" response to civil rights efforts.

Prior to that, it was originally used during the civil war as the battle flag for the Army of Virginia, under the command of Robert E. Lee. And many brave, valiant men fought under it. Some died. Some deserted. All were fighting for a cause that supported slavery, treason (attacking United States soldiers that had been ordered into war after South Carolinians started the civil war by attacking Fort Sumter); a rebel cause that went against every tenet of a US Constitution that guaranteed the equality of men, and a sacred unification of states into a Republic.

There were also flags not too long ago that many brave, valiant men fought under. Some of those men were viewed by their countrymen as heroes. Some of those men are related to current citizens of these United States. One of the flags I'm speaking of now is the Nazi flag. The swastika flag of Nazi Germany is found in museums, but nowhere on US, or for that matter, German government property. Some neo Nazi's (American and German) have such flags in their homes. And some will keep the rebel flag in their homes. Freedom of speech is a right for all, even nutcases.

Of course, the Japanese flag had many brave young men fight under it. Their cause was domination and subjugation of a large part of the world. There are US citizens who are related to those young Japanese soldiers who fought and died. Thank goodness a whole lot of them died. Otherwise, I would be writing this in Japanese.

And you know what, thank goodness that the Yankees killed more rebels than vice versa. And oh yes, I had relatives who fought for both North and South. Just imagine the world without the great country we have today. Imagine a country now with a ruling class living off the horrific policies of ruthless self interest, and brutality of slavery.

Thank God the confederate flag, that treasonous, symbol has finally been taken down from state house property and put a museum.

 

[Htown77]

South Carolina put the confederate battle flag up on state house grounds in 1961 as a response to the civil rights movement, and federal orders to integrate schools & neighborhoods. It was a clear "in your face" response to civil rights efforts.

This is incorrect and has already been straightened out in this thread.

I will jump in quickly to say this IS and HAS BEEN a lie.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/

"In 1961, to honor the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War, South Carolina lawmakers raised the Confederate battle flag over the State House."

This has been looked into and it was indeed put up for the 100th anniversary of the civil war. CNN initially reported the lie you wrote down, but changed because the evidence in this particular case was pretty clear that it was not in response to civil rights.

Thanks for the correction. This NY Daily news article backs that up. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/little-known-confederate-flag-facts-article-1.2268164

I did find this nugget which is likely why the perception of the flag is so negative by non-Southerners.

At some point you have to realize that perception is reality and guilt by association can be just as damaging.

I respect you Carryhorn, but you opened your post by repeating a lie that has already been proven false in this thread. I have a hard time responding to anything you wrote after that.

Also, the treason argument dumb. Texas committed treason against Mexico. The Colonies committed treason against the British Empire. The founding fathers committed treason against the articles of confederation when they drafted a constitution in violation of their directive from the articles of confederation government. The process for amending the articles of confederation was not followed. Our Constitution itself is a treasonous document against a democratically elected articles of confederation government.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Treason is in our declaration of independence. The United States Federal Government no longer had the consent of the majority of the south. Right or wrongly, they attempted to institute a new government just like what was done in Texas or in the colonies before.

You can certainly attack the reason for treason. However, when both our nation and our state were founded on treason, (our nation double treason against the british and our own articles of confederation government) it is dumb to attack the concept of treason itself.

a rebel cause that went against every tenet of a US Constitution that guaranteed the equality of men

You are not familiar with the Constitution before the 14th amendment. Hell even after the 14th amendment to some extent. It certainly did not guarantee the equality of men. In some respects it does today, in others it does not.

 

[caryhorn]

In fact, the civil war was treasonous. All those who fought to divide our country were indeed treasonous. It doesn't get any more treasonous than to attack federal property with the intent of destroying the Union. Trying to destroy the Union in order to uphold an economic system based on the horrors of slavery is unconscionable. That is the history that the battle flag represents.

No doubt our founding fathers were guilty of treason against England. But we won. So England didn't get to hang George Washington or Thomas Jefferson. Hooray for the good guys. Had the South won the civil war that would not have changed the fact that their acts were acts of treason against the United States of America. Had they won they would have established their own country and US law could not have reached them.

