Rebel Flag Reverence

One wonders why Lincoln did not emancipate slaves in all states?
or why Lincoln championed another 13th amendment that constitutionally enshrined slavery in states allowing that servitude.
That 13th amendment was on its' way to be passed when war broke out.
Lincoln 's actions and words are well beyond semantics.
 
theiioftx said:
Not yet, but some are starting the process. Obama's political speech masqueraded as an eulogy suggested it as well.
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Maybe you can point me to the statements where Obama inferred this. I haven't watched the eulogy. I don't believe Swastika's are illegal so I have a hard time imagining to Confederate flag ever being made illegal.
 
Did Lincoln favor freedom from slavery to all blacks when he backed the Corwin amendment? Interesting is the fact that Illinois and Ohio ratified the Corwin amendment and then shortly after went to war against the south over slavery. Sounds logical.
 
One wonders why Lincoln did not emancipate slaves in all states?
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He was subject to limitations of power and the political process. He backed the Corwin Amendment in preference to waging a Civil War to keep the union intact.

I never contended that Lincoln was perfect. But like Jefferson he was both a skilled politician and a transformative leader. A man politically correct by today's standard would be hopelessly out of touch with Americans of 1790 or 1860. Lincoln's vision of a united, slave-free, country was so radical to the people of his time that had he been a leader of lesser caliber, it might never have been achieved.
 
Crockett
"Lincoln's vision of a united, slave-free, country was so radical"
When exactly did Lincoln have this vision?
Lincoln felt whites were superior to blacks, felt separation of blacks from whites was the ideal way. He didn't think blacks should vote.

BTW the first 13th amendment or Corwin amendment was put forth in 1861, the Emancipation Proclamation was in 1863
and meant nothing since it was directed at the Confederacy but did nothing for the slaves in the slave states in the Union.
If he had such a long standing vision he would have freed the slaves in the states over which he wads President not issue some meaningless proclamation.
But you are right. Abe believed and wanted a united country and he u means he could. But he makes it clear over and over how he personally feels about blacks and that he as President would not interfere with slave states.
 
I think 6721, you are confusing a drafted but never ratified 13th amendment with the one that actually was passed and ratified after the Civil War. As a commander in chief Lincoln had the military power to emanicpate slaves in belligerent territory. He did not have that power in the rest of the union (hence the Constitutional Amendment.)Border states Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland and Deleware were slave states and were of political and military importance.

Here is an excerpt from a famous letter Lincoln wrote to Horace Greely.
"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.
I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free."
Yours,
A. Lincoln."

The Union Victory in the Civil War made emancipation of slaves politically possible. It would not have been politically possible prior to the war. Lincoln was a politician, skilled and visionary, but necessarily pragmatic and a product of his times.
 
Crockett
This "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union" isn't exactly a noble vision of a slave free country is it?
Abe's vision of a United America was important enough to him that he even would consider freeing all slaves OR keeping all blacks enslaved. Freeing all slaves was NEVER his paramount vision.
Yet people continue to push that as his main goal.
 
Your doubts aside, I contend Lincoln was "the great emancipator." You have a better nominee for that title? The union was preserved, the slaves were emancipated. The key, indispensible leader in the process was none other than A. Lincoln. He was human and imperfect, but maybe the most important leader in the history of this country. His failure to meet current expectations of political correctness also might lend an exculpatory perspective on Confederate leaders a decade or two behind in the enlightenment process.
 
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I'm not sure anyone has stated he valued freeing all slaves above all else but clearly he states that if that is an option while achieving his primary goal of saving the union he'd do it. That was pretty forward thinking for his day and why I called him an opportunist.
 
? Abe also said if keeping slaves slaves resulted in preserving the Union he was for that too. Was that " forward thinking"
Where in his words do you see him saying he preferred freeing all the blacks when he felt blacks were inferior?
In fact the Corwin amendment of 1861 was exactly for that, keeping slaves slaves and NO I am not confusing the 2 13th amendments. The earlier one, keeping slaves slaves would have passed if not for war.

