Always have and always will.
Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies
- Thread starter Chop
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Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
They drew borders on a map that didn't match tribal regions so you had tribes vying for control of the new state that magically came into existence after WW1. Sykes-Pikot and Balfour and all that. Also, the European countries took control of former Ottoman areas and used divide and conquer strategies to keep power. It's the same strategy states always use, give the minority group political power over the majority group. Then the minority group has to stay allied with the European country or they will be overthrown and killed.
Europe also authorized European Jews to move into Palestine/Israel which disrupted the equilibrium of the region. There hadn't been Muslim/Jewish/Christian conflict in the region for at least a couple hundred years under the Ottomans. Anytime you encourage another group to migrate into an area there will be conflict. Add into that the strange feudal-like land ownership system in the Ottoman Empire. Many of the families who had lived on a patch of land for hundreds of years suddenly found that new owners had purchased their farms and houses and wanted them out. If you want to know the detail listen to the martyrmade podcast's 30 hours on the issue. It isn't biased one way or another just describes the events and the perspectives of Arabs and Jews as it happened.
As if the tribes wouldn’t continue fighting if the lines were drawn differently. SMH.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
They weren't before WW1. That's all I can say. I'm sure they had in the past. But there was an equilibrium that had settled in and would have remained for a while longer if no disruption was added. But it was disrupted after WW1.
They saw what happened to Harvard and Penn.
This is a very precise and a good overview of what Fromkin's book describes in more detail. The period of 1914 - 1922.
The British were the catalyst and created the blueprint of the plan to divide up the Middle East after WW1. Britain, France, Russia. America had a seat at the table post war, but the Brits largely called the shots.
The plan was to bring some stability to the whole Middle East region post Ottoman & war while benefitting the colonial powers.
The result set up the entire region for endless wars and terrorism.
David Fromkin did 10 years of research to pull all the facts together and write the book. Fascinating read: A Peace to End All Peace.
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Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
The Ottoman Empire was falling apart eventually. The different regions were gaining sovereignty over their own affairs naturally as this occurred. But yes,, it would have been better if Europe would have stayed out of it. There would have been conflict then too. But it would have allowed the people to come to their own terms with their neighbors and the conflict probably would have resolved more quickly and with less blood shed. But that wasn't allowed to happen so who knows.
The UK told the Arabs if they allied with them they would allow Arab nations to have their own sovereignty. The UK went back on that after WW1. Part of the conflict was over broken promises.
The Brits (and French) divided up the Ottoman Empire to fit their colonist desires. We now know that failed miserably, but no lessons were learned as the Brits, Americans, and Russians destroyed Eastern Europe with that crazy carve-up in 1945.
Fast forward to current times, the carve-up of the Ottoman Empire would have happened as soon as the Middle East became energy-rich. Not every country in the Middle East is energy-rich.
Fast forward to current times, the carve-up of the Ottoman Empire would have happened as soon as the Middle East became energy-rich. Not every country in the Middle East is energy-rich.
There have been serious geopolitical miscalculations since WW1, but the foundation of the problem is that certain cultures have been failing for the last 400 years.
There was a time, not long ago, from between 1780 to 1930, if you wanted to know most science, one needed to learn German. Because most of the science was coming from the Germanic people.
Today the United State’s dominance in Technology, Pharmaceutical innovation, and most of the sciences is another example. Everybody is speaking English.
The cultures of the Middle East, outside of Israel do not innovate. For whatever reason the Arab culture has failed in that regard.
So there is little wonder why they hate the West and Israel. The Sunnis and the Shia have despised each other for hundreds of years. They are close cousins. It’s not much a stretch to assume that they hate Christains even more.
When the Muslims subjugated Spain…they were in control hundreds of years. They had a three step approach to dealing with the local Christian population. First Convert. If that didn’t work then Enslave. Finally if that failed then Execute. All Muslim scholars agree that those instructions are in the Koran and still hold today.
Every important diplomatic agreement that they make, like with the Russians and Chinese, will be broken.
A local liberal called me a racist for that opinion.
There was a time, not long ago, from between 1780 to 1930, if you wanted to know most science, one needed to learn German. Because most of the science was coming from the Germanic people.
Today the United State’s dominance in Technology, Pharmaceutical innovation, and most of the sciences is another example. Everybody is speaking English.
The cultures of the Middle East, outside of Israel do not innovate. For whatever reason the Arab culture has failed in that regard.
So there is little wonder why they hate the West and Israel. The Sunnis and the Shia have despised each other for hundreds of years. They are close cousins. It’s not much a stretch to assume that they hate Christains even more.
When the Muslims subjugated Spain…they were in control hundreds of years. They had a three step approach to dealing with the local Christian population. First Convert. If that didn’t work then Enslave. Finally if that failed then Execute. All Muslim scholars agree that those instructions are in the Koran and still hold today.
Every important diplomatic agreement that they make, like with the Russians and Chinese, will be broken.
A local liberal called me a racist for that opinion.
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Apparently, many Shiites celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. They think of Jesus as a major prophet.
Lurking G_dless atheists can yuk it up all they want and put me in their looney bins, but here is what I've heard is happening, on a large scale, here and now, in Iran and among Iranians/Persians in the U.S.: many are having visions and dreams where Jesus comes to them in person. They typically convert to Christianity--often in secret. We're not talking about 100s or 1,000s, but 10,000s or even 100,000s, and it's apparently growing.
Ironic. Muslims are not a race, but, like Christians, can be from any race.
Apparently, Islamic canon sets forth that Muhammed was a fair skinned White man with red hair and a red beard. (no kidding)
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I've heard the same thing about dreams and visions but in Jordan.
