Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies

Crockett said:
The Biblical injunction ""an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" could be read as a call for proprtionate response rather than a call to extract limitless vengance. The Israelies are in a tough situation and the asymetrical tactics of Hamas make civilian casualties inevitable. But my conscience instructs that calls for restraint in destruction of non-combatants are appropriate.
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Crockett, every Western nation used to follow the concept of proportional punishment both for crime and war. But as the West has gone Left, our society has shifted to total war and disproportionate punishment. It's unethical and unChristian.
 
Crockett said:
It was not policy to shoot escaping hostages, but shirtless unarmed men carrying white flags and shouting in Hebrew were gunned down. One of the families expressed forgiveness to the soldiers...two others not so much.
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At Guadalcanal I understand there were friendly fire deaths, killing Americans. We should have simply stopped right then and there. After all, Japan didn't really mean to harm Americans after pearl harbor, right?

And American paratroopers died on 6/5, 6/6 in France as part of the d day invasion. Because of this error, our soldiers being killed because of a lack of execution, we should have simply turned those ships around and head back to England. Terrible error. Should have let France and the rest of Europe rot in nazi occupation, right??. Not to mention those pesky jews that were exterminated.

Got it.
 
Chop said:
Good folks often help their friends in need.
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What has any other country ever done for the USA?

What country has sent money to us? What country has sent us weapons? What country has help defend our border? What country has helped us process criminals? What country has started a war on our behalf or helped us resolve one we got into?

Please explain who you are talking about and explain they have done for us.
 
Chop said:
Biden will order the US Military to build a make shift port in Gaza, at which ships can dock and offload truck fulls of food and relief supplies. The early reports make it sound like Israel is ok with this and will even help us coordinate to make it happen. As far as I know, the Sea Bees still “have it” and will get this big job done in short order.

The lingering concern is that Hamas will find a way to obtain and control the distribution of food and supplies.
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The Pier:

It's going forward with the joint support of Israel and the US (and maybe other Allies). Food and aid to innocent civilians is good.

Overarching concerns:

1. Hamas will take control of the food/supplies delivered and leverage it to maintain power.

2. If our Sailors, Soldiers, and Marines get on the ground to help deliver and distribute aid, guard the pier and trucks, etc., this could easily turn into "mission creep." We could easily find ourselves with more and more Soldiers/Sailors/Marines deployed on the ground in Gaza and then we soon become part of the fight. There is much danger this occurs. As much as the UN generally sucks, this part of it might be better for them to do.

Navy sending sailors and ships to help build Gaza aid pier
 
Chop said:
The eye for an eye probably is a merciful call for proportionality.

The Israelites have been relatively merciful in their response. If some neighboring country like Mexico or Cuba was lobbing 1000s of missiles at our cities, they'd probably be molten radioactive glass by now. We've done it before.
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1000 killed versus 40,000 killed and massive property destroyed. That isn't relative mercy. Israel can't nuke Gaza because that would spread radioactivity all over Israel.
 
Horn2RunAgain said:
At Guadalcanal I understand there were friendly fire deaths, killing Americans. We should have simply stopped right then and there. After all, Japan didn't really mean to harm Americans after pearl harbor, right?

And American paratroopers died on 6/5, 6/6 in France as part of the d day invasion. Because of this error, our soldiers being killed because of a lack of execution, we should have simply turned those ships around and head back to England. Terrible error. Should have let France and the rest of Europe rot in nazi occupation, right??. Not to mention those pesky jews that were exterminated.

Got it.
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You are talking about accidents and mistakes. Crockett and I are talking about strategy and purposeful action.

Also, you are talking about a war between 2 states that have their own army. Gaza is a situation with 1 state and 1 army. The other side has a terrorist organization with a very low level of capability.

What violence has Hamas committed in the year 2024? Zero.
 
Chop said:
The Pier:

It's going forward with the joint support of Israel and the US (and maybe other Allies). Food and aid to innocent civilians is good.

Overarching concerns:

1. Hamas will take control of the food/supplies delivered and leverage it to maintain power.

2. If our Sailors, Soldiers, and Marines get on the ground to help deliver and distribute aid, guard the pier and trucks, etc., this could easily turn into "mission creep." We could easily find ourselves with more and more Soldiers/Sailors/Marines deployed on the ground in Gaza and then we soon become part of the fight. There is much danger this occurs. As much as the UN generally sucks, this part of it might be better for them to do.

Navy sending sailors and ships to help build Gaza aid pier
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I'm also against the US government giving my money to Palestinians. We are purposefully getting involved in someone else's ugly business. We need to stay out. Let charitable organizations send food to them. Food and aid for innocent civilians is good. It should be funded by voluntary donations from other civilians.
 
Monahorns said:
What has any other country ever done for the USA?
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Either you're kidding, being sarcastic, or lacking in historical knowledge.

France helped us immensely at our founding. True, they were doing so to check England, but still they really helped us out. Australia helped us out big time during WW2, as did the Philippines. It was mutually beneficial.

During the Civil War, England aided the United States. Thank Prince Albert for that, as Queen Victoria initially favored the Confederates.

Australia and some others helped us out in the Korean War. Thailand (both their official government, and some private Thai armies and militias) helped us out during and after the Vietnam War. Japan now helps us out to this very day and we help them. England has loaned money to us. And now many countries buy our T-bills, in effect loaning money to us.
 
