Jerusalem

[Monahorns]

Third, we need to ponder what a Hussein-driven Iraq would look like today. He was a pretty bad hombre - definitely not a friend to the West. Would be have played ball with or harbored Islamic radicals (like Al Qaeda or ISIS leaders) had he remained in power? Maybe, maybe not. He was a state sponsor of terrorism, so I don't think we can rule it out.

That is supposedly why we went there in the first place. But Al Qaeda and ISIS existed in Iraq even with Hussein removed so where is the upside to spending millions of $s, US soldiers' lives, and even thousands innocent Iraqi civilians?

I don't see an argument at all. Maybe if Hussein was in power, Iraq would be an epicenter of violence and terrorist activity? You mean like RIGHT NOW?

 

[Monahorns]

The war also had a major impact on US domestic policy. Without the War, Democrats probably don't take control of Congress in 2006. That means the Bush second term domestic agenda doesn't die. It means entitlement reform likely passes. By today, we'd be trillions ahead if it had. Furthermore, immigration reform likely would have passed, and of course, that probably would have meant no Trump.

So basically the US is a much better place without the war and Iraq is better off too? At least thousands of Iraqi citizens would still be alive. The ancient Iraqi Christian population would still be in relative stability. No war sounds like a win-win.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Let me stop you there. ISIS does not exist without US involvement in Iraq. The Iraq War did not necessitate the creation of ISIS. ISIS was created by the Obama administration by giving weapons to Al Qaeda in NW Iraq after we had defeated their insurgency war. Nothing like ISIS would have sprouted up in Egypt, Yemen, or Libya. ISIS was told by the US to attack Syria. The purpose was built around weakening Assad as a way of weakening Iran after the US had just strengthened Iran by overthrowing Hussein and then Al Qaeda. That left an Iran friendly Shia power in Iraq. The Syrian Civil War is complicated only because US involvement is complicated. We aid ISIS and then work with the Kurds to fight ISIS. The US made it a mess.

What you're missing is that these guys simply exploited a situation. It wasn't the only option on the menu. It wouldn't necessarily have taken the same form that it did, but it could very easily and very plausibly could have happened through some other means.

That is supposedly why we went there in the first place. But Al Qaeda and ISIS existed in Iraq even with Hussein removed so where is the upside to spending millions of $s, US soldiers' lives, and even thousands innocent Iraqi civilians?

I didn't say there was an upside. Like I said, the war was a mistake. I'm not defending the war.

So basically the US is a much better place without the war and Iraq is better off too? At least thousands of Iraqi citizens would still be alive. The ancient Iraqi Christian population would still be in relative stability. No war sounds like a win-win.

It would have been. Again, I'm not defending the war.

 

[nashhorn]

No war sounds like a win-win.

Well there you go.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Let me stop you there. ISIS does not exist without US involvement in Iraq. The Iraq War did not necessitate the creation of ISIS. ISIS was created by the Obama administration by giving weapons to Al Qaeda in NW Iraq after we had defeated their insurgency war. Nothing like ISIS would have sprouted up in Egypt, Yemen, or Libya. ISIS was told by the US to attack Syria. The purpose was built around weakening Assad as a way of weakening Iran after the US had just strengthened Iran by overthrowing Hussein and then Al Qaeda. That left an Iran friendly Shia power in Iraq. The Syrian Civil War is complicated only because US involvement is complicated. We aid ISIS and then work with the Kurds to fight ISIS. The US made it a mess.

Yeah. Some other unrelated violence could happen in the Middle East, but that is ignoring and even minimizing the US's leadership in causing huge problems in Syria.

Link? I'm of the belief that ISIS was born in the prisons in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Hussein. It found roots amidst the suddenly displaced Bathists who went from ruling the country to being discriminated against by the majority Sunnis. We didn't arm them but given their former places of power they had easy access to weapons and training to use them. The religious fundamentalism was simply the conduit to coalescing this downtrodden group of tribesman.

 

[Seattle Husker]

What you're missing is that these guys simply exploited a situation.

This. Tge fundamentalists exploited the Bathists.

