Jerusalem

[mchammer]

If any of you have been to Israel you'll know it's a nation of contradictions.

Having been to both Tel Aviv and Jerusalem I'm hard pressed to find totally different cities within just an hour of each other.

Tel Aviv is San Francisco. Secular, liberal, almost no religious presence, big tech companies everywhere, major commerce center, right on the beach. Although obviously strongly Jewish, you will see very few people wearing yarmulkes there. It's Jewish only by ethnicity, not by religion.

If Tel Aviv is the brain of Israel, then Jerusalem is the heart and unlike any city I've ever been to. There's almost zero modern presence to the city at all, every building looks hundreds of years old. Hell it's routine to walk thru the Old City and see remnants of Roman arches from 2500 years ago.

Knowing the hatred between the Palestinians and Jews I was shocked at how peaceful the city actually was. You have Arabs and Jews getting along for the most part. I was expecting daily terrorist suicide strikes and missile launches but saw none of that. There were Israeli security checkpoints every 1/2 mile or so inside the Old City, but the guards (some of whom were girls who looked no older than 20) seemed relaxed and wore smiles every time I saw them.

I'm pretty sure there will never be any kind of lasting peace arrangement but I encourage every one of you to visit at least once, especially if you are a Christian. The sites around the country require lots of walking and it would be difficult to do as an elderly person so go now while you are young and can walk for miles without assistance. You'll regret if you wait until you are older.

I have a coworker from Jerusalem (Christian Palestinian). He says the issue with Jerusalem is that once you move away, they take away your residency card. It’s the Israeli gov attempt to limit Palestinians on their side of the fence. Not exactly fair, but understandable.

 

[Horn6721]

I did not know there were residency cards but if you move away why would you need a residency card?

 

[mchammer]

I did not know there were residency cards but if you move away why would you need a residency card?

Just one part of the process to remove Palestinians from Jerusalem. Makes them feel unwanted, which they are.

 

[Horn6721]

But they have residency cards if they live there?
And only lose them if they move?

 

[mchammer]

But they have residency cards if they live there?
And only lose them if they move?

Not sure the rules but imagine being at risk of losing it if you go away for college, a temp job, etc. Just relaying what I was told.

 

[Mr. Deez]

I have a coworker from Jerusalem (Christian Palestinian).

A Palestinian Christian? That's like finding a diamond on the street. Not many of those. What I think is remarkable is that anytime I've met a Christian from the Middle Eastern Christian, they are very quick to tell me.

For example I took my car to an auto mechanic a few years ago (in Germany). He looked Middle Eastern. When I approached him, he reached out his hand and said with a very thick accent, "Hello, my name is (forgot his name). I'm from Iraq, but I'm not a Muslim (which he pronounced as "Moose-leem"). I'm a Chaldean Christian."

I said, "that's cool. Can you fix my car?"

 

[mchammer]

A Palestinian Christian? That's like finding a diamond on the street. Not many of those. What I think is remarkable is that anytime I've met a Christian from the Middle Eastern Christian, they are very quick to tell me.

For example I took my car to an auto mechanic a few years ago (in Germany). He looked Middle Eastern. When I approached him, he reached out his hand and said with a very thick accent, "Hello, my name is (forgot his name). I'm from Iraq, but I'm not a Muslim (which he pronounced as "Moose-leem"). I'm a Chaldean Christian."

I said, "that's cool. Can you fix my car?"

From past conversations as best as I can tell:
- born in the Old City
- went to school at German Lutheran school, learned German
- raised in an Orthodox Church, likely Syrian
- went to St Edwards in austin
- grad school at UT

 

[AustinHorn24]

A Palestinian Christian? That's like finding a diamond on the street. Not many of those. What I think is remarkable is that anytime I've met a Christian from the Middle Eastern Christian, they are very quick to tell me.

There's more than you would think. Still obviously a small percentage of the total but I saw quite a few of them during my trip.

At the Jordan River, there were several groups of Palestinian Christians being baptized. At Bethelehem (which is in the West Bank) the mayor is a Christian despite the fact that 95% of the population is Muslim.

We ventured thru the West Bank area which is split into 3 zones (A, B, C)

A zones are completely under Palestinian Authority control. B zones are hybrid -- economic activity/local ordinance run by Palestinians with combined Israeli/Palestinian security control. C zones are under complete authority of the Israelis.

The Palestinian Christians are very anti-Israel as the muslims are, however as their numbers are far fewer their voice gets lost in the noise between Jews and Muslims.

The Palestinians are in the wrong for the most part obviously due to their propensity towards terrorism. However they do have some legitimate gripes -- even as a citizen of Israel they need special passes just to move between the West Bank areas and between the West Bank and Israel proper. For religious holidays/festivals Palestinians are blocked from attending certain areas; for example Palestinian Christians are mostly forbidden from visiting Bethlehem for Christmas.

