Happy Columbus Day!!!

OUBubba said:
Yes. Some of my Creek ancestors had slaves. That was the custom at the time. It's a far cry from cannibalism. ****** direction this thread took.

One of my Creek ancestors fought Andrew Jackson. Another fought along side Jackson.
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Are slavery and cannibalism (I have not read about this anywhere but I've not drilled into the subject either) a reason to take land that was not yours to begin with? Especially if you institute slavery.

I cannot reconcile the imperialism of Europe hundreds of years ago with Jesus' teachings. To me, there is no connection or justification in the words from the Sermon on the Mount for marauders bent on world conquest. There just isn't.

But at the same time, if a moral man happens upon a horrific human rights violation in any day and age, is that moral man obligated to correct the situation? And is correction imposing your moral standard, try and pass judgment? Then what do you do with their lands? Abandon them to the wolves?
 
bystander said:
Are slavery and cannibalism (I have not read about this anywhere but I've not drilled into the subject either) a reason to take land that was not yours to begin with? Especially if you institute slavery.

I cannot reconcile the imperialism of Europe hundreds of years ago with Jesus' teachings. To me, there is no connection or justification in the words from the Sermon on the Mount for marauders bent on world conquest. There just isn't.

But at the same time, if a moral man happens upon a horrific human rights violation in any day and age, is that moral man obligated to correct the situation? And is correction imposing your moral standard, try and pass judgment? Then what do you do with their lands? Abandon them to the wolves?
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Cannibalism was used as a justification to attack a culture and enslave its population. That may be why the tribes wiped out by the Spaniards are referenced as Queen Isabella had that rule. I'm not saying that the Aztecs, Toltecs, etc. didn't do it. I'm not saying that it didn't happen in any number of places where famine was an issue. I'm just saying that it was not a common practice. At least according to what I've read in "Mad Magazine".
 
bystander said:
I cannot reconcile the imperialism of Europe hundreds of years ago with Jesus' teachings. To me, there is no connection or justification in the words from the Sermon on the Mount for marauders bent on world conquest. There just isn't.
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I agree. It is not reconcilable with Jesus' teachings. The problem I have with using imperialism/conquest as a reason to generally or categorically impugn a culture or nation is that it creates the illusion that conquest is unique to the West, when it's actually the routine way in which nations and cultures have been created. Somebody conquered somebody else. It's ugly. It's immoral, but it's normal. Native American tribes engaged in conquest. Africans engaged in conquest. Asians engaged in conquest. Obviously Muslims are notorious conquerors. If conquest is the test of what makes a culture good or bad, there are pretty much no good cultures or nations.
 
Conflating Christianity with European expansion is a gross oversimplification. The prevailing view seemed to be loyalty to country on Earth, with a loyalty to Christ in spirit. Obviously as Deez points out, just about every culture on Earth has had aspirations of conquest at one time or another regardless of religious beliefs.

The inquisition wasn't very Christ like but that didn't stop it either. You had Europeans coming into contact with what they believed to be savages and they felt it was their duty to covert or destroy them. Looking at the situation from a 20th or 21st century perspective is dangerous. This is why we shouldn't condemn Columbus as "evil."
 
OUBubba said:
Cannibalism was used as a justification to attack a culture and enslave its population. That may be why the tribes wiped out by the Spaniards are referenced as Queen Isabella had that rule. I'm not saying that the Aztecs, Toltecs, etc. didn't do it. I'm not saying that it didn't happen in any number of places where famine was an issue. I'm just saying that it was not a common practice. At least according to what I've read in "Mad Magazine".
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You are a very good sport.
 
bystander said:
You are a very good sport.
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To be honest, years of interacting here have helped. I could point out a orange door on the football side and 60% of the people would be pissed at me because I'm a Sooner. This is better because 50% of the people are pissed at me because of my disdain of the previous 4 years and 45% are irritated at me because I don't agree with them.
 
2003TexasGrad said:
Looking at the situation from a 20th or 21st century perspective is dangerous. This is why we shouldn't condemn Columbus as "evil."
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I think the way to do it is this; instead of hating America, which I believe is a very real problem on the Left, we should instead quietly drop the celebration of things that are no longer acceptable to us. We should celebrate America's ability to change and to evolve morally. We don't have to celebrate Columbus; we can mention him as needed in the historical development of our modern country. That would be a compromise that I can get my head around.


Mr. Deez said:
The problem I have with using imperialism/conquest as a reason to generally or categorically impugn a culture or nation is that it creates the illusion that conquest is unique to the West
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Yes, I understand it is a bad world. My Father used to question me when I had my Democrat hat on. We would argue this very subject and if the conclusion was that America was bad or evil, he would ask me, "As opposed to whom?"

So ironically, as Conservatives, we are invoking something we detest from the Left: Moral Relativism.
 
