Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; their neighboring states are unsavory and un-trustworthy
- Thread starter Chop
- Start date
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
That is definitely the common view that has been told to us by the ruling liberal class. But it isn't the truth. It has more in common with the Nazi's thinking that it does honest history.
Plus you are talking about WW2 which is completely different to the current events. Wars between nation states and formal armies is 2nd generation warfare. This is a 4th generation war. Between one nation state, Israel, and people live under the rule of that state. You don't defeat an insurgency type force with WW2 logic.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Yeah. Actually the killing of civilians in Japan and Germany were not decisive to the outcome. The British bombed German cities out of vengeance not military strategy. The US military command actually didn't agree with it.
In Japan, it wasn't the same motivation but there were many in the military at the time that believed it wasn't necessary.
Not sure what the second paragraph is about. Reads like you are mixing current events and WW2 into some kind of soup. Of course atrocities bother me. The Japanese were brutal against everyone, especially Chinese.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
You can say it doesn't dehumanize them. But saying their lives aren't important enough to question what is going on does in fact dehumanize them. Christians included. The blame for the dead civilians is for those who kill them. That is what justice is. Placing them in a group of "evil" is collectivism.
Where is the evidence of human shields? Can you describe for me what Hamas is doing? The leaders of Hamas don't live in Gaza. Why not go after them where they live? Are you saying that Hamas was in the church annex building that was bombed last week? This is a narrative that everyone believes in, and it is plausible. I don't think Hamas are above it or anything other than murderers. But there is lots of data being shown right now that calls the idea of human shields into question.
It also ignores the fact Israel killed hundreds and even a few thousands of civilians by sniper. They have shot kids and elderly in the streets on purpose.
It doesn't sound like you are really concerned with hostages either. Is bombing buildings the way you get hostages out of Gaza? That doesn't make any sense. I agree that forces should be used to go free hostages. Taking Hamas out and freeing hostages is the right thing to do.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Is it okay to let them? Twisted way of asking a question. It is evil to shoot rockets at other people. But is that the only thing going on here? This is a dishonest question in that it ignores at least half of what is going on.
Would I prefer that Israel doesn't let Hamas to shoot rockets at them? Yes. Go stop Hamas then. But when 90% of the people killed by Israel aren't in Hamas, new crimes have been committed.
Why do assume the Israeli’s are going to bomb buildings? I heard they were going to plug the tunnels and wait them out.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
You are saying that if the US continued with the foreign policy of the founding fathers then we wouldn't be a nation anymore. We had to reject the founding generation and become a more European style imperial power. The US had to fund the USSR and ally ourselves with literally the most evil country that has ever existed in the history of the world in order to survive. I don't buy it.
Now the thinking is if the US/Israel doesn't think of Palestinians like the Nazis thought about Jews then they wouldn't exist.
It is an impressive psyop that the Israeli and US government have played on the American population. We actively give our sons' lives, money, and weapons over to another country with nothing in return. The US government may get something back in return but the American are getting stolen from and killed for the sake of the rich and powerful.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
So kill all the Palestinian civilians? Podhoretz has been calling for the US to kill on Israel's behalf for decades and before that his dad.
It is a weird kind of collectivism where Palestinian citizens are equated with Hamas. Then attack those who haven't committed the evil not those who have actually done it.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Have you looked at the pictures and videos over the last 2 days? I am not assuming anything. Israel is leveling Gaza City right now. I have seen picture after picture. Israel isn't in the tunnels while they are bombing the area. Maybe they will do that later but that isn't what is going on right now.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
We agree! 100%.
Those people are stupid. And they're just bringing down curses upon themselves. And then they wonder why they are almost always history's losers, generation-after-generation, century-after-century.
No Mona you and the President of the United States do not understand the problem because it isn't in your backyard.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
I don't agree with Biden on anything. Those who want the US to send money, weapons, and troops to Israel are following him and his puppet masters in lock step
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
You kill my baby in an oven, I'm going to put an end to you. End of story. You don't belong on the planet
The stories of hatred and murder at will from hamas will come to an end.
There are NO words. But let's make Israel trying to stop Hamas from EVER doing this again equivalent to this horror
Shani Louk found 'beheaded' 3 weeks after she was kidnapped by Hamas
Shani Louk found 'beheaded' 3 weeks after she was kidnapped by Hamas
This is from Time.com and requoted by MSN.
I thought about quoting parts of the link below but wanted you to have the opportunity to read the entire article. The video is from Al-Jazeera as can be seen in their logo.
To be clear, I support Israel's right to exist and want Hamas eliminated. Not the Palestinian people, but Hamas.