Lincoln had no authority in the Confederacy so the EP was meaningless. That would have been like FDR declaring all Jews in Europe should be free of persecution and could not be sent to death camps.

Not sure why otherwise intelligent people feel the need to ascribe to Lincoln visions and feelings his own words clearly show he did not have. Thinking he and all white people are superior to blacks makes him an ultimate racist.
 
Actually, much of the Confederacy was under Union Control when the Proclamation was issued 6721 and certainly a lot more territory was brought under Union control in the months that followed.

As far as his personal views, they were in the last full sentence of the letter. "... I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free."
As I've state earlier, Lincoln ran on an "anti-slavery" platform which was a stance, not an immediate or practicable goal, when he was running for President. It was part of the Republican Party's platform, to the GOP's everlasting credit.

And as hateful as you think Lincoln's views on race were, you should read some of the pro-sessession literature, some of which is contained in the Atlantic Article I linked above. Again, Lincoln and the Confederate leaders were products of their times and it's hardly fair to judge their views on race by today's standards. Lincoln's results were revolutionary and commendable.
 
I have no plans to rewatch his speech. I think his reference to the confederate flag was covered by pretty much every news outlet. Personally, I do not think it has a place on a government building, but I do not live in South Carolina. The rush to political correctness has been unbelievable. if a store chooses to not carry it in inventory, that is their free right to do so. I suspect the bakery issue to grow as more people challenge each other. Heck, WalMart refuses to make a confederate flag cake, but will make an ISIS themed one. :yippee:

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/06/walmart_apologizes_for_making_isis_themed_cake.html
 
For example, the facts show that SC didn't place the flag on it's capital building until 1964 as a response to the Civil Rights movement and the Feds pushing desegregation.
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I will jump in quickly to say this IS and HAS BEEN a lie.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/

"In 1961, to honor the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War, South Carolina lawmakers raised the Confederate battle flag over the State House."

This has been looked into and it was indeed put up for the 100th anniversary of the civil war. CNN initially reported the lie you wrote down, but changed because the evidence in this particular case was pretty clear that it was not in response to civil rights.
 
Htown77 said:
I will jump in quickly to say this IS and HAS BEEN a lie.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confederate-flag-myths-facts/

"In 1961, to honor the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War, South Carolina lawmakers raised the Confederate battle flag over the State House."

This has been looked into and it was indeed put up for the 100th anniversary of the civil war. CNN initially reported the lie you wrote down, but changed because the evidence in this particular case was pretty clear that it was not in response to civil rights.
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Thanks for the correction. This NY Daily news article backs that up. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/little-known-confederate-flag-facts-article-1.2268164

I did find this nugget which is likely why the perception of the flag is so negative by non-Southerners.

6. Racists LOVE the Confederate flag.

According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, more than 500 white supremacist groups use variations of it as one of their symbols. The pro-segregation Dixiecrat party in 1948 adopted the flag, which later was commonly used as a segregationist symbol.

The Ku Klux Klan has its own official flag, but its members have commonly flown the battle flag for years. So have white supremacist groups in parts of Europe, where the Nazi swastika was made illegal.
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At some point you have to realize that perception is reality and guilt by association can be just as damaging.
 
At some point you have to realize that perception is reality and guilt by association can be just as damaging.
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I am not disagreeing with this point and, just a quick clarification to anyone else reading (because I think it was obvious to you) was not calling you a liar just this fact was a lie that has been spread quite a bit. Anyway, I think people have enough personal reasons to be angry, rightly or wrongly, with the flag, just wanted to remove an illegitimate one.
 
Htown77 said:
I am not disagreeing with this point and, just a quick clarification to anyone else reading (because I think it was obvious to you) was not calling you a liar just this fact was a lie that has been spread quite a bit. Anyway, I think people have enough personal reasons to be angry, rightly or wrongly, with the flag, just wanted to remove an illegitimate one.
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No worries. I don't want to misstate facts and clearly I was given some false information. Thanks for the clarification. Now the question is, did it have a double purpose? Celebrate the 100 year Centennial and give the feds a middle finger?
 