Chop said:
Either you're kidding, being sarcastic, or lacking in historical knowledge.

France helped us immensely at our founding. True, they were doing so to check England, but still they really helped us out. Australia helped us out big time during WW2, as did the Philippines. It was mutually beneficial.

During the Civil War, England aided the United States. Thank Prince Albert for that, as Queen Victoria initially favored the Confederates.

Australia and some others helped us out in the Korean War. Thailand (both their official government, and some private Thai armies and militias) helped us out during and after the Vietnam War. Japan now helps us out to this very day and we help them. England has loaned money to us. And now many countries buy our T-bills, in effect loaning money to us.
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I'm asking for critical thought. That is all. Good points.

Just so we are clear on facts, England helped the CSA in the Civil War. Russia provided significant help to the Union. They patrolled coasts and kept Confederates from attacking from the sea. It was a big help. So Russia is our friend.

One of the countries buying T-bills is China. They own a huge amount of the Federal government's debt. China is our friend.
 
Monahorns said:
Just so we are clear on facts, England helped the CSA in the Civil War. Russia provided significant help to the Union. They patrolled coasts and kept Confederates from attacking from the sea. It was a big help. So Russia is our friend.
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Wait a minute, Russia patrolled our coasts in the Civil War? That's news to me. Any cites for that?
 
The only thing I've found is that Russian ships visited the ports of New York and San Francisco. Nothing about them patrolling our coasts or enforcing the blockade.
 
The USN blockaded the Southern ports effectively, thought there were some daring blockade runners. Attempts to invade the (far) West were rebuffed at the Red River campaign (battle of Mansfield, LA), at Sabine Pass (Dick Dowling and the Irish gunners), and at Galveston.

Here's what a lot of history misses: The (far) West was still able to raise $ and arms for the Confederacy as follows. William Marsh Rice (whose fortune founded Rice Institute/Rice U.) was a huge cotton trader and railroader on the Upper Texas Gulf Coast around Houston/Brazoria/Ft Bend and surrounding counties. Richard King owned the King Ranch and had some steamboats of his own. Rice would broker and trade the cotton, sending it South by rail and overland, and also by barge/steamship along the bays to King who would take it to the border, cross the Rio Grande and sell it to Mexican and English factors in Matamoros. The Union blockaded the Confederate ports, but they couldn't touch ships sailing to and from Mexican ports. That's how the CSA got at least some of the cotton out to international markets. And Rice and King multiplied their respective fortunes.
 
Monahorns said:
This was the first result from my search. I didn't say they supported the blockade. They patrolled several areas to prevent attack.

What role did Russia play in the U.S. Civil War?
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That's a fun historical fact.

Although, there's no way the South could have mounted an amphibeous or naval attack on New York, Philadelphia, Boston, etc. Confederate ships were blockaded in port by the Union, and there weren't that many of them to begin with. A few blockade runners were able to slip by, but by and large, the CSA's navy was stuck in port for the whole war and there wasn't that much of it. One interesting attempt to change all that was the ironclad battle of the Monitor vs the Virginia.
 
Russia was also on our side in WW1 and WW2. After they took the Eastern block countries (against their will) and tried to turn the world communist, we broke up with them.
 
Chop said:
Russia was also on our side in WW1 and WW2. After they took the Eastern block countries (against their will) and tried to turn the world communist, we broke up with them.
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That shows how wrong the US was in those conflicts. You said Russia did something against there own will, which is an impossibility. Humans do things to accomplish their own interests. They worked for their own interests.

The US government now pursues the most communistic, fascistic, and totalitarian policy in the world today.

You can't honestly say that the US government broke up communism when they are enacting communism in our own country. If you think that m your are a Biden supporter. If you don't think that you haven't communicate that clearly and more of libertarian like me. But it is clear you aren't a libertarian, which means you support the Biden administration more than you oppose it.
 
Chop said:
Russia was also on our side in WW1 and WW2. After they took the Eastern block countries (against their will) and tried to turn the world communist, we broke up with them.
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You mean the US gave the USSR billions of dollars to continue their communist system.

I also observe that you still confuse Russia with the USSR. Those are two different things. You need to think about how they are different because they are VERY different.
 
I think IDF has something to learn regarding non-combatants. If they had been shirtl
Horn2RunAgain said:
At Guadalcanal I understand there were friendly fire deaths, killing Americans. We should have simply stopped right then and there. After all, Japan didn't really mean to harm Americans after pearl harbor, right?

And American paratroopers died on 6/5, 6/6 in France as part of the d day invasion. Because of this error, our soldiers being killed because of a lack of execution, we should have simply turned those ships around and head back to England. Terrible error. Should have let France and the rest of Europe rot in nazi occupation, right??. Not to mention those pesky jews that were exterminated.

Got it.
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Did I say something about turning around? Toxic hostility around here makes discourse impossible.
 
Crockett said:
I think IDF has something to learn regarding non-combatants. If they had been shirtl

Did I say something about turning around? Toxic hostility around here makes discourse impossible.
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Toxic hostility? I typed with a smile on my face. It's in the way you received it, and I can't help you there

Still smiling politely here
 
Monahorns said:
What has any other country ever done for the USA?

What country has sent money to us? What country has sent us weapons? What country has help defend our border? What country has helped us process criminals? What country has started a war on our behalf or helped us resolve one we got into?

Please explain who you are talking about and explain they have done for us.
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The French won our revolution for us

look it up
 
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