That's a compliment, in case you were wondering.
Taas Saada (former PLO sniper and Palestinian driver for Arafat), is reporting that multitudes of people are now (just very recently) having visions of Jesus in Gaza and dropping Islam for Christianity. Per Saada, 200 Gazans recently had the same vision of Jesus and converted all at once to Christianity in mass. A revival is not coming, it’s already here.
Saada is also reporting that Qatar seeks to govern Gaza, locally on the ground, along with a team consisting of Saudi, UAE, and maybe some others. Everybody understands that the Gaza people will not be “dumped” on any other nation. Qatar is taking the lead and in near constant communication with Israel. One possibility that’s already being tossed around is a confederation of Israel + Gaza. Hamas will not govern Gaza. The Qatar/Saudi/UAE police will be on the ground for policing and locally governing at first. Long term = a Federation of Israel and Palestine. Ultimately ruled by Israel, but locally governed. In this Federation, the Jews cannot be outnumbered at the vote. The Gazans will control their own local affairs, with oversight by the Qatar/Saudi/UAE team for a while, possibly for a long while. Israel will have the only army and will govern foreign affairs. Hamas will be eliminated.
Saada also said Qatar has expressed that it wants to create a new Singapore out of Gaza and will pour billions of $$$$ into it. It might be a good time to buy some real estate in Gaza as soon as the war ends. As citizens of the Federation of Israel and Palestine, Israeli nationals would be able to buy and sell real estate in Gaza. Obviously, nationals of Qatar,Saudi Arabia, and the other partners on the ground will be eligible to buy and sell real estate in the new rebuilt Gaza. Folks, if this happens, plenty of people will get very rich.
Saada is also reporting that Qatar seeks to govern Gaza, locally on the ground, along with a team consisting of Saudi, UAE, and maybe some others. Everybody understands that the Gaza people will not be “dumped” on any other nation. Qatar is taking the lead and in near constant communication with Israel. One possibility that’s already being tossed around is a confederation of Israel + Gaza. Hamas will not govern Gaza. The Qatar/Saudi/UAE police will be on the ground for policing and locally governing at first. Long term = a Federation of Israel and Palestine. Ultimately ruled by Israel, but locally governed. In this Federation, the Jews cannot be outnumbered at the vote. The Gazans will control their own local affairs, with oversight by the Qatar/Saudi/UAE team for a while, possibly for a long while. Israel will have the only army and will govern foreign affairs. Hamas will be eliminated.
Saada also said Qatar has expressed that it wants to create a new Singapore out of Gaza and will pour billions of $$$$ into it. It might be a good time to buy some real estate in Gaza as soon as the war ends. As citizens of the Federation of Israel and Palestine, Israeli nationals would be able to buy and sell real estate in Gaza. Obviously, nationals of Qatar,Saudi Arabia, and the other partners on the ground will be eligible to buy and sell real estate in the new rebuilt Gaza. Folks, if this happens, plenty of people will get very rich.
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Look at photos of Tokyo after WWII. Now look at Tokyo. That’s what some of the wealthiest men in the Middle East are contemplating for Gaza.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
That's great news! I see lots of conversions in the libertarian/dissident right wing media world. It's a big white pill to me.
My question to you is, do these conversions change your attitude about Israel bombing Gaza and trying to move the Palestinians out?
This makes me wonder if this was the point all along. Make rich and powerful people in the world even richer and more powerful. It also shows that "ethnic cleansing" is happening. These "great real estate deals" are on top of poor people's houses and apartments who magically won't be there anymore. The previous says the Gazans won't be moved out into another nation. But that doesn't make sense. Either they are moving the Gazans out or they will still be there and rebuild their neighborhoods. The other option is that the Gazans will be dead. That would really ugly.
The report starts with a light and hopeful tone. But by the end it is confusing and possibly scary.
That would be a good result, but distance away from the homeland is an issue.
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
Didn't Israel warn of Retaliation for the October attacks, and give people the clear heads up of what was coming shortly after?
Yes. Yes they did.
Now you have to wonder why countries in the region weren't proactive in providing refuge for these people
Yes. Yes they did.
Now you have to wonder why countries in the region weren't proactive in providing refuge for these people
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Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I have to answer no, because then they bombed the "safe" location afterward, so they don't get any credit for the prior warning. That is what the guy in the first Tweet is talking about. A guy who undoubtedly has lost all his possessions and probably a big chunk of his family.
We can criticize Egypt and Jordan's stance on providing refuge, because that would be the right thing to do, but that doesn't justify what Israel is doing now. It's literally what the Nazis did to the German Jews. They tried to get another country to accept them as refugees and everyone refused including the US. Once the boat got back to Germany, the Nazis put them in concentration camps and we all know how that went. Does that make the Holocaust America's fault? Absolutely not.
we knew it would spill over but 3 American military were killed in Jordan.
So here is Biden/Demz response
"Biden said the United States is "still gathering the facts" regarding Saturday's "despicable and wholly unjust" attack. He pledged retaliation.
"Have no doubt — we will hold all those responsible to account at a time and in a manner of our choosing," the president said on Sunday.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-promises-retaliation-3-us-182403942.html
Not sure what the right response should be but the Biden/Demz response seems meaningless.
WHY are we there?
So here is Biden/Demz response
"Biden said the United States is "still gathering the facts" regarding Saturday's "despicable and wholly unjust" attack. He pledged retaliation.
"Have no doubt — we will hold all those responsible to account at a time and in a manner of our choosing," the president said on Sunday.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/biden-promises-retaliation-3-us-182403942.html
Not sure what the right response should be but the Biden/Demz response seems meaningless.
WHY are we there?
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