Why do you think there were prison camps for captured soldiers. Because they were seen as treasonous, dangerous persons who had to be kept in cages until the war ended and the winning country could decide what to do with them. Reconstruction was their answer.

The confederate battle flag is a symbol representing direct acts of treason against the USA.

By the way, I stand by my reading of history which concurs with my reasons and timing of why and when the flag was originally placed at the SC statehouse.

 

[Htown77]

By the way, I stand by my reading of history which concurs with my reasons and timing of why and when the flag was originally placed at the SC statehouse.

Okay. CNN and the New York Times disagree. The raising of the flag in 1961 concurs with the raising of the flag in 1861 as it was exactly 100 years apart. You, however, are free to read history anyway you want it. You are free to read the constitution prior to the civil war as guaranteeing equality. I shall read it the way I want it to read it. We are equal, therefore we each get an equal say.

Yet again, a discussion on the fact that the shooter was able to obtain the murder weapon because someone at the FBI did not do their job gets derailed by discussion about a cloth with points already discussed in this thread. No one cares about the but for cause of the crime. What matters most to people is using this opportunity to remove a symbol they do not like because of the personal meaning they have assigned to it, not what directly led to the murder of 9 people or the truth. No one at the FBI has been fired but we got the Dukes of Hazzard taken off the air because that was more important. I kind of think the previous sentence being our nation's response is f***ed up. Like the south, i give up.

 

[caryhorn]

Sorry for the confusion regarding my statement about the Constitution supporting equality of all men. That should have said the second paragraph in the Declaration of Independence. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html I do believe that the ideas Thomas Jefferson penned so long ago in this wonderful document are supported by the constitution which was written a few years later at the Constitutional Convention. Certainly, it took awhile for those words to be recognized in the laws and culture nationwide. And yes many other amendments have been added to cement the ideals penned by Jefferson in our Country's founding document.

Even so the hearts of men aren't ruled by documents and law. But rule of law is one tool to manage the behavior of men. Good upbringing is likely the most effective.

he raising of the flag in 1961 concurs with the raising of the flag in 1861 as it was exactly 100 years apart.

Why would anyone want to celebrate the beginning of one of the most bloody and divisive periods in our history? I, and many, many others, don't buy that the centennial was the only reason for raising that flag.

 

[Htown77]

Why would anyone want to celebrate the beginning of one of the most bloody and divisive periods in our history?

Have you ever lived in the South? Read this entire thread. The short of it is, not everyone sees things the same way and no, it's not simply because of "ignorance or bigotry."

 

[Seattle Husker]

FWIW- CNN is reporting that the FBI has admitted that mistakes in the Background Check process allowed Dylan Roof to purchase a gun.

 

[Htown77]

Haha i was just going on about this in a long winded fashion earlier on this page.

The person at the FBI who messed up has not been fired, but Dukes of Hazzard is off the air. I know I feel safer with that person still employed by the FBI and the Dukes of Hazzard off the air.

 

[Seattle Husker]

The confederate flag issue is completely independent to this, IMHO. One has to do with the cultural icons of someone that would commit a heinous act like this and the other is the process breakdown in stopping or detecting the crime.

I wonder if the station that pulled the Dukes of Hazzard was contemplating cancelling the reruns anyways. I also have to wonder if Bubba Watson is getting a lot of grief for saying he was going to paint the roof of the original DoH car he owns.

 

[Htown77]

They are separate issues. One has a lot more direct relation to the crime. The other is remotely and indirectly related if it all. Again, his manifesto does not mention the confederacy, it discussed Trayvon Martin. We do not know if it had anything to do with causing the crime. It has been there 50 years and caused 0 mass shooting. Meanwhile, this FBI failure directly resulted in the shooter obtaining the murder weapon. The president and media have focussed on the flag and have not mentioned the FBI error until after the flag was taken down. The latest CNN article shows the FBI was aware at least a week after the shooting and did not put forth this information until the flag was taken down. The same president who demanded action against the flag, has not taken action against the employee that messed up and allowed the shooter to get the murder weapon. I, for one, pointed to the "someone about to go to proson should not be able to purchase a gun" issue out way back when. Instead attention has focussed on the flag. I think it's kind of messed up. Especially since the shooter had picture with Rhodesian flags and other symbols as well. Obviously the shooter managed to have access to a Rhodesian Flag and "possibly be influenced by it" despite there being none in public places. I am left to conclude that people do not care about what directly led to the crime, but instead care more about a using this opportunity to remove a symbol they do not care for from public places.

