Israel = the Good Guys in the Middle East; Turks proving to be our enemies

Horn6721 said:
?? Mona
Hamas with no warning rapes tortures and kills innocent Israeli citizens and takes hostages it has raped and tortured
IF that wasn't a declaration of war from Hamas What exactly would you see as an act of war?
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Pretty one sided war then and Israel won it before 2023 was over.

Good to see that you ignored everything before 10/7/2023 though. It allows one to be confident in an opinion while at the same time being completely inaccurate.
 
Mr. Deez said:
He views the land as belonging to the Palestinians, as he says in the final paragraph. If you start with that assumption, basically anything the Palestinians do can be justified or explained away. And sure enough, he does that.
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My gosh. This is almost comical. I don't know if the inaccuracy in the statement is purposeful or due to a more sympathetic factor. But it simplifies everything to a by-line. Sounds like what a Fox News-MSNBC type talking head would say.

I don't view "the land" as one thing. I view ownership down to individual plots of land. The fact is that Israel kicked Palestinians off land they had owned and worked for hundreds if not thousands of years in 1948. The fact is that Israel is still kicking Palestinians off of land that they legally or morally hold claim to today. These are the simple facts, 1948-2024 at least.

That doesn't mean that all the land owned by Israel today was taken by force. Some of it was purchased and acquired by other legitimate means during that same timeframe and before. Any Israeli who truly purchased or homesteaded land is the true owner of the land, and their ownership should be protected. I even think the Israeli families living on land taken 50 or so years ago should be considered the legitimate owners because there is no way to document who the previous owner was and it would be way too difficult and complicated to repatriate land in an ethical way.

If there are cases where you can prove legal ownership of land through documentation and it is clear enough for a court to rule, I would support repatriation of Palestinians to land they lived on. Not many of these kinds of cases exist.

Even with that, I don't justify terroristic acts against Israel by Hamas, both on a moral and a utilitarian basis. I don't think Palestinians should support Hamas either. They are leading them down a primrose path to destruction. However, I do recognize that the people in Gaza and the West Bank are being oppressed and that one very human response to that is violence. That doesn't "justify" it. But it does mean I understand human nature.
 
Monahorns said:
My gosh. This is almost comical. I don't know if the inaccuracy in the statement is purposeful or due to a more sympathetic factor. But it simplifies everything to a by-line. Sounds like what a Fox News-MSNBC type talking head would say.

I don't view "the land" as one thing. I view ownership down to individual plots of land. The fact is that Israel kicked Palestinians off land they had owned and worked for hundreds if not thousands of years in 1948. The fact is that Israel is still kicking Palestinians off of land that they legally or morally hold claim to today. These are the simple facts, 1948-2024 at least.

That doesn't mean that all the land owned by Israel today was taken by force. Some of it was purchased and acquired by other legitimate means during that same timeframe and before. Any Israeli who truly purchased or homesteaded land is the true owner of the land, and their ownership should be protected. I even think the Israeli families living on land taken 50 or so years ago should be considered the legitimate owners because there is no way to document who the previous owner was and it would be way too difficult and complicated to repatriate land in an ethical way.

If there are cases where you can prove legal ownership of land through documentation and it is clear enough for a court to rule, I would support repatriation of Palestinians to land they lived on. Not many of these kinds of cases exist.

Even with that, I don't justify terroristic acts against Israel by Hamas, both on a moral and a utilitarian basis. I don't think Palestinians should support Hamas either. They are leading them down a primrose path to destruction. However, I do recognize that the people in Gaza and the West Bank are being oppressed and that one very human response to that is violence. That doesn't "justify" it. But it does mean I understand human nature.
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All I did was read your comment. But of course, you're also an extreme backpedaller.
 
Mr. Deez said:
All I did was read your comment. But of course, you're also an extreme backpedaller.
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That is a lie. I never said any action is justified. It also doesn't represent accurately what I was talking about.

First, I wasn't talking in absolute terms. In 1948, before and after, there were Jews who legitimately owned land. That doesn't mean the events of 1948 didn't happen and Jews didn't violate the rights of many Palestinians at that time.

