Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies
- Thread starter Chop
- Start date
It might be necessary to kill enough so that the rest recognize the fault in their previous beliefs.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
And Hornfans' belief is to obliterate Gaza.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Explain to me how I am wrong.
SN said this below. The number is unbounded and could go to 100% if Gazans don't change their mind.
Earlier I asked 6721 how he would want the military to do if he was a hostage. Here is what he said.
One of the options was to obliterate (i.e. bomb) Gaza. I followed up if he really thought that would lead to his rescue, and he didn't answer.
mchammer, posted a twee that said 2/3 of Palestinians don't want a state and support what Hamas is doing. I agree, that is a horrible stance to take. Suicidal even. However, I asked what kind of action do these facts justify? Killing all of them? He didn't answer, but SN did with what I have already quoted above. Deez writes consistently about how you either kill a bunch of civilians or you lose the war or get killed yourself. Many of you hit the Agree or Winner button.
Sounds like "obliterate" to me.
What else am I supposed to believe? My stance has always been that Hamas needs to be held accountable, their capabilities need to be constrained, and that Israel should work towards removing the narrative of grievance that Hamas uses.
That is how you fight asymmetrical warfare. If you kill 30,000-40,000 people, you actually play into Hamas' hands and help them recruit more. In fact the more Gazans you kill the more recruits join Hamas and the more you solidify your resolve. Maybe if they killed 95% of Gazans the remaining 5% would agree to mind their own business. I don't know. The Palestinians should adopt a fully non-violent approach to airing their grievances. At this point it couldn't get any worse for them.
The "so we should just kill them all" remark is just to be inflammatory. But here's the bottom line. If an enemy is intent upon murdering and kidnapping my country's citizens as part of a broader plan to eliminate my country, I would do whatever it took to destroy that threat. If the people of that event country change their beliefs and behaviour, then great. That's why I wouldn't be fire-bombing Tokyo in 2024. But if they keep coming and keep at it, then yes, I would kill them all if that's what it took. I would not let my country or its people be destroyed just to keep from killing people.
But it's a dumb question because of course it won't require killing every Palestinian to end this problem. The incentives simply need to be shifted, and of course, Westerners doing Hamas's bidding only makes that harder to do and ultimately leads to more Palestinian deaths.
But it's a dumb question because of course it won't require killing every Palestinian to end this problem. The incentives simply need to be shifted, and of course, Westerners doing Hamas's bidding only makes that harder to do and ultimately leads to more Palestinian deaths.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I am trying to use the language used by others. That is why I specifically used "obliterate", since SN used that as a description of Palestinians' opinion of Israel. I didn't disagree with this statement either.
I don't really disagree with you here either. If "my people" were threatened, I would have the same opinion. But in none of the conflicts around the world are "my people" threatened so I have the ability to have a different perspective. In fact, "my people" are being threatened at home by very wicked people, and no one in power is doing anything about it. I don't think mass killing is required in order to protect Americans either, just some right wingers with clear vision and a backbone.
The other part of the discussion is that Hamas is not a credible threat to take over Israel. It took a massive security mistake just to allow 10/7 to happen of which willful inaction was a factor. As long as the IDF does their job, Israeli citizens will be fine.
IDF knew of Hamas's plan to kidnap 250 before October 7 attack - report
That was exactly my own point. The incentives must be changed. You do that by changing the relationship between Israel and Gaza. Israel must prove to Gazans that they care about their lives. Gazans must prove to Israel that they care about their lives. Not that Americans can force them to change, but part of the equation will be a reasonable third party arbitrator. Right now I don't see one in existence.
I also agree that Hamas isn't helping the situation. It is clear that Hamas provokes Israel to destroy Gaza in order to win a propaganda battle. It has lead to thousands of deaths. If Gazans declared that they will never support violence ever again, I don't think the situation would be worse. They are already on the path to the worst possible outcome because of Hamas' violence.
But they don't.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Go argue with Deez then.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
This is what my comment is in reference to.
Yes, I know you're not an Israeli, so it's no skin off your nose if Hamas murders a bunch of Jews.
Not a credible threat now, but they're obviously a credible threat to kill and kidnap significant numbers of Israeli civilians. And long term, they are an existential threat to Israel's existence.