Celebrate the 100 year Centennial and give the feds a middle finger?
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All I can say as someone with South Carolina ties.... they, as a people, are pretty proud of seceding, nullifying and generally being obstinate. I would believe that they would have put it up at 100 years, regardless of any civil rights movement or any resurgence in the flag. I am also pretty sure that this one particular matter was over pride of being obstinate. They've been under NCAA and other sanctions over the flag since 2000 and still have not to removed it. This is just speculation as no one really knows what was in the legislators' hearts and minds in 1961.

All I can say to understand South Carolina, a lot of what they do is guided by obstinance more so than anyone else except maybe Texas. Remember, they were the only state to nullify the tariff in the 1830s, they are the state of Francis Marion and guerrilla warfare (see the movie the Patriot) and they were the first state to secede.

Another example: Initially state legislatures, not the people, selected the electors for President of the United States. "By 1828, with the rise of Jacksonian Democracy, only Delaware and South Carolina used legislative choice. Delaware ended its practice the following election (1832), while South Carolina continued using the method until it seceded from the Union in December 1860. South Carolina used the popular vote for the first time in the 1868 election." That flag at the capitol stands as much for the state's history of general obstinance to everything as much as it does racism or anything else.

As my Southern Political History professor at UT put it "Texas and South Carolina have always been the two most conservative, rebellious states in the union, South Carolina more so than Texas."
 
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Crockett
Absolutely the secessionists spoke and wrote vile racist words but none of them has been touted as black people's savior.
I find it amusing that all of Lincoln's racist remarks are excused or ignored.
But I find his desire to above all else preserve our Union very admirable and for that alone we should revere him.
If he can be forgiven for being a racist because he was a product of his time maybe there are others we should take another look at others.
I think you alluded to that.
Lee for instance was known to think slavery evil yet he fought for the Confederacy with everything he had.
 
Lee's freeing of slaves was in keeping with the will of their deceased owner, his father-in law. Lee was honorable as executor of the estate:

In his will, George Washington Parke Custis stipulated that all the Arlington slaves should be freed upon his death if the estate was found to be in good financial standing or within five years otherwise. When Custis died in 1857, Robert E. Lee—the executor of the estate—determined that the slave labor was necessary to improve Arlington's financial status. The Arlington slaves found Lee to be a more stringent taskmaster than his predacessor. Eleven slaves were “hired out” while others were sent to the Pamunkey River estates. In accordance with Custis's instructions, Lee officially freed the slaves on December 29, 1862.
 
don't know what the fuss is all about--flying my stars and bars "with insert Rebel Pride" for last few days--yep, grew up in the 60's with Archie Manning as my hero, thus the Confederate flag--Hotty Toddy!!==too young to remember it as being a CSA flag (was born in 1964}, so if you don't care for that then, as another flag states that someone will invariably want to also remove---"Come and Take It!"
 
Horn87 said:
don't know what the fuss is all about
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Really? Or is that just a cute way to start a statement? Maybe you didn't read the rest of the posts on the thread, but I'd assume someone who loved the school of James Meredith would have at least a basic understanding of what the fuss is about.
 
Horn 87, I believe, correctly represents the naive innocence many attach to display of the Conferate Battle Flag. To some it is a way to represent family pride in ancestors who fought for the South. I think in this thread there is plenty of evidence that to some it represents ideas far more controversial.
 
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HMMM.. that confederate flag looks exactly like the one Union soldiers waved at Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest on numerous occasions.
 
IvanDiabloHorn said:
HMMM.. that confederate flag looks exactly like the one Union soldiers waved at Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest on numerous occasions.
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You mean the same General Forrest who ordered this?
"The slaughter was awful. Words cannot describe the scene. The poor, deluded, negroes would run up to our men, fall upon their knees, and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. I, with several others, tried to stop the butchery, and at one time had partially succeeded, but General Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued. Finally our men became sick of blood and the firing ceased."