I said this...
The Gaza strip itself exists the way it does because Israel pushed at least 750,000 people off their land in 1948 and holds them in a walled stretch of land 5 miles X 25 miles. There has been an ongoing 76 year old attack on Palestinians by Israelis.
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...as a response to this comment by BrntOrngStmpeDe, which implied that the conflict started last year. It at least ignores the ongoing nature of the conflict.
You attack me, I'm taking ground in my counter attack.
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Notice in my last paragraph I don't say no Jews owned land legitimately. IOW, I didn't say the land belongs to the Palestinians in some absolute, binary way. That is taking what I said out of context and twisting it to frame it in a certain way. I'm not back pedaling from anything I actually said. I am explaining myself for the others on this board, so that they know I didn't say what you insinuated.
 
Monahorns said:
That is a lie. I never said any action is justified. It also doesn't represent accurately what I was talking about.

First, I wasn't talking in absolute terms. In 1948, before and after, there were Jews who legitimately owned land. That doesn't mean the events of 1948 didn't happen and Jews didn't violate the rights of many Palestinians at that time.

I said this...
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Actually you did speak in absolute terms, but again, you're a huge backpedaller.
 
Mr. Deez said:
Actually you did speak in absolute terms, but again, you're a huge backpedaller.
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Excuse Me Wow GIF by Mashable
 
Horn6721 said:
Mona If you read the article it is full of "May Might Could Potentially"
Plenty of conjecture . Not a good try.
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Yes. The author is very careful in his language, but it isn't conjecture. The quotes from the IDF on 10/7 paints a clear picture and are very direct.

The order went out to not let any cars re-enter Gaza, and the military carried it out. It's clear what happened, but it isn't clear how much people were actually killed.

He also mentions examples of the IDF firing on their own bases and civilian houses. They know specifically that 13 Israelis were killed by the IDF firing on just one house.
 
Monahorns said:
Glad some of the hostages were found. That's great news. I hope there are more alive that will be rescued.
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Yes it is great news and I should have said that. I was focusing on how the locals seemed oblivious to how Hamas hides in the middle of population centers.
 
bystander said:
Yes it is great news and I should have said that. I was focusing on how the locals seemed oblivious to how Hamas hides in the middle of population centers.
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I think we all know that happens. It is part of what makes the situation so complicated.

It also shows that there are Palestinians who are innocent in the matter too.
 
Monahorns said:
That is a lie. I never said any action is justified. It also doesn't represent accurately what I was talking about.

First, I wasn't talking in absolute terms. In 1948, before and after, there were Jews who legitimately owned land. That doesn't mean the events of 1948 didn't happen and Jews didn't violate the rights of many Palestinians at that time.

I said this...


...as a response to this comment by BrntOrngStmpeDe, which implied that the conflict started last year. It at least ignores the ongoing nature of the conflict.


Notice in my last paragraph I don't say no Jews owned land legitimately. IOW, I didn't say the land belongs to the Palestinians in some absolute, binary way. That is taking what I said out of context and twisting it to frame it in a certain way. I'm not back pedaling from anything I actually said. I am explaining myself for the others on this board, so that they know I didn't say what you insinuated.
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In 1948, the world powers basically gave Israel its homeland, and it was a given that Arabs would have to give way to some extent, but no one could know the future. No one, at least not you, is really trying to reevaluate that value judgment, which had a lot to do with what had happened in Europe. The original outline was built on a hope that Arabs and Israelis could coexist, but immediately and from then to now, Arabs refused to coexist, so the original plan never had a chance, and almost everyone who was watching put the blame on Arabs for that stance. Over time, reasonable Arabs have decided to coexist, such as Egypt, Jordan, and was about to be Saudi. The Palestinian people have at least equally, if not more, been used as pawns by the never-coexist Arabs as victims of Israel. That is OBVIOUSLY what 10/7 was about.