Israel gave Gazans a significant amount of sovereignty and expelled their own people from Gaza. In response, Gaza elected Hamas to run it. That's a giant "f-you" to Israel, and they followed that gesture up with terror attacks on Israeli civilians. When sporadic killings turned into 10/7, Israel decided it had enough. The incentives will change when Gazans fear the IDF more than they love seeing Jews killed, and of course, there needs to be a modern-day denazification of Gaza before any kind of sovereignty in the area can be restored.
It’s not Israel, so no. But Arabs in Israel have the same rights as Jews.
You are right.
What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel
What to Know About the Arab Citizens of Israel
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
No. They don't actually. They have some rights but not the same level.
One small examples is that no Jewish person can rent any of their land to a non-Jew in Israel. If they do there are huge fines that are made to bankrupt the person.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
The Arabs in Israel are Palestinians or came from Gaza or the West Bank. One more bit of evidence that NOT ALL Palestinians are deplorables who aren't accepted into any other countries.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I could just as easily and correctly say "Yes, I know you're not a Palestinian, so it's no skin of your nose if Israel murders a bunch of Palestinians."
And Israel is obviously a credible threat to kill tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians. And RIGHT NOW, they are an existential threat to Gaza's existence.
Also, Hamas will never be a credible existential threat to Israel. Never. If Isreal's military would done their and simply responded to the reports they had, 10/7 wouldn't have even got off the ground.
This statement is almost as true as a Michael Moore documentary.
You sound like the people who think you're a hypocrite if you support the death penalty but oppose abortion. The circumstances surrounding the killing is irrelevant. To me, it's relevant. Hamas actually murdered innocent Jews. IDF is murdering Gazans like Doris Miller murdered a Japanese pilot.
You're crazy if you think they'll never be a credible threat. And if the IDF had gone into Gaza before 10/7 to stop Hamas, you would have crap your pants about how they attacked Gaza unprovoked.
Didn't know you were such a Michael Moore fan.
Mr D
Your point about what would have happened if the IDF had gone into Gaza before October 7 is telling We know exactly the reaction and outrage that would have resulted.
I have not seen the hate Israel love Hamas crowd condemn the rape and murder of innocent Israelis. Interesting that.
Your point about what would have happened if the IDF had gone into Gaza before October 7 is telling We know exactly the reaction and outrage that would have resulted.
I have not seen the hate Israel love Hamas crowd condemn the rape and murder of innocent Israelis. Interesting that.
To be fair, Monahorns has condemned them.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Sounds like the only difference is that I don't consider all Gazans as guilty, but you do. I don't consider all of them innocent either, but know Gazans aren't a monolith. But it takes me back to my original point.
Hornfans believes Israel should obliterate Gaza. This discussion has made it more apparent.
Now you just insult me. I'm crazy? Whatever.
I always support prosecuting criminals, even organized criminals like Hamas. Your statement about me is a complete fabrication. You have a bad habit of saying what I would have done in an alternate universe. Let's deal with the one we live in.
Didn't know you were such a Michael Moore fan.
I'm not. I just see that you did the same thing he does but with a lot less polish and production budget.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
6721, Deez's statement is a figment of his own imagination. Saying you know exactly how other people would react in a hypothetical is hubristic.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Some of the leftists may have indeed done what Deez described. The Left uses anything they can move their politics forward, so is within their character.
But it is better to use language that is measured. It doesn't allow us on Hornfans to make as good of a rebuttal, but it is a sign of reasonableness and humility. I'm sure I cross those lines on Hornfans as well, but I do try to practice what I preach.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Didn't know you were such a Michael Moore fan.
To be more fair, I will say that I don't disagree with the statements you used taken by themselves. However, I think the way you linked those things together color the history in a less than accurate fashion. Part of linking them together is determining which facts about the issue to use and which ones to leave out. It makes for a pithy statement and an attractive rebuttal, but it doesn't represent well what is going on, or assigning proper blame over the whole set of events.
That's a diversion and a strawman. Nobody thinks all Gazans are guilty. The issue is whom should be blamed for their deaths, and that boils down to whom one considers to be the aggressor. To me, the ones that kidnapped and murdered a bunch of civilians and then hides behind women and children to maximize their deaths for propaganda reasons are the bad apples and the ones I blame. And I consider the Westerners who empower that trick to drive a political agenda to also be bad apples.
You can take it as an insult if you want to, and I'm not trying to hurt anybody's feelings. But yes, it's crazy talk.
LOL. For starters, you're the one bringing up an alternate universe by Monday morning quarterbacking the IDF and saying what they should have done given what they knew. Second, I base what I think you'd do in alternate situations based on what you say in real situations - like anyone else would.
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