Raid on Trump's home

Garmel said:
2) Conservative agenda? Which one is that? The one where we get bent over constantly with the neocons in charge of the party?

Sorry, but the America First crowd, the one you call ********, are our only chance.
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Garmel, I think we are on the same page. Your 2 is why I don't call myself a Republican anymore. Any problems we face in the country they presided over or allowed to happen. I will still vote for Republicans based on who they are individually. But ideologically I am a libertarian. Small to no government. Cut down the federal government. Decentralize power to states and further down if it increases freedom.

I like the America First crowd except their economics is absolutely atrocious. It's basically fascism or a Catholic dictatorship depending on which person you are talking about.
 
horninchicago said:
Please, I'm sick of hearing that Trump's tweets lost the election. It was the concerted effort from the media and the left. And, maybe his biggest mistake, the reaction to the covid and allowing lockdowns, etc, and not firing Fauci and Birx.
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Well. That and all the voting fraud.
 
Garmel said:
Trafalgar and People's Pundit. They lean conservative and are extremely accurate, more so than the big boys. The losses in '18 and '20 were due to other factors like 24/7 negative media coverage, not mean tweets.
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For starters, when I refer to "mean Tweets," I'm using the phrase colloquially to refer broadly to Trump's personality and demeanor demeanor, which includes but is not limited to actual Tweets. Also, does Cahaly affirmatively say Trump's approach has nothing to do with it, or does he say negative media coverage was the cause? Makes a big difference, because at least in my view, the two are massively interrelated.

Garmel said:
All of those accomplishments were 20 or so years ago. The neocons have ruined the party with endless overseas fighting and the lack of wanting to engage the libs in the culture wars. Even when we have all branches of government under control we keep losing.
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A few things to recall. First, Bush did get tax relief passed (like Trump did). Second, in 2003, did you feel the same way about Afghanistan and Iraq that you do now? I'll bet you didn't. (And I don't judge you for that. I didn't either.) Do bear in mind that only one member of Congress voted against going into Afghanistan at the time. (Surprisingly, it was not Bernie Sanders.) Third, for all the talk about how weak more traditional Republicans were on the culture, we were in a lot better shape culturally in 2004 than we are now. On some issues, we're nuttier than most of Europe now.
 
Mr. Deez said:
For starters, when I refer to "mean Tweets," I'm using the phrase colloquially to refer broadly to Trump's personality and demeanor demeanor, which includes but is not limited to actual Tweets. Also, does Cahaly affirmatively say Trump's approach has nothing to do with it, or does he say negative media coverage was the cause? Makes a big difference, because at least in my view, the two are massively interrelated.



A few things to recall. First, Bush did get tax relief passed (like Trump did). Second, in 2003, did you feel the same way about Afghanistan and Iraq that you do now? I'll bet you didn't. (And I don't judge you for that. I didn't either.) Do bear in mind that only one member of Congress voted against going into Afghanistan at the time. (Surprisingly, it was not Bernie Sanders.) Third, for all the talk about how weak more traditional Republicans were on the culture, we were in a lot better shape culturally in 2004 than we are now. On some issues, we're nuttier than most of Europe now.
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I've never heard Cahaly or Rich Baris (People's Pundit) claim Trump's personality is why that he lost. Trump lost due to negativity from the media on Russian Collusion and Covid. They also believe election fraud occurred in large numbers as well. In fact, Trafalgar includes democrat fraud in their polling. Baris doesn't buy into the narrative that you believe about Trump costing us the senate due to Georgia either.

Trump did more good for this country than both Bush and son combined.

In 2003 I was busy doing my civic duty of selling beer to the public and was uninformed. I admit I did fall for the propaganda. We were lied to about the WMDs in Iraq. We should have taken Russia's advice about staying out of Afghanistan.
 
Garmel said:
I've never heard Cahaly or Rich Baris (People's Pundit) claim Trump's personality is why that he lost. Trump lost due to negativity from the media on Russian Collusion and Covid.
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They aren't mutually exclusive, and that's the point. A lot of things can be true at the same time. The media, Russian Collusion, and Covid cost Trump the election. If any one of those things had gone the other way, he would have won. I think that's pretty obvious. In fact, had he gotten a fair media for his entire administration, I don't think it would have even been very close. Basically, Biden would have won the solid blue states, and that's about it.