If the president had cared about truly investigating this crime, preventing another and bringing some form of justice, the FBI agent would have already been sacked and this information would have been made known to the public a long time ago. The media should have spent more time looking into how he obtained the gun. Achieving a political goal was more important for to the president, the media, and many americans than the investigation of how the crime occurred.

 

[caryhorn]

Have you ever lived in the South? Read this entire thread. The short of it is, not everyone sees things the same way and no, it's not simply because of "ignorance or bigotry."

I was born and raised in Texas. My great grandfather was a 16 year old soldier that fought for the south in the North Carolina infantry at Manasses. He was fortunate to survive the war. In fact, I am certain he saw the battle flag of Virginia waved on one battle field or another. He became someone who was quite well respected in his community after the war. Yet he held no sentimentality about the war, and knew first hand of the great suffering caused by slavery, and the war that was waged in an attempt to preserve it. And saw it divide the country, states and even families. He came to realize that the war was a horrible mistake, fought for all the wrong reasons. I have no doubt that he would have wanted the Battle Flag retired to a museum shortly after the Civil War ended. I happen to agree with him. Just my own opinion.

Of course we are all free to hold and express varying opinions. And my respect for those who express differing views from mine is intact. You and I know that the freedom to express differences is one of the values that bind us all together in this melting pot of a nation.

 

[zork]

How about we ban all flags but this one: . Of course official embassy buildings may have one flag, only one, up on the flagpole outside their office in DC during daylight hours only. The UN as well. Well, Canada isn't allowed to have theirs up at all because Canada.

 

[texas_ex2000]

I was born and raised in Texas. My great grandfather was a 16 year old soldier that fought for the south in the North Carolina infantry at Manasses. He was fortunate to survive the war. In fact, I am certain he saw the battle flag of Virginia waved on one battle field or another. He became someone who was quite well respected in his community after the war. Yet he held no sentimentality about the war, and knew first hand of the great suffering caused by slavery, and the war that was waged in an attempt to preserve it. And saw it divide the country, states and even families. He came to realize that the war was a horrible mistake, fought for all the wrong reasons. I have no doubt that he would have wanted the Battle Flag retired to a museum shortly after the Civil War ended. I happen to agree with him. Just my own opinion.

Of course we are all free to hold and express varying opinions. And my respect for those who express differing views from mine is intact. You and I know that the freedom to express differences is one of the values that bind us all together in this melting pot of a nation.

Actions speak louder than than words. A symbol, a flag, represents whatever someone says it represents. To some, it's discrminaton. To others it represents pride in a part of the countey they call home. Neither interpretation of that symbol is wrong, nor can anyone say their definition is the definitve one. And there are many other examples, previously cited, that illustrate this.

One universal maxim, however, is that actions speak louder than words. Whatever anyone says about why and when SC put the flag on their capital grounds, the virtues and values of a TV show and a Dodge Charger, Kid Rock's Detroit NAACP award - those are all words. The people of South Carolina elected an African American US Senator and a Indian American woman as governor. More importantly, these two were elected with broad support across all voter blocs. Has your state done this? Probably not. That is action.

I guess my point is, we focus too much on symbols who's meanings are nebulous when there are concrete and esoteric racism drivers that we need to address. And yes, the focus on nebulous symbols does not help the fight against racism because racists will still use those symbols. It diverts attention away from the fundamental issues of class and race divides. And when another tragedy happens again, probably by some ******* with the Stars and Bars, we will once again be in this circle trying to figure out why this has happened.

 

[theiioftx]

I am all for removing anything and anyone related to slavery. With that said, can we please change the name of Washington DC? After all, slave owner George Washington should not be celebrated. I vote for Earl Campbell on the one dollar bill as well.

 

[Clean]

All this silliness has caused Confederate Battle Flag sales to soar. One guy said he sold 37 all of last year. Since this flap started, he's sold three times that amount.