 

[Monahorns]

What you're missing is that these guys simply exploited a situation. It wasn't the only option on the menu. It wouldn't necessarily have taken the same form that it did, but it could very easily and very plausibly could have happened through some other means.

Anything is possible. I am not going to build my opinion on that and the US government shouldn't build policy on that. ISIS were the same people the US defeated as Al Qaeda in Iraq. Could they have regrouped at some point, some where else to cause problems? Sure. But that doesn't justify giving weapons to them and point them at Assad. That is a non sequitur.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Anything is possible. I am not going to build my opinion on that and the US government shouldn't build policy on that. ISIS were the same people the US defeated as Al Qaeda in Iraq. Could they have regrouped at some point, some where else to cause problems? Sure. But that doesn't justify giving weapons to them and point them at Assad. That is a non sequitur.

Again, you're arguing the issue as though I'm defending the Iraq War. I'm not.

 

[Monahorns]

Link? I'm of the belief that ISIS was born in the prisons in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Hussein. It found roots amidst the suddenly displaced Bathists who went from ruling the country to being discriminated against by the majority Sunnis. We didn't arm them but given their former places of power they had easy access to weapons and training to use them. The religious fundamentalism was simply the conduit to coalescing this downtrodden group of tribesman.

Ep. 1469 Scott Horton on Iran, Syria, and His Critics | Tom Woods

This is the first step down the rabbit hole. Scott Horton is an Austinite who follows this stuff for a living and researches it all very thoroughly. I already know how you will respond to what he has to say. But he is the most believable I am hearing out there.

ISIS was born out of Al Qaeda. Not necessarily Baathists. Baathists were Sunni, so maybe. But the US used Sunni tribal leaders to defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq because they were seen as foreigners. Sunni Iraqi tribes did not like Al Qaeda. They were murdered indiscriminately much like they did in Syria.

No. Obama armed them. Of course it was the military who did it. The same military community who howls every time Trump says he wants to leave. This is their baby.

I know this is a hard pill to swallow. But there are traitors in the US military and the Obama administration including Barack, because they armed our enemies, the same group of people who executed 911 and attacked Americans every chance they had. They became allies of the enemies of the American people.

Let me say this another way. Assad never attacked American civilians. Al Qaeda attacked American civilians. The US military gave weapons to Al Qaeda. They then rebranded themselves as ISIS.

Tge fundamentalists exploited the Bathists.

Actually, the US government exploited the fundamentalists.

 

[Seattle Husker]

The Washington Post: Netanyahu announces he can’t form a government, opening door for Israeli president to tap political rival to build a coalition

 

[mchammer]

The Washington Post: Netanyahu announces he can’t form a government, opening door for Israeli president to tap political rival to build a coalition

SH, what does your post have to do with this thread? Please explain yourself. /sarc

 

[Seattle Husker]

SH, what does your post have to do with this thread? Please explain yourself. /sarc

Recognizing the '/s', it relates directly to the initial conversation between Sharrk and I.

Perhaps, but that's my expectation.

You gave a good recap of the situation. did you read this article?

I think Trump's revealed plan will be enough to get Netanyahu the 61 votes.

I could be wrong. We'll soon see, eh?

Netanyahu's "pre-indictment corruption hearing" has started.

@ShAArk92 I can't imagine anything gets done in Israel (including forming a government) until Netanyahu can avoid indictment.

 

[ShAArk92]

Netanyahu announces he can’t form a government,

still a bit early isn't it?

Thought he had until the middle of November?

 

[ShAArk92]

from the article:

"And Turkey launched an offensive against Kurdish fighters in northern Syria after President Trump said he was withdrawing U.S. troops, raising concerns in Israel about the value of American security guarantees."

Hey guess what ... that's GONNA happen. It's gonna be Israel against the world real soon ... and that reality will be realized ... in a veritable FLASH. Today ... USA is a strong supporter of Israel ... tomorrow ... it'll be an alliance with Russia against Israel.

 

[Seattle Husker]

still a bit early isn't it?

Thought he had until the middle of November?

He had 6-8 weeks and is giving up after only a few. Not sure of his angle unless he's trying to show the opposition can't form a government either thus wants to race to a 3rd vote.

