Lent

CrazyFoo,
I appreaciate your honesty, but your history is a bit off, to say the least.. First off, the word in Isaiah, means young woman or virgin. They are not really two separate words in Hebrews. The LXX, or Septuigent uses the term Virgin. The LXX, is the Jewish translation of the TNK, or Jewish Scriptures into Greek.
Also, Christians don't believe that God had sex with a woman. And to say that the Roman's believed that gods had sex with women all the time is something that nearly made me laugh out loud. I think you mean the Greeks. The Roman gods are just the pantheon of Greek gods, renamed by the Romans. The Romans were great engineers, but they lack quite a bit when it came to religious belief, and art in general.
Also, there is a great reason why the New Testament and earliest Christian writings about Jesus are in Greek, not Hebrew. It was the common language of the day. In fact, the type of Greek spoken at the time was called 'Koine' Greek, which means 'common.' It was not unlike English today. If one was to write something that was meant to be read across national borders, or across the Roman Empire as was the case, it have been in Greek.
The earliest writings in the NT were written by Paul, who was a Jew, but from present day Turkey. He was well educated in Hebrew and Judaism, but he was also a Roman citizen. He would have been fluent in both, but would have addressed audiences in Greek. Also, remember that all of the epistles, or letters he wrote which we have in our NT today, are to places that are either in present day Greece, or Turkey. They would have been the common language of the cities to which they were written.
 
Yes Coel. I think so. I think Jesus was a great man. I believe he may even have claimed to be the rightful King (sign said "King of Jews" not "God"), but I do not believe he ever claimed he was God. He spoke of God as his "Father" just like we all do. He cried out "Why have you forsaken me?" on the cross. He was blessed by a dove after baptism (perhaps this is a fourth God that God likes to take form in). The Devil seemingly offers Jesus an earthly kingdom as if the Devil doesn't know Jesus is God. The duality (or trinity) of the supposed to never-change monotheistic Jewish God has divided Christian religions since the beginning.

Isn't it confusing how the real claims of Jesus being God come from the book of John (the newest book)? Isn't it also odd that John has a more Greek narrative? Isn't it odd that in the New Testament, the Romans are just heroes? Pontius Pilate was a heartless killer of hundreds of men - a cruel enforcer of the law, but the bible makes him look like a kindly leader simply bowing to the demands of the local Jewish populous.

This, of course, neglects all the inconsistent stories in the gospels (such as the 2 versions of Judas’ death). Now, creative people can make new stories that combine the multiple versions, but I see this as mistakes God insured were left in the bible. Did Jesus fulfill all the prophecies? No, but we do have the 2nd coming for that. Jewish tradition does not allow for that. The Messianic age has very specific rules so the people will know the real Messiah from a false one. The Messiah is NOT supposed to be God. The first Messiah was David. Solomon is also called Messiah in the bible. It means "Anointed One". This is a King - son of David.

The Romans knew the society was in trouble. They needed something to control the people. Who better than a pacifist who urges you to suffer in the world and listen unquestioningly to your church leaders so you can have paradise in the next life? They had multiple Gods so the extra Jesus God was no problem, but ooo those 10 commandments (especially the first important one). There was a fatal flaw that needed correction. Couldn't re-write the entire bible, so let's add one (John) and change parts of the other - let's make sure to destroy any of the older versions of Jesus' life that may contradict what we create in our secret council in Nicaea.

So Jesus pops up, and we are to think God has changed his mind about all those bothersome rules Jews have to follow. God got that part wrong, so Jesus is here to correct some of those rules. And SURPRISE!! God is actually a trinity of demi-gods that all combine to be like one God in ways that you can’t understand, so God waited until the Jesus part came down to tell you. You may have liked some warning about the human God part, but God thinks it's funner to just spring it on you. Top on that - God doesnt' want his chosen people to believe in Jesus. God changed his mind about them too - they are going to burn because they read the prophecies WAY to literally. How better to reward the people that have obeyed God's commands for thousands of years?

I ask you. Would God protect his true religion? How many different Christian religions are there? Do they disagree on the fundamentals of Christianity – the nature of Christ? Mormons? Catholics? Jehovah's Witness?

How many different Jewish religions are there? Honestly, I don't know. I think there is only one united Jewish religion.
 
CrazyFoo,
I keep getting dragged into discussions of apologetics when that is not what I intended this thread to be. I will say a couple of things. You said some of the disciples were against Paul. I would probably say it was more correct that Paul was against them, since he was attempting to (and did) kill them.
Also, you stated that everyone my entire life has told me one thing about Jesus... that is not true. I actually have studied many religions and didn't even start to follow Jesus at all until my late teens. Then when I went to college, I 'checked' out and studied most major religions in the world and I can tell you where I think all the others fall short.
CrazyFoo, as an aside we have a guy in our town here who grew up Jewish, who is still VERY Jewish. He is also very convinced that Jesus is the Messiah. Of course he has his point of view/agenda too.
 