What the World Gets Wrong About Hamas (msn.com)
I thought about quoting parts of the link below but wanted you to have the opportunity to read the entire article. The video is from Al-Jazeera as can be seen in their logo.
To be clear, I support Israel's right to exist and want Hamas eliminated. Not the Palestinian people, but Hamas.
What the World Gets Wrong About Hamas (msn.com)
You run to the extreme. Because I don't think killing civilians isn't a reason not to pursue Hamas, you think that means I think we should just unquestioningly kill civilians. There's a middle ground. Obviously, IDF should make every effort not to kill civilians if it doesn't serve a valid military objective. However, the fact that an action necessary to destroy the current threat to Israel also kills civilians isn't a reason not to take that action.
No. If a guy takes a hostage and the police in an attempt to kill the hostage-taker accidentally shoots the hostage, that is on the hostage-taker.
For starters, what constitutes a human shield? You don't have to literally hold up a civilian in front of you for it to constitute a human shield. Hiding terrorists in hospitals or churches is using a human shield. Deploying rockets near a hospital or mosque is using a human shield. The evidence comes from Israeli intelligence and military sources. Hamas obviously denies that they do this sort of thing. You can believe Hamas if you want to. I don't. They don't even value their own lives, much less other people's lives.
And the leaders of Hamas may not live in Gaza, but that isn't a reason not to go into Gaza.
I don't know if they were or not. I also don't know if IDF bombed the church annex intentionally. Show me evidence that the church was the intended target, that Hamas wasn't in the church, and that IDF had no reason to think they were, and I'll condemn the action.
I don't doubt that there are bad apples in the IDF who have done bad things. There are people in the US military who have done terrible things and always have been.
Again, it's like the killing of civilians. You do your best not to harm hostages, but you can't let bad guys use them to protect themselves. That just encourages more hostage taking.
That lasted about ten minutes. I consider Jefferson a "founding father," and his administration and foreign policy was miles from yours. For starters, we were engaged in massive territorial expansion (actual conquest - far more aggressive than anything we do today) almost from the beginning. On and off, we waged war from about 1801 - 1815 against the Barbary Pirates literally on the other side of the world.
The biggest difference back then was that we didn't a large permanent army. Back when it took months or even a year for a war to actually start, that worked fine. That isn't the case anymore.
You don't have to buy it, but we considered Nazi Germany to be a more imminent threat than the USSR. You can argue that we shouldn't have, but that really isn't the point. It's an anecdote, not a broad policy. (My personal belief is that we were right to aid the USSR to keep Hitler from taking over the Soviet Union but that we should have listened to Patton after the war.)
That's just hyperbolic garbage. We don't think that, and no serious human thinks that.
We're not getting stolen from. We've generally elected pro-Israel governments for decades. Aiding Israel is something the American people generally support.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Every dollar and resource they send over there is coming out our pockets through inflation. If you are against inflation, you should be against this. It is making us all poorer.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
That is what is happening en masse. It is amazing to watch as I stand on the sidelines. If you don't see the parallels you need to take step back and think about it. Domestic subversives (in different ways of course). Collective guilt. Removal of people from homes. Move ethnic group into "contained" area.
At least for Israel they are facing a threat to themselves. It is understandable that they respond out of fear and emotion. For Americans, it is strange to identify their interests with the interests of people on the other side of the world. Responding about it with similar emotional language. I am seeing this all over the internet and social media.
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
Are you saying without that change the United States couldn't have existed? Without expansion and fighting Barbary Pirates? Were the Barbary Pirates an existential threat to the United States?
Patton said we fought the wrong enemy. He died mysteriously within months of coming to that reality. His desire to fight the USSR was based on that realization not the idea that the US needed to defeat both countries. He thought we shouldn't have ever allied with the Soviets.
It should have been obvious to all that the USSR had global ambitions, while the Nazis had regional ambitions. It is very sick that the USSR wouldn't have even existed without lots of money given to them from wealthy Americans and the occurrence of WW1. There was one guy, wish I could remember his name, that gave the Bolsheviks the equivalent of $2 Billion dollars at the outset of their revolution.
1940s -- (1) National Socialist Germany and (2) the Soviet Union were both brutal totalitarian dictatorships.
So why did we ally with Russia against Germany?
1. Germany declared war on us:
- Germany's Axis pal Japan sneak attacked us and Germany declared war on us.
- The Soviets did not attack us, or declare war on us, but rather befriended us (an unlikely 2 allies, but allies for a time nonetheless).
2. Germany was much more dangerous and capable than Russia*:
- Germany's war fighting technology in many areas was #1 in the world--even better than ours. In some areas, it wasn't even close. If left alone, they very well may have developed rockets that could hit the USA, and possibly with atomic weaponry.
