Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; their neighboring states are unsavory and un-trustworthy

bystander said:
Oh man. A New York redneck with the full accent going! CLASSIC! And he told him he had the right to put his stuff up but not touch someone else's stuff.
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Yes his argument was morally and logically consistent.
 
Check to see if you can read the original at the WSJ. Man, this is ****** up.

 
mchammer said:
Check to see if you can read the original at the WSJ. Man, this is ****** up.

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I read it, and it is.

It discusses how academics and left wing crackpots view Israel as an example of settler colonialism to be destroyed. They also don't view settler colonialism as a historical event but as a system that remains in place and continues to displace indigenous people. In other words, if you're a white person born in the US in 1980, you're as much of a settler as someone who sailed from Europe in the 1600s and murdered Native Americans to take the land.

The author points out that this makes the modern left more radical than anti-colonial movements of post-WWII, which largely were seeking national sovereignty from foreign rulers with no connection to the land other than conquest. It means that "settler" is a permanent and inheritable mark of guilt, much like "bourgeois" is in Marxist nations, and it warrants expelling millions of people from the places of their birth.

For example, it would mean my family getting kicked out of Texas and California and returned to Wales (left in the 1600s) or Sicily (left in the 1900s) or more likely being killed. In fact, they view violence as not only justified but redemptive and therapeutic. That's why they celebrated the killing of Jews and happily tear down posters of kidnapped children.

He also points out the irony that while anti-colonialism frames itself as a progressive ideology, it is echoing the same relationship of a race of people to land as the Nazis did. It is a "blood and soil" mentality. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

What I find a bit amusing is that Hamas and the crackpot academics view Muslims as the only indigenous people to modern day Israel when Islam didn't even exist as a religion until the 7th century. Obviously Jewish ties to that land go back much further. I also find it amusing that they view Muslims as victims of settler colonialism when it's a religion that has spread throughout the world almost entirely through the violent conquest of marauding savages butchering people in Africa and Asia under the direction of various caliphates. Hell, if we followed the logic of the anti-colonialists, there'd basically be no Muslims outside of Mecca and Medina.
 
If someone talks bad about Israel are they an anti -Semite?

asking for a friend.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I read it, and it is.

It discusses how academics and left wing crackpots view Israel as an example of settler colonialism to be destroyed. They also don't view settler colonialism as a historical event but as a system that remains in place and continues to displace indigenous people. In other words, if you're a white person born in the US in 1980, you're as much of a settler as someone who sailed from Europe in the 1600s and murdered Native Americans to take the land.

The author points out that this makes the modern left more radical than anti-colonial movements of post-WWII, which largely were seeking national sovereignty from foreign rulers with no connection to the land other than conquest. It means that "settler" is a permanent and inheritable mark of guilt, much like "bourgeois" is in Marxist nations, and it warrants expelling millions of people from the places of their birth.

For example, it would mean my family getting kicked out of Texas and California and returned to Wales (left in the 1600s) or Sicily (left in the 1900s) or more likely being killed. In fact, they view violence as not only justified but redemptive and therapeutic. That's why they celebrated the killing of Jews and happily tear down posters of kidnapped children.

He also points out the irony that while anti-colonialism frames itself as a progressive ideology, it is echoing the same relationship of a race of people to land as the Nazis did. It is a "blood and soil" mentality. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

What I find a bit amusing is that Hamas and the crackpot academics view Muslims as the only indigenous people to modern day Israel when Islam didn't even exist as a religion until the 7th century. Obviously Jewish ties to that land go back much further. I also find it amusing that they view Muslims as victims of settler colonialism when it's a religion that has spread throughout the world almost entirely through the violent conquest of marauding savages butchering people in Africa and Asia under the direction of various caliphates. Hell, if we followed the logic of the anti-colonialists, there'd basically be no Muslims outside of Mecca and Medina.
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This is why I consider any form or version of Marxism a crime against humanity. It justifies murder and energizes people to do so. The viewpoint needs to be illegal and punished. If they cry about free speech, ignore their cries as you stuff them in a cop car or jail. Either do it now and get angry rhetoric from people or wait until their momentum builds have to fight a hot war in your neighborhood.
 
Creek said:
If someone talks bad about Israel are they an anti -Semite?

asking for a friend.
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I suppose it depends on what they say but generally not. There are fair criticisms of Israeli policy, but I seldom hear them. I hear them called "settlers," "occupiers," and "an apartheid state," but I never hear specifics or any context to support those contentions. Furthermore, if you're cheering on the kidnapping, rape, and murder of Jewish civilians who weren't doing anything wrong, I'm going to assume you're antisemitic for the same reason I'd assume someone cheering on the gas chamber operators at Treblinka were antisemitic.

And of course, what I find funny is that the same people who play the "we're not antisemitic, we're just criticizing Israeli policy" card will also claim that anybody who doesn't like illegal immigration or violent crime is a wild racist. A little consistency in their argument would be nice.
 
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They are called settlers and occupiers within the borders of the West Bank. The settlers will come in and either kick the Palestinians out by force or they will bulldoze their houses and build their own on the land. Once the settlers "settle" the plot of land the IDF is bound by law to protect them. That isn't going on in Gaza. It also doesn't justify Hamas kidnapping and murdering people within the official borders of Israel.
 
Mona
No offense and this may be accurate. No doubt children in Gaza have been killed since Hamas is embeded in and under civilian places

But why would you post a link to this person?
Who is he? What are the sources?
Do you really accept a tweet from an uncredited source who offers no accredited sources for the info?
Hamas and Gaza gov't have been proven to put out lies.
 
