GT...disliking me is not a problem. but making regular comments about my faith or practice of my faith is. it reveals a more sinister side to your comments that go beyond disliking me. if i happened to dislike someone who was Mexican it would not require that i make racist comments about their being Mexican. you are being disingenuous.
North pole to melt this year?
- Thread starter hornpharmd
- Start date
Preliminary Unofficial Day 227 Race Report
2008 has a moderate day, losing ground wrt 2005, widening the gap wrt 2006.
8 15 2002 6.375000 -0.086094
8 15 2003 6.677656 -0.064219
8 14 2004 6.753906 -0.068907
8 15 2005 6.183125 -0.068594
8 15 2006 6.363438 -0.040625
8 15 2007 5.307344 -0.040469
8 14 2008 6.077344 -0.054531
2008 has a moderate day, losing ground wrt 2005, widening the gap wrt 2006.
8 15 2002 6.375000 -0.086094
8 15 2003 6.677656 -0.064219
8 14 2004 6.753906 -0.068907
8 15 2005 6.183125 -0.068594
8 15 2006 6.363438 -0.040625
8 15 2007 5.307344 -0.040469
8 14 2008 6.077344 -0.054531
VYFan,
It's amazing to me how sensitive Christians are about being disliked or discriminated against. Christians (at least nominal Christians) are a huge majority in the US and they hold almost all political power. This is, whether I like it or not, a Christian nation.
That said, I have no problem with Christians. I have been married to a Christian. I have raised three Christians. I love them dearly. I respect most of the Christians on this board. Theu, Battleship, and many others are open about their religion and I find their posts intelligent and interesting even when I disagree with them.
I do have a problem with those who insist that their holy book is the final arbiter of everything - history, culture, and science. It's not surprizing that the traits shared by many pseudoscience perveyers are that they're white, male, ultra-conservative, and fundamentalist Christian.
I consider moderate Christians to be my allies in opposition to folks like MOP. They are as concerned with such silliness as I am.
Please don't confuse my dislike of MOP and his BS with dislike of Christians. Please don't confuse my dislike of fundamentalism with dislike of Christianity or any religion. It may still mean I'm a bigot, but it's bigotry against a much smaller group than is encompassed by Christianity.
It's amazing to me how sensitive Christians are about being disliked or discriminated against. Christians (at least nominal Christians) are a huge majority in the US and they hold almost all political power. This is, whether I like it or not, a Christian nation.
That said, I have no problem with Christians. I have been married to a Christian. I have raised three Christians. I love them dearly. I respect most of the Christians on this board. Theu, Battleship, and many others are open about their religion and I find their posts intelligent and interesting even when I disagree with them.
I do have a problem with those who insist that their holy book is the final arbiter of everything - history, culture, and science. It's not surprizing that the traits shared by many pseudoscience perveyers are that they're white, male, ultra-conservative, and fundamentalist Christian.
I consider moderate Christians to be my allies in opposition to folks like MOP. They are as concerned with such silliness as I am.
Please don't confuse my dislike of MOP and his BS with dislike of Christians. Please don't confuse my dislike of fundamentalism with dislike of Christianity or any religion. It may still mean I'm a bigot, but it's bigotry against a much smaller group than is encompassed by Christianity.
VY Fan et al,As it stands now, 2008 is nearly 1.50 million square kilometers (580,000 square miles) behind the twenty year average. While it's not as bad as 2007, it's bad. Very bad.
The Link
This makes me wonder if you (and others) understand the significance of the summer ice melt in the North Pole for last three years? Because I don't think you do. If you did, you wouldn't be so confused or unconcerned about what's happening this year.
I had a feeling that when some scientists predicted that 2008 might be ice free in the Arctic, it would give people like you a chance to say, "See! Those scientists are wrong and it's not the bad."
However, I guess you've conveinently forgotten that three years ago the scientific consensus was that we were at least 50 years away from being ice free in the Arctic in the summer. Many even said at least 100 years. That's how dramatic the ice loss has been in the last three years.
So you guys/girls keep whistling past the graveyard. Meanwhile, my friend Al Bedo just keeps doing his job.
The Link
This makes me wonder if you (and others) understand the significance of the summer ice melt in the North Pole for last three years? Because I don't think you do. If you did, you wouldn't be so confused or unconcerned about what's happening this year.
I had a feeling that when some scientists predicted that 2008 might be ice free in the Arctic, it would give people like you a chance to say, "See! Those scientists are wrong and it's not the bad."
However, I guess you've conveinently forgotten that three years ago the scientific consensus was that we were at least 50 years away from being ice free in the Arctic in the summer. Many even said at least 100 years. That's how dramatic the ice loss has been in the last three years.
So you guys/girls keep whistling past the graveyard. Meanwhile, my friend Al Bedo just keeps doing his job.
Texoz...you make some very fair and excellent points. however, you have conveniently left out the many dire predictions that have been made which have NOT come to pass. the fact that james hansen predicted radical warming in 1988 when he first made his announcement and now, 20 years later, the earth is COOLER. i am concerned about the arctic ice melt. i want to see it get to more "average" ice levels, however, this is not a confirmation that it's melt off is caused by humans.
hornpharmd
5,000+ Posts
nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png
I posted a link a little earlier but didn't post this graph directly. This is updated daily and the 2008 Arctic Ice is decreasing rapidly and approaching the 2007 level. We'll have to see how far down that goes though it generally starts to level out this time of year.
I posted a link a little earlier but didn't post this graph directly. This is updated daily and the 2008 Arctic Ice is decreasing rapidly and approaching the 2007 level. We'll have to see how far down that goes though it generally starts to level out this time of year.
hornpharmd
5,000+ Posts
Great post TexOz.