 

[Monahorns]

I would be interested to know what % of Palestinians are Christian. Libertarians and Covenentalists use them as a reason to be anti-Zionist.

I would also be interested to know what % of Palestinian Christians are against Israel because if they aren't they get murdered. The rest probably don't like Israel simply because Israel makes their lives harder. Kind of why I am not a huge fan of the police. They never really help me, just cause me problems.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Netanyahu's "pre-indictment corruption hearing" has started.

@ShAArk92 I can't imagine anything gets done in Israel (including forming a government) until Netanyahu can avoid indictment.

 

[ShAArk92]

I can't imagine anything

I can't either, SH ... doesn't mean it won't happen. Let's stay atop of this ... 4-6 weeks ... end of Oct ... Mid November. My fav source is Debka ... but virtualjerusalem is good too.

 

[LongestHorn]

A Palestinian Christian? That's like finding a diamond on the street. Not many of those.

Palestinian Christian assassinated RFK.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Palestinian Christian assassinated RFK.

This guy is a Palestinian Christian.

 

[Monahorns]

Really? Deez, I actually read an article from Benny's nephew stating he is renouncing his word-of-faith charismatic positions. Sounded like he was going evangelical, orthodox. That would be really cool.

 

[LongestHorn]

Really cool why? More money for Benny with the Evangelical orthodox suckers?

 

[Chop]

I’ve known a few Lebanese Christians. For each of them, it seemed that their Arab side trumped their Christian side when it came to their feelings towards Israel and Jews in general. Nothing overtly vicious, just a general disdain and distrust.

 

[Chop]

Also another thing you’ll never hear from the mainstream Western media:

One of the biggest defenders of the Middle Eastern Christians who has undoubtedly prevented the genocide of Christians: none other than Syrian president Bashar al Assad.

 

[Seattle Husker]

Also another thing you’ll never hear from the mainstream Western media:

One of the biggest defenders of the Middle Eastern Christians who has undoubtedly prevented the genocide of Christians: none other than Syrian president Bashar al Assad.

Assad's initial "crime" was allying with Russia/Iran. From that point on the US did everything possible to promote Arab Spring there. Syria was more "Western" than most of the Arab countries. I also think if Assad wasn't so hostile to Israel we may not have supported the insurgents to such a great degree.

 

[Monahorns]

SH, you are correct. But the Russians weren't involved until Obama armed Al-Qaeda in Iraq to attack Assad.

His motivations are exactly as you say though. Once Iraq had removed the Baathists, the majority Shia population of Iraq was allied with Iran. So in order to try to reduce Iran's influence in the region he (the US military) wanted to take down Assad. It is really an awful mess.

 

[Monahorns]

Really cool why? More money for Benny with the Evangelical orthodox suckers?

It would be really cool for a false teacher doomed to hell to repent of his heresy and sin and be saved.

 

[Seattle Husker]

SH, you are correct. But the Russians weren't involved until Obama armed Al-Qaeda in Iraq to attack Assad.

His motivations are exactly as you say though. Once Iraq had removed the Baathists, the majority Shia population of Iraq was allied with Iran. So in order to try to reduce Iran's influence in the region he (the US military) wanted to take down Assad. It is really an awful mess.

The removal of Sadam Hussein is the "gift" that keeps on giving. That was the most colossal foreign policy decision, potentially in the history of our Republic. ******* Neocons!

I've said it before here but I still believe that decision was the beginning of the end of the US holding the mantle as the singular world power. The fallen dominoes from that act are immeasurable.

 

[Monahorns]

It has been bad. I approved of it at the time, but I was wrong. It was good to hunt down Al Qaeda and kill Bin Laden. Should have left Iraq alone.

 

[Seattle Husker]

It has been bad. I approved of it at the time, but I was wrong. It was good to hunt down Al Qaeda and kill Bin Laden. Should have left Iraq alone.

The worst part was that the Iraq War delayed the capture of Bin Laden. We pulled our Middle Eastern Special Forces battalion out of Afghanistan to fight in Iraq and replaced them with the Latin American batallion. Spanish speaking Special Forces in Afghanistan? Brilliant!

Sadam Hussein was a neutered dog at that point with no air capabilities to speak of. It was beyond dumb to gin up the people for a war on Iraq while we were fighting our real enemy, Al Queda, in Afghanistan. Dick Cheney and his ilk did more harm to the future of this country than anyone before or since can dream of, and that includes Trump to date.

 

[Monahorns]

SH, that is bad. Even worse was the fact that the violence involved hundreds of thousands of civilians. I think the majority of the population wanted Sadaam gone, but they didn't want the US Army controlling their country either.

Then that conflict facilitated the violence and murder of ISIS.