Horn6721 said:
Mona
No offense and this may be accurate. No doubt children in Gaza have been killed since Hamas is embeded in and under civilian places

But why would you post a link to this person?
Who is he? What are the sources?
Do you really accept a tweet from an uncredited source who offers no accredited sources for the info?
Hamas and Gaza gov't have been proven to put out lies.
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It is a guy who has spent time in Israel working with their military on missile systems in the DOD. He has studied the Israel-Palestine history in depth. He talks with military analysts who he knows from his previous career. He isn't taking reports from Hamas. You post uncredited sources yourself. Anonymous person from "church" about the bombing this week. I was showing you a source with a face who has family in the area. You responded that he had an agenda.

This whole Hamas uses people as human shields is BS when Israel isn't even trying to hit military targets. They are just leveling the city. Where is your credited source that the IDF knows where Hamas is and that the dead civilians were in fact sitting in the room next to Hamas? I thought the IDF has pinpoint accuracy for their missiles?

I show you a list of 1000s of children killed by Israel and you deflect? How many kids did Hamas kill? At the most 1000? How many kids is Israel now justified to kill in response? 1000? 2000? 10,000? All of them? Even if Hamas is using civilians as shields what cost in blood covers what Hamas did? I don't get the math or logic. Real justice is direct meaning the wrong doers receive the punishment, not their family or neighbors. The actual criminal. Real justice is also proportional. If someone steals your car. The thief should give you back your car and he should also give you his car. This is how justice was performed until the 1800s I think. Now we live in an evil Enlightenment, Post-modern, moral relativity system where governments have warped justice to something criminals owe the government not the victims.
 
I have every confidence that children and other innocents are dying in Gaza just as they died in Hiroshima, Tokyo, Dresden, and Berlin. When evil people do evil things, it leads to war that hurts innocents who are close to the evil people. It's sad, but it isn't a reason not to pursue and destroy the evil people. Furthermore, if you let it, it encourages the evil people to always ensure that they put innocents between them and those pursuing them. Hamas and other groups have been doing this in Israel for decades. They're masters of it.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I have every confidence that children and other innocents are dying in Gaza just as they died in Hiroshima, Tokyo, Dresden, and Berlin. When evil people do evil things, it leads to war that hurts innocents who are close to the evil people. It's sad, but it isn't a reason not to pursue and destroy the evil people. Furthermore, if you let it, it encourages the evil people to always ensure that they put innocents between them and those pursuing them. Hamas and other groups have been doing this in Israel for decades. They're masters of it.
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Yep. We killed more Japanese and German children than they did of ours. Were we still the good guys? Damn straight we were. We didn't give a **** about being "proportional" because we actually cared about winning the damn war and ending it.

I would hate to try to win a war against the Axis Powers with this modern mindset.
 
War is brutal, absolutely brutal. But is there anything that would have stopped the Nazi's or Japanese other than all out war? The same can be said for the imperialists of today.

Yes, it's horrible children are being killed, but how many more Jews of all ages would have been murdered, and Europeans of all ages been executed if the Allies hadn't stopped them? And if atrocities bother you, don't start reading about the horrible, despicable torture carried out by the Japanese.
 
Mr. Deez said:
I have every confidence that children and other innocents are dying in Gaza just as they died in Hiroshima, Tokyo, Dresden, and Berlin. When evil people do evil things, it leads to war that hurts innocents who are close to the evil people. It's sad, but it isn't a reason not to pursue and destroy the evil people. Furthermore, if you let it, it encourages the evil people to always ensure that they put innocents between them and those pursuing them. Hamas and other groups have been doing this in Israel for decades. They're masters of it.
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The problem with that logic is it dehumanizes innocents. Now Israel is justified to kill any number of people just to get at Hamas. But this is 4th generation warfare. The more people they kill the more recruitment into Hamas grows. The more Israel kills, the more other Muslim countries get involved. Terrorists do things not for the action but the reaction and over reaction by those they are terrorizing. The only way to win the war is to delegitimize them in their own populations eyes. What is going on right now is doing the opposite.
 
Monahorns said:
The problem with that logic is it dehumanizes innocents. Now Israel is justified to kill any number of people just to get at Hamas. But this is 4th generation warfare. The more people they kill the more recruitment into Hamas grows. The more Israel kills, the more other Muslim countries get involved. Terrorists do things not for the action but the reaction and over reaction by those they are terrorizing. The only way to win the war is to delegitimize them in their own populations eyes. What is going on right now is doing the opposite.
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It doesn't dehumanise them. It puts the moral blame for their deaths where it belongs, which is on the evil people, not on those fighting evil. It also denies the evil people the benefit and incentive of using innocents as human shields. It may seem more magnanimous in the short term to let them get away with it, but long term it leads to more death.

And Israel isn't overreacting. They've been haggling with these people for over 70 years. They've extended many olive branches to them, and they still try to kill them. If a peaceful resolution can be reached, that's fine, but until the hostages are returned and Hamas is completely stripped of its power, Israel shouldn't even be at the negotiating table.
 
Mona, so it is okay to let Hamas and Hezbollah keep lobbing rockets into Israel and injuring/maiming/killing Israelis?
 
Garmel said:
Yep. We killed more Japanese and German children than they did of ours. Were we still the good guys? Damn straight we were. We didn't give a **** about being "proportional" because we actually cared about winning the damn war and ending it.

I would hate to try to win a war against the Axis Powers with this modern mindset.
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If any element of the far left or libertarian foreign policy had sway, we wouldn't exist as a nation today. We would have gotten our asses handed to us. If you want to look for a perverse silver lining, had we fought that way, the current Palestinian - Israeli conflict wouldn't be happening, because Jews would basically be an extinct demographic by now. Instead, Muslims would just be murdering each other in the Middle East, meaning nobody would care about it for the same reason nobody cares about black-on-black crime in the US. There'd be no political advantage to be gained from it.
 
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