Post Right Wing looniness here

[Monahorns]

That was their opinion, nothing more. As Deez said they were wrong.

If they were so sure we wouldn't have planned Operation Downfall.

I never said these weren't opinions. The question has always been whose opinions were followed, what they were, and what was their motivation. I have demonstrated by the quotes of those who best understood the military situation that the motivation wasn't coming from the generals in charge of the armed forces. The motivation came from some other place.

 

[Monahorns]

From the same article Deez quoted from:

Prior to the atomic attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, elements existed within the Japanese government that were trying to find a way to end the war. In June and July 1945, Japan attempted to enlist the help of the Soviet Union to serve as an intermediary in negotiations. No direct communication occurred with the United States about peace talks, but American leaders knew of these maneuvers because the United States for a long time had been intercepting and decoding many internal Japanese diplomatic communications. From these intercepts, the United States learned that some within the Japanese government advocated outright surrender. A few diplomats overseas cabled home to urge just that.

Obviously the starting point of the negotiation was more than they could have reasonably expected to receive. They weren't going to be able to keep land they had won in the war. But look at the wording. Internally Japanese officials were discussing "outright surrender". The replies the US diplomats received is different than this statement about internal communications. You have to use your inference skills a bit here.

The one possible exception to this was the personal status of the emperor himself. Although the Allies had long been publicly demanding "unconditional surrender," in private there had been some discussion of exempting the emperor from war trials and allowing him to remain as ceremonial head of state.

This shows that the public statements and the private discussions were a bit different on both sides, as expected in a negotiations. You don't show your hand at the first. The other point is that Japan's understanding early on was that the emperor would not remain ceremonial head of state. It is at least one reason they didn't agree sooner. Remember the timeline of negotiation was thought to be November 1945. The atomics likely shortened the timeline. But the end result even without a ground invasion, according to military leaders, would have been similar.

 

[Horn6721]

And yet Japan did not surrender until after the bombs
Only a complete idiot would think there would not have been more American and Allied deaths between Aug and supposed Nov timeline
Why do you ignore that?

 

[Mr. Deez]

Obviously the starting point of the negotiation was more than they could have reasonably expected to receive. They weren't going to be able to keep land they had won in the war. But look at the wording. Internally Japanese officials were discussing "outright surrender". The replies the US diplomats received is different than this statement about internal communications. You have to use your inference skills a bit here.

Yes, but some nameless officials discussing surrender isn't surrender or even receptiveness by the people with authority, which was the imperial Supreme War Council. They had authority, and they were deadlocked until the Emperor himself broke the tie - after the atomic bombs were dropped.

This shows that the public statements and the private discussions were a bit different on both sides, as expected in a negotiations. You don't show your hand at the first. The other point is that Japan's understanding early on was that the emperor would not remain ceremonial head of state. It is at least one reason they didn't agree sooner. Remember the timeline of negotiation was thought to be November 1945. The atomics likely shortened the timeline. But the end result even without a ground invasion, according to military leaders, would have been similar.

They didn't agree sooner, because they were deadlocked - even after the bombs were dropped. 3 out of the 6 basically said, "screw them. They can nuke us until our whole country and race are dead."

 

[nashhorn]

Wow, you guys are so interesting. All I can contribute is my Dad said the bombs ended Japan’s resolve, but he was flying over Germany so what did he know. Sorry, not being trite, just sayin.

 

[Chop]

Yes, but some nameless officials discussing surrender isn't surrender or even receptiveness by the people with authority, which was the imperial Supreme War Council. They had authority, and they were deadlocked until the Emperor himself broke the tie - after the atomic bombs were dropped.



They didn't agree sooner, because they were deadlocked - even after the bombs were dropped. 3 out of the 6 basically said, "screw them. They can nuke us until our whole country and race are dead."

Showa held the authority in that place and time. He overruled everyone after he saw the devastation of Tokyo after the fire bombings.

 

[Chop]

And after the war was won, we had bigger fish to fry in the Pacific theatre than punishing our former enemies. MacArthur was very wise with Japan. Build them back up--on our side. Showa led them into our camp to stay, and they have prospered above and beyond all other Asian nations (even more than they had before the war). There's an electric synergy between our cultures, as different as they might be in some ways.

I haven't come anywhere remotely close to "seeing it all." But based on what I've seen, I want Japan on our side in the next big war. We make a very good team.

 

[Chop]

Princess Kako says welcome!

 

[Chop]

I would think that Monarchies almost automatically fall under Right Wing Looniness...

Monarchism is Classical Conservatism after all.

I posted somewhere on this website that the only genocides of the 20th Century led by conservative forces were those done by Leopold of Belgium and Showa of Japan. Classical conservatism anyways. What is now called "conservatism" in America looks kind of like "Classical Liberalism." These guys were monarchists. One of them had no limits on the numbers he would sacrifice and kill to make more $$$$ (Leopold). The other was the de-facto supposed man-god leader of a national religious cult at least 2,000 years old that held that their race descended from the supposed sun-goddess, and they were therefore superior to the rest of mankind and destined to rule all (Showa).

Today's Belgians are harmless chocolate makers, and beer brewers, and often-attractive blond females.

Today's Japanese are friendly allies, highly competent, very clean and orderly people who almost never commit crimes. And they're obsessed with us and U.S. culture.