I appreciate your sympathy for the Palestinians, and besides just how pathetic they are (meaning deserving pathos), this was in part a European problem that got relocated to the Middle East, so maybe the world “owes” them something, but now that we are in like season 6 of Game of Thrones, with all that has happened, we can’t just go back to local real estate records from the 1940s to find what would be right at this late date
 
ViperHorn said:
I don't think anyone would argue that but then the family in question appeared to be "normal" until the truth came out.
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Yes. There are those who are arguing that. I have heard multiple people equate Palestinians with Amalekites and call for their extermination. Sad (and dumb) but true.

To me, the family being surprised that Hamas lived next to them is the evidence. There are families truly surprised that Hamas is next door.
 
VYFan said:
In 1948, the world powers basically gave Israel its homeland, and it was a given that Arabs would have to give way to some extent, but no one could know the future. No one, at least not you, is really trying to reevaluate that value judgment, which had a lot to do with what had happened in Europe. The original outline was built on a hope that Arabs and Israelis could coexist, but immediately and from then to now, Arabs refused to coexist, so the original plan never had a chance, and almost everyone who was watching put the blame on Arabs for that stance. Over time, reasonable Arabs have decided to coexist, such as Egypt, Jordan, and was about to be Saudi. The Palestinian people have at least equally, if not more, been used as pawns by the never-coexist Arabs as victims of Israel. That is OBVIOUSLY what 10/7 was about.
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I have studied the history of the issue starting in the late 1800s. The Arabs took advantage of their political leverage until 1948. The Israelis have taken advantage ever since. It was fine, to me, to give Jews some of the land. What is not fine to me is that the Jews took more land than was legitimately agreed to by the European powers on 1948 and ever since.

Arabs of all stripes have tried to coexist with Israel including Palestinians. But not all Palestinians, a good amount of them have fought a guerilla war for decades now. My whole point has been that the Palestinians who are trying to coexist should be given the chance and they shouldn't be killed or have their homes and land taken from them by force. The Palestinians fighting the guerilla war should be identified and brought to justice.
VYFan said:
I appreciate your sympathy for the Palestinians, and besides just how pathetic they are (meaning deserving pathos), this was in part a European problem that got relocated to the Middle East, so maybe the world “owes” them something, but now that we are in like season 6 of Game of Thrones, with all that has happened, we can’t just go back to local real estate records from the 1940s to find what would be right at this late date
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Why not go to local real estate records where they actually exist. I don't think records like that exist though. These people operated on a medieval level. I don't think they had documentation and deeds and stuff. But if a deed to land could be produced and it could be shown in a court that a group of Israelis forced them off, then the land should be given back to the rightful owners. That is what the American kind of individual rights are about. Part that doesn't exist by and large which means that the status quo should be defended. That and find a way to unwind the violence and give the Palestinians some hope somehow. That may be impossible, but really smart people should be trying to think of ways to do it. Until then just don't bomb a region the size of Travis Country into oblivion or force anyone else out of their house.
 
Not related to Israel but to US foreign policy. Do you remember when the US military left Syria and some people said the Kurds would be slaughtered and we therefore shouldn't leave? I haven't heard anything about Kurds ever since. If they were getting wiped out we would have heard about it by now. It's almost like our government and their lackeys in the media lie about everything to justify their actions. 😅😂🤣
 
Run Pincher said:
What are the odds she selects a male Jew as her running mate?
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That would be the Governor of Pennsylvania - but no. Seems like the Governor of Kentucky is going to be the choice.

The demz are all about saving the Senate. It is 50/50 that they let Harris debate Trump because that will be worse than Biden/Trump. Higher odds that they let the VP choices debate.
 
Despite the horrific conditions they are suffering the Christians in Gaza are standing firm in their faith. I pray God would show them mercy by ending these bombing campaigns.

 
That is very tragic to read. I do not know how many Christians there still are in Gaza. I hope most would have been able to get out maybe with the help of family and friends And Christian organizations
Hopefully now that Justin Amash knows he with all the resources available to him can get his cousin and family, maybe others too,out of Gaza.
 
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