Crazy Foo',

Just wondering if you can elaborate a bit more on the mechanics of this conspiracy.
 
And it may be that I am interested to see how he connects the "addition" of the Gospel of John to the Council at Nicaea. It is understood that the Gospel of John was written toward the end of the 1st century, and that it was recommended by Irenaeus of Lyons as one of four authoritative gospels that Christians should rely on. His recommendation happened ca. 180 AD. If my math is correct, that's 145 years prior to the Council at Nicaea.

If the conspiracy that CrazyFoo' believes in is based on the "addition" of the Gospel of John, he'll have to deal with the fact that it was already, in practice, a part of mainstream Christian life in the Roman world.

I am also interested to see what he meant in calling it the "secret" Council of Nicaea. All 1800 bishops in the Mediterranean basin were invited to the meeting (and over 300 attended at various stages), which was held at Nicaea due to its central location; it was within easy reach of the bishops in Syria, Asia Minor, and Egypt (where the main alternative to orthodoxy, Arianism, was strongest). Not only that, but the bishops had their travel and lodging expenses paid by the government.

If they wanted to ram something through, why not simply hold the meeting on a remote, secluded island like Malta, and limit attendance by making the invitations selective to like-minded bishops?

How exactly was the Council of Nicaea a secret?
 
The pre-existence of john's book (and its timing) seems extraneous to considerations of nicaea, as does quibbling about it being “secret” or open.

The real issue, if i'm reading it right, is whether nicaea was a watershed event (there doesn't seem to be a lot of argument about that) and the what and why of its happening.

If the jesuits weren't bullshitting me, the basic thing that happened was that constantine apparently was looking for a state religion for his empire, which he had famously re-integrated after quite a spell of civil warring, moved the hq from rome in the west to byzantium in the east, and only the year before had finally knocked off the eastern honcho (whose name I forget, but he was a persecuter of the christians, and they apparently were happy to have constantine supplant him). In that pursuit he gathered some number (from near a hundred to around three hundred) of “bishops” of various flavors of christianity and put them in Nicaea (perhaps not “secret” but certainly out of the way) to work to come up with a unified message, or dogma, or whatever you want to call it, for a universal christian church to become the official state religion. They apparently kicked out various heretics who refused to adhere to the new, improved story – including the arians – some, literally – mainly for the heresy of denying the divinity of jesus; they incorporated a statement of divinity-in-trinity along with a basic story, as the nicene creed, which of course, became the unified message.

As far as juggling the books, they threw out the ones denying the divinity, the begetting (as opposed to creation) of jesus, and other heresies, and cleaned up the minor heresies from some of the ones that were kept. I don't recall the jesuits claiming that they went so far as to organize them or produce a single volume of “approved” books, although I think that was done later in the fourth century by another council, back in the big city instead of out in the sticks at nicaea.

The jesuits made much of the appellation “catholic” to the new, improved church, although at the time it apparently was used only in its literal meaning as being “universal”, i.e. as the “one true and catholic” church, approved by the emperor his own self. I believe the original story included the divinity or semi-divinity of the emperor, but that was later expunged and denied (just as arius was dehereticized and then rehereticized).

That, in a nutshell, is my understanding of nicaea. There are great numbers of arguments about the who, what, why, wherefore of it – two of the “fathers” nearly came to blows while discussing it – so it seems to be likely that it will continue being disputed at least until the wayback machine finally starts working, after which we may all be retroactive jews or mithraists or whatever...

Organized religions, including all of the “people of the book” - that is, judaism, christianity, and islam - appear to this very day to be very much in use as one of the control mechanisms that keep the general populace in line. Including other “countries”, as our Grand Police of the Known Universe seem to be proving over there, in pipelineistan, even as you read this.
 
Whatever.

Tell me more about the conspiracy. Who were the conspirators, and how did they go about planning this conspiracy.

Or is that beyond the language to explain as well?
 
No, the one CrazyFoo' was beginning to explain, about the Gospel of John being "added" in order to save the Roman Empire.
 
It has been a while since I have posted on this thread, since it went way off topic. I did want to say that our church collected enough money that we will be drilling at least 4 water wells in Sudan!! I am very proud of all those who gave so generously. This means that about 8,000 people will now have clean drinking water for about 20 years, and who knows how many lives will be saved and changed because of these wells. I am very excited for the positive impact that our church was able to make.
 
THEU, that is amazing! Congratulations to your church family. You did good!!!.
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