 

[LongestHorn]

lulz

 

[Monahorns]

Yeah. That is my point. If he no longer is involved in THAT. Good. His act was such a farce. Hope it's done.

 

[Mr. Deez]

Really? Deez, I actually read an article from Benny's nephew stating he is renouncing his word-of-faith charismatic positions. Sounded like he was going evangelical, orthodox. That would be really cool.

I googled it, and apparently he has. Has he renounced beating people with his jacket? Of that, I'm not sure.

 

[Monahorns]

You are right to be skeptical. I am too, but heaven rejoices when 1 lost sheep is found.

 

[Mr. Deez]

SH, that is bad. Even worse was the fact that the violence involved hundreds of thousands of civilians. I think the majority of,the population wanted Sadaam gone, but they didn't want the US Army controlling their country either.

Then that conflict facilitated the violence and murder of ISIS.

You guys are both correct that the Iraq War was a bad move, especially in retrospect. However, I'm more skeptical of the idea that it's driving most of our current problems in the Middle East. That leaves out the possibility of other bad outcomes that reasonably could have occurred had we not gone. To be clear, these other bad outcomes don't justify the war. However, they are worth considering when evaluating the scope of the harm done by the war.

Let's consider a few things that I think we all recognize. First, the Middle East has been a powder keg literally for thousands of years. It didn't start with the Iraq War and wouldn't have ended without it. It didn't even start with Islamic conquest. It's just a part of the world that virtually has never known lasting peace.

Second, the theory that the Iraq War led to ISIS is true, but it doesn't mean that ISIS or something like it wouldn't have occurred without the Iraq War. ISIS grew out of Al Qaeda in Iraq, but its leadership was from all over the Middle East. They exploited the situation in Iraq, but had that option not been available, they would have had a lot of other options. They could have gone to Egypt, Yemen, or Libya. Hell, they still could have gone to Syria. Keep in mind that the Syrian Civil War has many sides. That's what makes it such a mess. The ISIS angle is part of it, but it's not the only issue.

Third, we need to ponder what a Hussein-driven Iraq would look like today. He was a pretty bad hombre - definitely not a friend to the West. Would be have played ball with or harbored Islamic radicals (like Al Qaeda or ISIS leaders) had he remained in power? Maybe, maybe not. He was a state sponsor of terrorism, so I don't think we can rule it out.

Another thing to remember, Hussein wouldn't be a spring chicken if still living. He'd be well into his 80s - easily old enough to die or lose power. What would happen if and when that occurred? Most likely, chaos.

I'm not suggesting that the war didn't cause major problems. It definitely did, but the more time passes, the more attenuated that contention gets.

Frankly, I think it damaged us politically more than anything else. When we claim that a bad apple is dangerous, the rest of the world will be far less deferential to us. Furthermore, the West is "war weary" because of the war. That's why I roll my eyes when I hear guys like Trump claim they could have gotten a much better deal from Iran. Iran was in the driver's seat in that deal, because they knew that the West didn't have the stomach to fight them even if they got a nuclear weapon. That factor was present largely because of the Iraq War.

The war also had a major impact on US domestic policy. Without the War, Democrats probably don't take control of Congress in 2006. That means the Bush second term domestic agenda doesn't die. It means entitlement reform likely passes. By today, we'd be trillions ahead if it had. Furthermore, immigration reform likely would have passed, and of course, that probably would have meant no Trump.

 

[Monahorns]

Second, the theory that the Iraq War led to ISIS is true, but it doesn't mean that ISIS or something like it wouldn't have occurred without the Iraq War. ISIS grew out of Al Qaeda in Iraq, but its leadership was from all over the Middle East. They exploited the situation in Iraq, but had that option not been available, they would have had a lot of other options. They could have gone to Egypt, Yemen, or Libya. Hell, they still could have gone to Syria. Keep in mind that the Syrian Civil War has many sides. That's what makes it such a mess. The ISIS angle is part of it, but it's not the only issue.

Let me stop you there. ISIS does not exist without US involvement in Iraq. The Iraq War did not necessitate the creation of ISIS. ISIS was created by the Obama administration by giving weapons to Al Qaeda in NW Iraq after we had defeated their insurgency war. Nothing like ISIS would have sprouted up in Egypt, Yemen, or Libya. ISIS was told by the US to attack Syria. The purpose was built around weakening Assad as a way of weakening Iran after the US had just strengthened Iran by overthrowing Hussein and then Al Qaeda. That left an Iran friendly Shia power in Iraq. The Syrian Civil War is complicated only because US involvement is complicated. We aid ISIS and then work with the Kurds to fight ISIS. The US made it a mess.

Yeah. Some other unrelated violence could happen in the Middle East, but that is ignoring and even minimizing the US's leadership in causing huge problems in Syria.