The issue is whether Trump's rhetoric or behavior impacted the effectiveness of those things. For example, would people have bought into the Russian collusion thing if Trump didn't say a lot of nice things about Vladimir Putin? I think far fewer would have. What would someone who actually colluded with Russia have said differently? Not much. He played into his opponents' narratives and gave them ammo to make those narratives look true virtually nonstop.

Garmel said:
Trump did more good for this country than both Bush and son combined.
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He appointed three solid SCOTUS justices. Beyond that, he passed a tax cut and deregulated - basically like most Republicans have.

Garmel said:
In 2003 I was busy doing my civic duty of selling beer to the public and was uninformed. I admit I did fall for the propaganda. We were lied to about the WMDs in Iraq. We should have taken Russia's advice about staying out of Afghanistan
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And an important civic duty that is. I'll always respect it.

There's a balance. I think we had to go after Osama Bin Laden. You can't just let that **** slide. The problem is that after he was killed, we had a tough time deciding what exactly we were doing. The point basically got lost.
 
Mr. Deez said:
They aren't mutually exclusive, and that's the point. A lot of things can be true at the same time. The media, Russian Collusion, and Covid cost Trump the election. If any one of those things had gone the other way, he would have won. I think that's pretty obvious. In fact, had he gotten a fair media for his entire administration, I don't think it would have even been very close. Basically, Biden would have won the solid blue states, and that's about it.

The issue is whether Trump's rhetoric or behavior impacted the effectiveness of those things. For example, would people have bought into the Russian collusion thing if Trump didn't say a lot of nice things about Vladimir Putin? I think far fewer would have. What would someone who actually colluded with Russia have said differently? Not much. He played into his opponents' narratives and gave them ammo to make those narratives look true virtually nonstop.



He appointed three solid SCOTUS justices. Beyond that, he passed a tax cut and deregulated - basically like most Republicans have.



And an important civic duty that is. I'll always respect it.

There's a balance. I think we had to go after Osama Bin Laden. You can't just let that **** slide. The problem is that after he was killed, we had a tough time deciding what exactly we were doing. The point basically got lost.
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Most people view Trump as being nice to Putin in order to get what he wants from him. Unfortunately, many of the libs and neocons couldn't get over their irrational hate for Trump to see what's really going on.

Trump's Middle East peace accords, no new wars, highest median income ever in America, building the wall, SCOTUS judges, etc.. Best president in our lifetime. Bar none.
 
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Horn6721 said:
Mr D
So you see only those 3 things Trump did good for our country?
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They aren't the only good things he did, but they were the only good things he did that are long term (like the things I mentioned that were done by previous administrations). The other things are being undone and/or undermined, including the Middle East stuff, which he never got enough credit for.
 
If Biden/Demx weren't dismantling all the other good stuff Trump you think we would be better off as a country?
 
Mr. Deez said:
They aren't the only good things he did, but they were the only good things he did that are long term (like the things I mentioned that were done by previous administrations). The other things are being undone and/or undermined, including the Middle East stuff, which he never got enough credit for.
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As much as I dislike Trump as a human, he took easy simple steps to make us a strong country both nationally and worldwide. He just couldn’t help be an arrogant ahole while he was doing it.

I think DeSantis can do it without being Trump.
 
DeSantis pushes all the buttons for the right just as Hillary and Obama did for the left. Obama was charismatic and the lady on the broomstick was not. Trump was a salesman and tv star and charismatic and she was not.
DeSantis has charisma on a scale with Bob Dole. As we saw then, being right doesn’t get you elected

it remains to be seen whether DeSantis can win the GOP nomination. If he does I think the Dems are going to have to help him by nominating somebody really ghastly. And who doesn’t hide in the basement for the entire campaign
 
DeSantis has an actual record to run on. The Populist Right loves him. I guarantee you that. The same people who voted for Trump.
 
huisache said:
DeSantis pushes all the buttons for the right just as Hillary and Obama did for the left. Obama was charismatic and the lady on the broomstick was not. Trump was a salesman and tv star and charismatic and she was not.
DeSantis has charisma on a scale with Bob Dole. As we saw then, being right doesn’t get you elected

it remains to be seen whether DeSantis can win the GOP nomination. If he does I think the Dems are going to have to help him by nominating somebody really ghastly. And who doesn’t hide in the basement for the entire campaign
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Desantis isn't a charming guy, but he's a better communicator than Bob Dole was. He was a tremendous war hero and a decent guy, but he was a poor communicator. And Desantis won't say and do the am stupid **** Trump did. The Democrats greatly fear him, because he exposes their nutty size.
 