And this prediction (north polce could melt this year) as mentioned by VYFan and yourself MOP was never meant to be an outright prediction. However it was in the realm of scientific possibility from scientists at National Snow and Ice Data Center predicting the possibility.
This possibility thankful did not come true this year. But again the intent of the thread is to show you that ice is not simply refreezing over in the winter (per your claim in previous thread) and that the overall arctic ice is declining and what remains is becoming thinner. This trend is happening way faster than initially predicted in earlier models and is a thing of concern.
Now whether that is man made, etc, caused by GW, etc, that is another topic. Whether Antarctic ice is on the rise or the overall earth is cooling is another topic. You just 1st have to agree that the arctic ice is declining and becoming thinner.
Climate change will happen. Drastic climate change that happens in such a short time period is a real thing of concern.
And this prediction (north polce could melt this year) as mentioned by VYFan and yourself MOP was never meant to be an outright prediction. However it was in the realm of scientific possibility from scientists at National Snow and Ice Data Center predicting the possibility.
This possibility thankful did not come true this year. But again the intent of the thread is to show you that ice is not simply refreezing over in the winter (per your claim in previous thread) and that the overall arctic ice is declining and what remains is becoming thinner. This trend is happening way faster than initially predicted in earlier models and is a thing of concern.
Now whether that is man made, etc, caused by GW, etc, that is another topic. Whether Antarctic ice is on the rise or the overall earth is cooling is another topic. You just 1st have to agree that the arctic ice is declining and becoming thinner.
Climate change will happen. Drastic climate change that happens in such a short time period is a real thing of concern.
yeah....they were talking about that on one of the sites i read. evidently the 2 leading reporting agencies are off by 30% from one another. you chose the low one, the other one is showing 30% more ice than that one. not sure which one is correct, but i thought i would mention it.
hornpharmd, the problem with that reasoning is that everyone knows that shocking news sells newspapers. so now you are excusing hyped articles as long as they are only "possible" but shouldn't there be some sort of a standard? it seems that the chance that the arctic was going to be ice free this summer was slim to nil, so what business did ANYONE have printing such an absurd prediction?
it will be very interesting to see what the ice does over the winter. if it regains and then some and the antarctic is still increasing as it has been, i still am not too worried. in fact, we are within about 10% of the 30 year average globally....not terribly alarming frankly.
it will be very interesting to see what the ice does over the winter. if it regains and then some and the antarctic is still increasing as it has been, i still am not too worried. in fact, we are within about 10% of the 30 year average globally....not terribly alarming frankly.
for instance....here is the Antarctic levels according to cryosphere today.
ice extent in the south pole
notice how it is ahead of last year's record pace for ice build up.
ice extent in the south pole
notice how it is ahead of last year's record pace for ice build up.
Mop, you need to do a little research about the albedo effect and oceanography.
When you do, you'll understand that it is highly unlikely that the Arctic will return to 20-year average, and it is very likely that we'll see an ice free summer in our lifetime. Then, we'll see the winter ice deteriorate. That will happen slower, but it will happen.
The North & South Poles are the air conditioners for the planet. What do you think's going to happen as we lose the North Pole's cooling effect, which is almost inevitable at this point?
When you do, you'll understand that it is highly unlikely that the Arctic will return to 20-year average, and it is very likely that we'll see an ice free summer in our lifetime. Then, we'll see the winter ice deteriorate. That will happen slower, but it will happen.
The North & South Poles are the air conditioners for the planet. What do you think's going to happen as we lose the North Pole's cooling effect, which is almost inevitable at this point?
Quick points:
1. I am not claiming to be an expert in this area.
2. I am not using this overly-dire prediction (of a possibility) that did not come true as some proof that other predictions also won't.
3. My main point has ever been the lack of kindness or common respect in the exchange by some. Many GW issues are based on assumptions that could be very easily made differently, with obviously very different conclusions. Even pointing out that conclusions are based upon debatable assumptions seems to draw extreme personal venom.
4. This thread has been educational for me, not just for what's happening this one summer, but for the longer trends, too, and for seeing the process for following up on the claims seen in some headlines. I am not just looking for evidence to support an opinion I already have.
1. I am not claiming to be an expert in this area.
2. I am not using this overly-dire prediction (of a possibility) that did not come true as some proof that other predictions also won't.
3. My main point has ever been the lack of kindness or common respect in the exchange by some. Many GW issues are based on assumptions that could be very easily made differently, with obviously very different conclusions. Even pointing out that conclusions are based upon debatable assumptions seems to draw extreme personal venom.
4. This thread has been educational for me, not just for what's happening this one summer, but for the longer trends, too, and for seeing the process for following up on the claims seen in some headlines. I am not just looking for evidence to support an opinion I already have.
kilimanjaro, though used in "Inconvenient Truth" is most likely due to OTHER issues, not Global Warming:
Kilimanjaro
Kilimanjaro
B
bronco
Guest
interesting study released by Mexican University suggests we have 60 to 80 years of cooling ahead. not sure what to make of it:
Mexican University proclaims cooling is on the way.
Mexican University proclaims cooling is on the way.
hornpharmd
5,000+ Posts
well....i think you are spinning things more negatively than they are and i am probably spinning them more positively than they are. at any rate, 2007 is still over 600,000 square kilometers ahead of last year and the Antarctica is ahead of last year's record for ice build up........all in all, it is within 10% of "average" over the past 30 years. still not terribly concerned. now with today's update:
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