- Russia had crappy technology. Russia's war fighting capabilities came from its enormous (seemingly endless) supply of infantrymen that could often overwhelm an adversary on land with sheer numbers. That being said, they were able to produce lots and lots and lots of rockets/artillery that they used effectively.
*interestingly enough, because of their mostly capable Navy (#2 in the World for most of the war), despite Germany's overall technological edge over everyone, Japan was actually the World's biggest threat to us. Japan could project power across Oceans in a way Hitler could only dream of. However, if left alone, Germany's technological edge could have eventually made Germany the most dangerous.
3. Germany was on a mission to annihilate the Jews.
- One of the 3rd Reich's main purposes was to "ethnically/racially cleanse" Europe, and ultimately the World, of people they regarded as genetically inferior. They especially wanted to kill all the Jews. The USA's predominant religious, legal, cultural, and ethical traditions can be traced back to Judaism through a certain great radical rabbi from the Roman occupation era. ALL of his 12 disciples and early followers were...................................Jewish. The 10 Commandments you can see depicted on the US Supreme Court building....................Jewish. The foundational basis of our law.................Jewish. Nazi Germany set itself up as the diametric opposite opponent of all of this.+
- The Soviets -- bad dudes, real bad dudes. Totalitarians, anti-freedom, anti-free speech, anti-capitalist, anti-life, anti-religion, police state, etc. Despite their theory, in practice they were highly prejudicial to ethnic and religious minorities. But, compared with the Nazis, they were equal opportunity killers. And they didn't set out to annihilate any religion or ethnic group.
+The roots of Western Civilization are in the Middle East. The Nazis invented an alternative history in which the roots of Western Civilization were in the ancient proto Indo-European pagan tribes of the Steppes. Adherents to this alternative history can be found today in prison gangs, neo-pagan groups, occult groups, vegans, new age folks, neo-Nazis (of course), fans of OU football, dark corners of the internet, etc.
So why did we ally with Russia against Germany?
1. Germany declared war on us:
- Germany's Axis pal Japan sneak attacked us and Germany declared war on us.
- The Soviets did not attack us, or declare war on us, but rather befriended us (an unlikely 2 allies, but allies for a time nonetheless).
2. Germany was much more dangerous and capable than Russia*:
- Germany's war fighting technology in many areas was #1 in the world--even better than ours. In some areas, it wasn't even close. If left alone, they very well may have developed rockets that could hit the USA, and possibly with atomic weaponry.
- Russia had crappy technology. Russia's war fighting capabilities came from its enormous (seemingly endless) supply of infantrymen that could often overwhelm an adversary on land with sheer numbers. That being said, they were able to produce lots and lots and lots of rockets/artillery that they used effectively.
*interestingly enough, because of their mostly capable Navy (#2 in the World for most of the war), despite Germany's overall technological edge over everyone, Japan was actually the World's biggest threat to us. Japan could project power across Oceans in a way Hitler could only dream of. However, if left alone, Germany's technological edge could have eventually made Germany the most dangerous.
3. Germany was on a mission to annihilate the Jews.
- One of the 3rd Reich's main purposes was to "ethnically/racially cleanse" Europe, and ultimately the World, of people they regarded as genetically inferior. They especially wanted to kill all the Jews. The USA's predominant religious, legal, cultural, and ethical traditions can be traced back to Judaism through a certain great radical rabbi from the Roman occupation era. ALL of his 12 disciples and early followers were...................................Jewish. The 10 Commandments you can see depicted on the US Supreme Court building....................Jewish. The foundational basis of our law.................Jewish. Nazi Germany set itself up as the diametric opposite opponent of all of this.+
- The Soviets -- bad dudes, real bad dudes. Totalitarians, anti-freedom, anti-free speech, anti-capitalist, anti-life, anti-religion, police state, etc. Despite their theory, in practice they were highly prejudicial to ethnic and religious minorities. But, compared with the Nazis, they were equal opportunity killers. And they didn't set out to annihilate any religion or ethnic group.
+The roots of Western Civilization are in the Middle East. The Nazis invented an alternative history in which the roots of Western Civilization were in the ancient proto Indo-European pagan tribes of the Steppes. Adherents to this alternative history can be found today in prison gangs, neo-pagan groups, occult groups, vegans, new age folks, neo-Nazis (of course), fans of OU football, dark corners of the internet, etc.
Last edited:
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
Monahorns
10,000+ Posts
They were prejudicial against Christians first and foremost. They were also racist in many ways. The Soviets russified every country in the USSR. They looked down on anyone not Russian.
Weekly Prediction Contest
* Predict TEXAS-ULM *
Sat, Sep 21 • 7:00 PM on ESPN+/SECN+
Recent Threads
Prediction Results Threads
2024 Schedules