I'm still convinced nothing happens until Netanyahu's legal jeopardy is decided, at least nothing favorable for Bibbi.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Today ... USA is a strong supporter of Israel ... tomorrow ... it'll be an alliance with Rus

That's a bold prediction. I'm no fan of Israel as I think we let them drive our foreign policy but can't imagine jumping into bed WITH Russia against them.

Is this being driven by your biblical beliefs?

 

[ShAArk92]

He had 6-8 weeks and is giving up after only a few. Not sure of his angle unless he's trying to show the opposition can't form a government either thus wants to race to a 3rd vote.

I'm still convinced nothing happens until Netanyahu's legal jeopardy is decided, at least nothing favorable for Bibbi.

right ... that's why I wondered ... but as you mention, this may be a tactic.

Like be on defense if you win the coin toss for overtime.

I'm not married to Bibi ... and I could be completely wrong about his being the last Prime Minister ...

That's a bold prediction. I'm no fan of Israel as I think we let them drive our foreign policy but can't imagine jumping into bed WITH Russia against them.

Is this being driven by your biblical beliefs?

Your article alludes to the chink in the US/Israel relationship armor with the simple redeployment of a US force which is less than a battalion ... NE Syria/Turkey border.

My beliefs in the Word of God is instrumental to everything in my life ... but that doesn't invalidate. On the contrary, The Holy Bible has been a MAJOR confirmation.

It's exceedingly clear Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchanezzer's dream of the statue ... the two legs represent a split Rome ... East/West. You're a smart guy and can prolly determine which one is which.

A word to the wise. Thanks for asking.

 

[ShAArk92]

Your article alludes to the chink in the US/Israel relationship armor with the simple redeployment of a US force which is less than a battalion ... NE Syria/Turkey border.

... and the relations with Israel weren't exactly "enhanced" during Obama's tenure.

So ... perhaps it's not as radical a prediction as one might otherwise believe.

 

[Seattle Husker]

... and the relations with Israel weren't exactly "enhanced" during Obama's tenure.

So ... perhaps it's not as radical a prediction as one might otherwise believe.

Just to be clear, it's the support of Russia against Israel I'm guffawing about. Then again, I'm also guffawing at Trump's decisions in Syria which are certainly in Russia's interest.

The US also joined with Russia in vetoing a Security Council proposal chastizing Turkey. Never thought that the US would side with our enemies over our allies but that's happening with more regularity these days.

 

[ShAArk92]

enemies over our allies but that's happening with more regularity these days.

who are our allies/enemies?

That's what I'm saying ... it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen fast .. and I think it's gonna happen relatively soon.

 

[Seattle Husker]

who are our allies/enemies?

That's what I'm saying ... it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen fast .. and I think it's gonna happen relatively soon.

Enemies are much easier to spot than most. Russia is definitely on the list for most of us except for one currently powerful person.

 

[ShAArk92]

except for one currently powerful person.

LOL ... well if you're anything, you're consistent.

tell that "easy ID" thing to the fellas in 'Nam ... or even more recently ... 'Stan ... Iraq.

Just watched Mission of Honor (IIRC) ... a Brit produced film about The Battle of Britain and the Poles who were formed into their own RAF squadron. They identified one of their pilots as having trouble seeing the Germans as the enemy after he saw the pilot in a Messerschmidt .... looked very much like himself.

This should underscore the fact we all have a common enemy ... he is not of flesh/blood but he's about to become a clearer manifestation if we'll pay attention.

 

[Seattle Husker]

I'm still convinced nothing happens until Netanyahu's legal jeopardy is decided, at least nothing favorable for Bibbi.

@ShAArk92 Netanyahu was just indicted for corruption. I don't suspect this development is conducive to your prediction.

 

[ShAArk92]

I don't suspect this development is conducive to your prediction.

you do or do not?

Thanks for the ping, SH. I've been a bit out of the loop the last couple of weeks ... just doing flybys at HornFans.

Interesting timing, though. I just saw this flash across the DebKa news alert. Their AG has cast quite a large net, indicting folks of whom I've never heard (which isn't earthshattering, the number of Israelis I do not know is quite substantial) ... but anyhow.

yeah ... my prediction ... included Trump's plan for the Two-State solution.