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OUBubba said:
To be honest, years of interacting here have helped. I could point out a orange door on the football side and 60% of the people would be pissed at me because I'm a Sooner. This is better because 50% of the people are pissed at me because of my disdain of the previous 4 years and 45% are irritated at me because I don't agree with them.
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I've interacted in political chat forums since 9/11 or soon after. I've argued with, agreed with and subsequently turned on Liberals in that period of time. I'm a bit of a hot-head and I hate hypocrisy. I need to take it for what it is, a chat with strangers, but I have discovered that I actually care about what is happening to this country and greatly fear the evolution of our culture in directions that at times appear to be a political anarchist wasteland led by charlatans. And these charlatans can so easily create acolytes who are vile and flat-out aggressively naive, weak-minded, totalitarian and dangerous; if not violently, then culturally. And I will never back down from that.
 
OUBubba said:
To be honest, years of interacting here have helped. I could point out a orange door on the football side and 60% of the people would be pissed at me because I'm a Sooner. This is better because 50% of the people are pissed at me because of my disdain of the previous 4 years and 45% are irritated at me because I don't agree with them.
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I do wonder how conflicted people would be if you were a big Trump supporter. Are you mostly hated for being a Sooner or for being a "lib?"
 
Mr. Deez said:
I do wonder how conflicted people would be if you were a big Trump supporter. Are you mostly hated for being a Sooner or for being a "lib?"
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Here, for being a lib. I earned enough equity on the football boards by not acting like an asshat when someone came at me as one. I act as I would like a rival guest to behave.
 
OUBubba said:
Here, for being a lib. I earned enough equity on the football boards by not acting like an asshat when someone came at me as one. I act as I would like a rival guest to behave.
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That may be true, but it's a close call. I think the Switzer pic is enough to attract pretty significant hate. If you were a Trump fan, you might get some "you're not as dumb as you look"-type "compliments," but I think that's about as good as it would get. Lol.
 
bystander said:
I think the way to do it is this; instead of hating America, which I believe is a very real problem on the Left, we should instead quietly drop the celebration of things that are no longer acceptable to us. We should celebrate America's ability to change and to evolve morally. We don't have to celebrate Columbus; we can mention him as needed in the historical development of our modern country. That would be a compromise that I can get my head around.




Yes, I understand it is a bad world. My Father used to question me when I had my Democrat hat on. We would argue this very subject and if the conclusion was that America was bad or evil, he would ask me, "As opposed to whom?"

So ironically, as Conservatives, we are invoking something we detest from the Left: Moral Relativism.
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I'm only 42..... but I can't remember any Columbus celebrations in my life. Can you?
 
2003TexasGrad said:
I'm only 42..... but I can't remember any Columbus celebrations in my life. Can you?
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Columbus Day was a thing in my youth. I've lost track. If I'm wrong on the extent of the celebration then I'll move the goal posts and say my comment was a "hypothetical for instance."
 
I am grateful to the people who ran the Comanches off and moved the border to the Rio Grande so I don’t get tortured, scalped or murdered and have a jerk like Biden and Abbott steering the ship instead of AMLO and some cartel puppet in Coahuila
And thanks to my ancestors who got on a sailing ship and fled Germany for Texas

I was privileged to be born a white male in Texas.
 
huisache said:
I am grateful to the people who ran the Comanches off and moved the border to the Rio Grande so I don’t get tortured, scalped or murdered and have a jerk like Biden and Abbott steering the ship instead of AMLO and some cartel puppet in Coahuila
And thanks to my ancestors who got on a sailing ship and fled Germany for Texas

I was privileged to be born a white male in Texas.
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comanches were bad asses.
 
More out-gunned than outnumbered. The Texas Rangers under Jack Hays used Samuel Colt's five shot revolver, and later an improved six-shot revolver thanks to the design of Ranger Sam Walker, to defeat Comanches that outnumbered the Rangers 4 to 1.
 
Jack Hays was a bad bad man. But I think it was the flu that had the biggest effect on all the different Indian tribes.
 
huisache said:
I am grateful to the people who ran the Comanches off and moved the border to the Rio Grande so I don’t get tortured, scalped or murdered and have a jerk like Biden and Abbott steering the ship instead of AMLO and some cartel puppet in Coahuila
And thanks to my ancestors who got on a sailing ship and fled Germany for Texas

I was privileged to be born a white male in Texas.
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Does that make you one for the All of Mexico movement from the end of the Mexican-American War?
 
The history of slavery and how it was introduced into America is complex. It is also sad that Anglos took advantaged of African slavery to make money. Then it got entrenched in Southern culture which was a slave culture surely. But then you still have to realize that Southern slave culture was better (not good) than other areas who used Africa slaves. For example treatment of slaves in the Caribbean and Brazil was 100% worse.
 
I visited Spain in summer of 1997. The museum in Seville had a movie which highlighted Spanish abuses. Didn’t say anything about the native habits. I was pissed then.
 
In 2015, archaeologists found the main trophy rack of sacrificed human skulls at Mexico City's Templo Mayor Aztec ruin site.

That same year, artifacts found at the Zultepec-Tecoaque ruin site revealed evidence from when hundreds of people in a Spanish-led convoy were captured, sacrificed and apparently eaten.

A 2016 study found that in societies where social hierarchies were taking shape, ritual human sacrifices targeted poor people, helping the powerful control the lower classes and keep them in their place.
 
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