 

[Chop]

I remember as early as the late 1990s they (the IJN's successors the Naval Self-Defense Forces or something...) started flying the old IJN spaghetti and meatball flags on their warships, and we were encouraging it. China had conniption fits; even S. Korea didn't care for it much.

If they're gonna be a dog in our pack, better be a dog with some balls.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I remember as early as the late 1990s they (the IJN's successors the Naval Self-Defense Forces or something...) started flying the old IJN spaghetti and meatball flags on their warships, and we were encouraging it. China had conniption fits; even S. Korea didn't care for it much.

If they're gonna be a dog in our pack, better be a dog with some balls.

That's interesting. I can't imagine the Deutsche Marine flying one of their old flags (like this) on their ships. If they did, people would literally go to jail.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Princess Kako says welcome!

Never been into Asian chicks, but she's pretty cute.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Wow, you guys are so interesting. All I can contribute is my Dad said the bombs ended Japan’s resolve, but he was flying over Germany so what did he know. Sorry, not being trite, just sayin.

I think there's a lot of truth to what he said. They had a similar effect to the strategic bombing of Germany. He would have seen what happened to places like Hamburg, Köln, and Berlin. It wasn't pretty.

Side note - do you know what base your dad flew from? I assume it was a RAF base.

 

[mchammer]

I would think that Monarchies almost automatically fall under Right Wing Looniness...

Monarchism is Classical Conservatism after all.

I posted somewhere on this website that the only genocides of the 20th Century led by conservative forces were those done by Leopold of Belgium and Showa of Japan. Classical conservatism anyways. What is now called "conservatism" in America looks kind of like "Classical Liberalism." These guys were monarchists. One of them had no limits on the numbers he would sacrifice and kill to make more $$$$ (Leopold). The other was the de-facto supposed man-god leader of a national religious cult at least 2,000 years old that held that their race descended from the supposed sun-goddess, and they were therefore superior to the rest of mankind and destined to rule all (Showa).

Today's Belgians are harmless chocolate makers, and beer brewers, and often-attractive blond females.

Today's Japanese are friendly allies, highly competent, very clean and orderly people who almost never commit crimes. And they're obsessed with us and U.S. culture.

Deez are you agreeing with the Belgian blondes (are we talking about beer or women?) or the other stuff chop said?

 

[Mr. Deez]

Deez are you agreeing with the Belgian blondes (are we talking about beer or women?) or the other stuff chop said?

I agree with his point - and about Belgian blondes - the beers and the women.

 

[mchammer]

 

[Sangre Naranjada]

Not obsessed with making babies so much as not slaughtering them once they have been made.

 

[ViperHorn]

Sorry to burst some bubbles, but in August of 1945, there was no Japanese Air Force. So, despite training Soldiers and Marines for a land invasion, the US would have started in the South and Tokyo regions and systematically leveled the country. That might have been more favorable to some than the two nukes, but in the end, destroying an entire country would have been worse.

 

[Horn6721]

Agree Vipe
And more Americans and Allies would have been killed.
Do not understand how those who think we shouldn't have used the bombs are ok with more Americans dying.
Have asked that question here but got no reply.

 

[Monahorns]

I answered that your base assumptions are false.

 

[huisache]

My dad (signal corps) was on Kyushu before the surrender and told me the Japanese were armed but starving when he got there

also said there was a horrendous typhoon on the date of the proposed invasion in November. It was a surprise because meteorology was primitive. We might have had a reprise Tsushima if we had sailed an invasion fleet into it

 

[Horn6721]

I answered that your base assumptions are false.

I consider my base assumptions to be that IF the war had continued to Nov 1945 American and Allied military would have died. What is false about that?

 

[Mr. Deez]

I consider my base assumptions to be that IF the war had continued to Nov 1945 American and Allied military would have died. What is false about that?

Remember? They were just about to surrender and be peaceful. We were just too impatient, unreasonable, and bloodthirsty.

 

[Garmel]

Remember? They were just about to surrender and be peaceful. We were just too impatient, unreasonable, and bloodthirsty.

That's right! Just like Israel!

 

[Chop]

Little known fact: the Japanese are not indigenous to Japan. The Yamato people crossed over from Korea and conquered the indigenous people of Japan--the Ainu--a mysterious race of tall hairy people. There's still several thousand of them in existence, living on reservations on the North Island of Hokkaido with high rates of alcoholism and unemployment. They're celebrated today by the Japanese as tough and noble warriors (but greatly outnumbered). And their crafts and designs are popular. So many comparisons with the US.

So I guess the Yamato of ancient times were the "right wing loonies", conquering the Ainu (who, of course, must have been peaceful and nature-loving ).

 

[bystander]

I don't know if this is a looney story, but have you heard about Kristi Noem publishing a book where she recounts shooting her 14 month old dog because it ruined a pheasant hunt? She said it was unpleasant and worth less than zero.

 

[Monahorns]

Remember? They were just about to surrender and be peaceful. We were just too impatient, unreasonable, and bloodthirsty.

You worked for Truman in the 40s?

 

[bystander]

Trump VP contender Kristi Noem writes of killing dog – and goat – in new book

 

[Monahorns]

Remember? They were just about to surrender and be peaceful. We were just too impatient, unreasonable, and bloodthirsty.

How dare I agree with Eisenhower, MacArthur, and Nimitz. Those unAmerican ********.

 

[Garmel]

As we've seen even today rank doesn't actually mean they possess outstanding judgment.