I was under the impression that Lincoln was a bigger racist. Military tactics aside, it's weird that so many celebrate the slave trading, KKK-founding Forrest as much as they do.
 
Or Woodrow Wilson, Harry Truman, Calvin Coolidge, William McKinley, Warren Harding or Robert Byrd.

People had very misguided beliefs and ideas over the history of the world. If only we could erase all symbols, remove all flags and burn all books that reference the past.
 
I heard one historian say on the History Channel that Forrest was one of two authentic geniuses of the Civil War (the other being Lincoln). Shows how important the values that motivate you can be. Lincoln with his face on the penny, $5 bill, is arguably this country's most revered figure. Forrest's legacy includes quotes like the one above and credit for founding the KKK (though it took on aspects much more extreme than Forrest ever wanted.)
 
Actually it is not known that Forrest gave an order to shoot the black men like dogs although the Confederate Sgt who wrote that is quoted often.
Perhaps he did but here is a compilation of other quotes from people at the Fort Pillow massacre , men from both sides and both black and white.
If Forrest is the one who ordered the shooting like dogs he also ordered his men to stop and he got between his men and Union soldiers.
"
Survivors of Fort Pillow quotes
Two days after the battle Achilles V. Clark, a Confederate soldier, wrote his sister a letter about what he witnessed in the fight. Clark stated: “ ‘The poor deluded negroes would run up to our men fall upon their knees and with uplifted hands scream for mercy but they were ordered to their feet and then shot down. The white men fared but little better. Their fort turned out to be a great slaughter pen—blood human blood stood about in pools and brains could hav been gathered up in any quantity. I with several others tried to stop the butchery and at one point had partially succeeded—but Gen. Forrest ordered them shot down like dogs and the carnage continued.’ ”

Confederate Samuel Caldwell said the Union soldiers had refused to surrender “which incensed our men & if General Forrest had not run between our men and the Yanks with his pistol and saber drawn not a man would have been spared.”

Private Ellis Falls, a black Union soldier, said that Forrest ordered the Confederates to “quit fighting.”

Private Major Williams, a Union soldier, said he heard one Confederate officer shout that the blacks should be killed and then another Confederate officer contradicted him and said that Forrest had ordered them to capture the blacks and return them to their masters.

One captured Federal, Charles Fitch, ran up to Forrest and asked for protection. When Fitch said he was from Iowa, Forrest then said: “What in hell are you down here for? I have a great mind to have you killed for being down here.” Forrest then told one of his soldiers to keep Fitch safe.

First Sergeant Wilbur Gaylord of the 6th U.S. Heavy Artillery, a black soldier, was wounded as the Confederates came over the wall. He offered to surrender and was taken prisoner. But at the same time he saw a Confederate soldier “shoot down three black men who were begging for their lives, and who had surrendered.”
http://www.tn4me.org/sapage.cfm/sa_id/28/era_id/5/major_id/5/minor_id/4/a_id/24

Forrest is not a sympathetic figure and likely did vile things in war, since most do, but the above quotes cast doubt on whether he is the one who gave that actual order 11 quoted above.
 
Daytona race track will offer voluntary flag exchanges this weekend: http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/st...untary-confederate-flag-exchange-race-weekend

DIS President Joie Chitwood said Tuesday that because fans had purchased tickets and the event is so close to happening, he would not change the flag policy for this weekend. He said the track will offer United States flags in exchange for Confederate flags.

"We want to be inclusive to everyone, and the last thing you want is for anyone to come to a sporting event and really not enjoy that experience because of symbols that really represent things we're not proud of," Chitwood told reporters after a news conference to announce a new track sponsor.

"For us, we're celebrating the American flag this weekend. It's our nation's birthday. ... Going forward, we'll really have to look at where that other flag goes, because it doesn't have a place in our sport and we've got to take a thoughtful process on how we get to that place."
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Will this have the Nascar crowd up in arms?
 
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