If you're going on a witch hunt, you have to find a witch.
Impeachment
- Thread starter mchammer
- Start date
If you're going on a witch hunt, you have to find a witch.
You’re touting Obozo sending that to the very government that even Ms. Hill had doubts about during that time frame? Just sayin’. He fell in line with what the career diplomats wanted I guess.
So Trump was concerned about corruption in Ukraine. Why would he have asked the previous regime to look into it? The fact that Biden was the front runner is odd enough, but he was the front runner when Zelensky first came into power. When should he have asked him to look into it? Oh....never....so improper even though he had been spies on and had fake info bought by Hillary and the DNC.
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
Probably about the time that Paul Manafort was convicted.
Why is it a big deal for the Dems that the Republicans say Ukraine also meddled in 2016? Holding up aid until all these very diplomats assure Trump that releasing the aid is okay to do is a big deal for what reason besides a non existent quid pro quo. They seem to be saying Republicans and Trump should focus solely on Russian meddling. Who says there is not a focus on that? And are we providing aid to Russia that is being held up until they step in line? No. The new regime in Ukraine needed the aid. Besides continuing the BS fake quid pro quo narrative there is nothing nefarious about it. It hurts the feelings of the diplomats. That’s it.
Relative performance in military aid, economic growth, mean tweets, etc. form no basis for impeachment. Impeachment is not about competence, personality, media relations and the like. It can only be used in instances of abuse of office/high crimes and misdemeanors. Historically, it's only been used for behavior clearly indictable.
Nixon both broke the law and abused power and to equate what Trump did to Watergate is to show you are lacking some combination of historical knowledge, perspective and veracity. Nixon resigned, but it looked to me like there was plenty of evidence and political support to remove him in the Senate. He had lost almost all his political support.
Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about getting a hummer in the Oval Office. Clearly he broke the law, and societal norms. Ultimately he was sent to trial in the Senate, which didn't condone the actions but didn't see it as conduct significant enough to overturn the will of the voters. He had political support.
Trump has political support as well. While I'm convinced he abused power, I'm not sure about the illegality of it.
Nixon both broke the law and abused power and to equate what Trump did to Watergate is to show you are lacking some combination of historical knowledge, perspective and veracity. Nixon resigned, but it looked to me like there was plenty of evidence and political support to remove him in the Senate. He had lost almost all his political support.
Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about getting a hummer in the Oval Office. Clearly he broke the law, and societal norms. Ultimately he was sent to trial in the Senate, which didn't condone the actions but didn't see it as conduct significant enough to overturn the will of the voters. He had political support.
Trump has political support as well. While I'm convinced he abused power, I'm not sure about the illegality of it.
I said earlier on this thread that I generally agree with your position (though I don’t think the pressure meets the requirement of quid pro quo) except we are talking about Ukraine and the corrupt Biden family. All rules have exceptions. Yes there was pressure and yes the Bidens/Ukraines should be investigated. Again, what is the problem?
OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
BS. It was bribery. We have this $ to give you but you have to do this superficial act that benefits me in partisan politics to get it. Reading it any other way is being daft.
Show me where the money was ever mentioned. I’ll wait.
If it's a democrat it won't matter. Hell, we have Biden doing a real quid pro quo but that's okay because of reasons.
Time for some levity. They way you phrased this sentence reminded of the peasant talking to King Arthur in Monty Python and the Holy Grail:
"Dennis: the peasant Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Arthur: Be quiet!
Dennis: You can't expect to wield supreme power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!”
Arthur: Shut up!
Dennis: I mean, if I went around saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Arthur: [grabs Dennis] Shut up! Will you shut up?!
Dennis: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system!
Arthur: [shakes Dennis] Shut up!
Dennis: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I'm being repressed!
Arthur: Bloody Peasant!
Dennis: Ooh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?
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Joe Fan
10,000+ Posts
You mean the same Fiona Hill that said Ukraine interference in 2016 didn't exist? The Ukraine even admits that they did. Ukraine Court Rules Manafort Disclosure Caused ‘Meddling’ in U.S. Election
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OUBubba
5,000+ Posts
Bribery does not need to have $ involved. A thing of value would count. But, there was $400,000,000 of taxpayer funds involved.
Your comment said we have this $. I took that to mean money which wasn’t mentioned. Neither was a meeting at the White House. Lots of presumption. Maybe we should call you OUSondland.
Nope, you’re missing the point. If this continues based on and it largely is, the statement of “do me a favor”, the precedent is being set, and no one, Democrat or Republican will be spared.
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
Dems will vote to impeach, that was never in doubt. The fun begins when the Senate gets a hold of this. They have the final swing (won't be pretty, or comfortable), then voters can decide.
Can't see how dems come out ahead on this in the end. They needed to move the needle immediately and it didn't happen
Can't see how dems come out ahead on this in the end. They needed to move the needle immediately and it didn't happen
Nancy may let 20 or so Dems kill the impeachment.
LongestHorn
2,500+ Posts
The value is the announcement by Zelensky that Biden is under criminal investigation. Trump didn’t care if the actually investigated him or not. Why?
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
I'd LMAO if that happened, but if it did her career is over as Speaker. Schiff's dream of bigger things, done as well. They've gone all in on this thing
I know Pelosi had tried to reign this in for some time (before sept), but the far left has pinned a lot on impeachment, and, the wishful removal. Deliver or resign before the 2020 GE. At least that's my view
Horn2RunAgain
2,500+ Posts
He does care...and before it's over, he will be (investigated)
Zelensky ran on anti corruption. A public announcement would serve as a test whether Zelensky was serious about corruption.
Graham just started the investigation on the Bidens a few hours ago. I don't know if the Bidens are guilty of anything illegal (definitely unethical) but you can bet Graham will be a hell of a lot more responsible than Schiff has been.
LongestHorn
2,500+ Posts
What’s your defense of POTUS’ release of the convicted servicemen?
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