DeSantis is not afraid to go on the attack against leftists and their compliant lap-dogs in the media. He is very much like Trump in this regard.

DeSantis just won't step on his own dick via poorly thought out, ham-handed, off the cuff remarks nearly as often as Trump did, if ever.
 
Monahorns said:
DeSantis has an actual record to run on. The Populist Right loves him. I guarantee you that. The same people who voted for Trump.
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I agree, I just don't think he has the personal appeal that a country obsessed with charismatic leaders will follow. And keep in mind that having all of Trump's adherents following you doesn't get you enough votes to win.
 
Desantis will get more than just Trump voters. He'll get Trump voters, but he'll also get voters who were conservative leaning but were squeamish about Trump's sloppiness and chaotic style. He also hasn't blatantly attacked the foreign policy establishment like Trump has, so the Never Trump crowd will at least be divided on that point.
 
Mr. Deez said:
He also hasn't blatantly attacked the foreign policy establishment like Trump has, so the Never Trump crowd will at least be divided on that point.
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That is probably enough to get him elected.

I think the real problem DC, Deep State had with Trump was the foreign policy positions he ran on. His positions didn't get carried out due to his cabinet appointments. Once Flynn was railroaded all that was compromised and the establishment filled positions with establishment people. Trump either wasn't aware of the problem or powerless to stop it. Probably a little of both.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Desantis will get more than just Trump voters. He'll get Trump voters, but he'll also get voters who were conservative leaning but were squeamish about Trump's sloppiness and chaotic style. He also hasn't blatantly attacked the foreign policy establishment like Trump has, so the Never Trump crowd will at least be divided on that point.
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If I remember the electoral counts correctly, if a strong Republican that is less offensive than Trump runs, then GOP can win NV, NH, and the single district in Neb (which Trump lost in both 2016 and 2020). Since IA, OH, NC, and FL are now solid red, that means the GOP candidate only has to win AZ and GA to win (no need for MN, WI, PA, MI).
 
Monahorns said:
I think the real problem DC, Deep State had with Trump was the foreign policy positions he ran on.
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It don't think that's the case. I think it's true for the intelligence and defense realm, which is substantial. I think most of them have personally been voting for Democrats since 2008 (and a significant minority since 1996 when it became clear that the Democrats had purged the foreign policy critics from their leadership and were largely ok with a big defense budget), but they didn't hate the GOP and would be ok with a McCain, Bush, or Romney.

I think the rest of DC is another story. If Trump had been no different from Romney on foreign policy, they may have preferred that, but they loathed Trump because he strongly appealed to people of traditional values, who are the people DC detests the most. Keep in mind that they took a dump on Mitt Romney as well. It wasn't as relentless as it was with Trump, but that's because he didn't appeal to people of traditional values as strongly as Trump did. If foreign policy was the overriding factor, they wouldn't have cared to see Romney win.
 
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Mr. Deez said:
but they didn't hate the GOP and would be ok with a McCain, Bush, or Romney.
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They didn't hate them because those were neocons who were eagerly on board with their foreign policy.

Mr. Deez said:
I think the rest of DC is another story. If Trump had been no different from Romney on foreign policy, they may have preferred that, but they loathed Trump because he strongly appealed to people of traditional values, who are the people DC detests the most. Keep in mind that they took a dump on Mitt Romney as well. It wasn't as relentless as it was with Trump, but that's because he didn't appeal to people of traditional values as strongly as Trump did. If foreign policy was the overriding factor, they wouldn't have cared to see Romney win.
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I don't think Romney was any more conservative on social issues than Trump. Trump was more in line with Democrat Party, secular morality than any recent Republican candidate.

They called Bush a racist and Satan incarnate for example.
 
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