Do you think that's happening as the west watches this farce of an impeachment inquiry? Can hardly get the weather out of the news for all the dissecting how this will play to impeach 45 and send to the Senate. (I do not expect that to happen, btw, unless Pelosi has promised McConnell some really good stuff!)

Also, since that first post on BN's effort, he surrendered the campaign and "punted" ... now we are a couple of weeks into the 6 for Gantz.

I'll admit I'm not following Gantz' effort as closely as I was BN's ... but that seems to be a tactic akin to electing to play defense in the first OT ... except he got to play offense a few downs, THEN punt. So, IIRC, we are about 2 weeks into that 6 week deal ... so call it, now ... Mid December before Gantz has to "shoot/score" or relinquish the baton to BN again, which makes end of January/first of Feb the deadline ... almost a full year since the election?

 

[ShAArk92]

... the indictment isn't "good" for the prediction, no ... but it doesn't invalidate it either.

We'll see. Thanks for keeping an eye.

 

[nashhorn]

unless Pelosi has promised McConnell some really good stuff!)

And that’s how this works, and everything in Washington.

 

[ShAArk92]

Thanks to @Seattle Husker ...

It occurred to me ... doubtful there's coincidence in the simultaneous investigation of corruption in the leaders of BOTH the USA and Israel. That this is a tactic to remove them from office to prevent realization of their purpose. And their alleged misdeeds are effectively unrelated ... e.g. they're not involved in the same alleged misdeed.

Meanwhile, Iran, Turkey ... and Russia. greater aggression is immanent. Possibly MUCH greater.

As SH worded it ... this "tends to be conducive" to the trend which is realizing 2500 year old prophesy.

 

[ShAArk92]

I PROMISE I was unaware of this letter when I wrote the preceding post ...

Take a peek at this letter to the UN from Congress. Written as the impeachment inquiries were "getting returns" on its start.

I have a couple thoughts. What are yours?

 

[Seattle Husker]

Did y'all read where Israel has finally said "enough" on the riots which occur on Temple Mount?

There's about to be a change in the administration of access there.

Simultaneously ... Trump's "part one" "deal of the century" to recognize and establish the Palestinian economy ... 25 June.

The man God put into my life about 6 months ago, Dr. Robert Mawire ... right after Netanyahu's election, he stated this summer ... specifically late June/early July ... the peace deal would become reality.

I've been intrigued by this man's message and his book "Chronogram Code." A MAJOR confirmation of what he's been preaching if this deal is actually closed ... WHEN he said it would be.

'Israel will no longer tolerate Arab riots on Temple Mount'

@ShAArk92 You lost me a bit with your 2 recent posts so lets return to your original starter post on thus thread that prompted my disagreement. I've bolded the specific passage I responded to.

To summarize my initial reply, nothing the Trump administration was doing moved Israel and Palestine closer to a Peace Deal. Not the Palestinian Economic program that was void of Palestinians, not the movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem or the recent reversal in US Policy to recognize Israel's right to steal Palestinian land and call it legal, against all International laws.

Hindsight so far has is on my side on spades. The letter you posted shows concern that the conflict could escalate. Think that gets anyone closer to a peace deal?

It appears we both agree a 2-state solution is the only workable solution. There is zero chance that the Palestinians peacefully or even by force agree to any 1-sided plan in which Israel gets everything it wants and Palestine simply grins and nods "Thank You" which is what Trump, Kushner and the indicted Bibby have been pushing. It's no secret that Hezbollah has spent decades arming itself for such a moment.

 

[Seattle Husker]

It occurred to me ... doubtful there's coincidence in the simultaneous investigation of corruption in the leaders of BOTH the USA and Israel. That this is a tactic to remove them from office to prevent realization of their purpose. And their alleged misdeeds are effectively unrelated ... e.g. they're not involved in the same alleged misdeed.

You are correct that they are completely unrelated. Bibby's alleged corruption is much more serious and likely to result in his removal from office, if he's not pushed out before the trial. You now have members of his own party ready to run against him.

To be sure, the "peace" plan was DOA before Bibby's legal challenges.