Education (Not Just UT)

Chop said:
The Prussian (later the American) purpose for universal public schooling -----> to build a better Army.

"[E]ducation for peasants was based more on discipline, subservience, conformity, grading, mindless memorization, suppression of creativity, suppression of intelligence, and other negative aspects of modern schooling."

(sound familiar........)


Gneisenau (August Neidhardt von Gneisenau)-- one of the principle architects of the Prussian reform (he was also Blucher's right hand man for the Prussians at Waterloo, and his unit captured Napoleon):

View attachment 10678

It worked. Within a generation, Prussia (soon to be Germany) had the best Army in the World. But their education system is ill-suited to today's world and the creativity we should inculcate.

They even named a battleship after him:
View attachment 10679


www.offlinepost.gr

The dark origins of public education

By Katerina Dimarogkona, Public education was created to free people’s minds from narrow-mindedness; to teach students critical thinking, foster creativity, and knowledge that will help them find a job; to ensure that voters have sufficient knowledge to defend democratic regimes against the ever-pr
www.offlinepost.gr www.offlinepost.gr
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Yes Chop. The system doesn't work to educate but to subjugate. We need to overhaul the whole thing.
 
Horn6721 said:
Mona
I wonder how much even a mediocre teacher positively influences the many many kids from disinterested dysfunctional homes where the most positive role model may be that teacher?
You are right of course except in those situations
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I'm sure they do positively influence their students. I'm not arguing that teacher's shouldn't do a good job and care for their students.

I just can't help myself but argue against non-economical discussion about labor rates for people. Teachers get paid ALL that the market will bare, and more in government schools.
 
Without a major overhaul, which will be vehemently resisted and may not be possible in today's political environment, there is still something that can be done.

Massive bonuses for the good teachers. Unions can take a hike. Bonus your top teachers, and I mean 15-20% or more of their normal salary. Lower bonuses for your pretty good/above average teachers, and no bonuses for average and below teachers. Re-grade them each Semester.
 
The purpose of physical education, and those Presidential physical fitness challenges, was also to prepare the youth for military service.

The Prussian influence lingers on...
 
Agree 100% Devil is in the details
Who sets the standards? Who judges the teachers?
It can't be just on grades.
 
Monahorns said:
I've learned way more since I have been out of school through reading and working.
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1) Your brain matured and 2) you gained self-motivation as well. The first of those is impossible for a child to possess, and the second is rare in teenagers and even scarcer in young kids.

Good teachers prime the first, and inspire the second.
 
SabreHorn said:
Dion,

This needs to be put in a category by itself as the alltime greatest post on HornFans. Not even "OU Sucks" comes close.

Having served on school boards (public & private) may have tainted my view, but my lady friend teaches ESL in Alief, my best friend taught third grade in Spring Branch (7 years on north side of freeway and the rest in Memorial), I have seen that district spiral downhill, while the private school went from having graduates accepted to the Ivys (public & private), Stanford, Northwestern, et al, but now has a couple to A&M, maybe one to Texas, the rest are headed to Tech, LSU, OU, Arkansas, Ole Miss, all because one person made a rule that sent the 20 best teachers packing. We are and have been doing this generation a huge disservice
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You've met Mrs. Sangre. You saw what she brings to the table.
 
The German educational system (a system very similar to the American) gave Albert Einstein an "F".

That's what the public education system thought of Einstein--he's a failure.

Some a$$-kisser, grade-grubber student who dutifully memorized a bunch of useless facts, however, was rated an "A", unlike that idiot future street sweeper Albert Einstein.
 
Chop said:
Without a major overhaul, which will be vehemently resisted and may not be possible in today's political environment, there is still something that can be done.

Massive bonuses for the good teachers. Unions can take a hike. Bonus your top teachers, and I mean 15-20% or more of their normal salary. Lower bonuses for your pretty good/above average teachers, and no bonuses for average and below teachers. Re-grade them each Semester.
Click to expand...
Whom is to decide which of the teachers is "top"? My experience has been that the administrators are an even bigger problem than the teachers.

Parents?
1) I love Miss Jones, she's the only teacher that ever gave little Johnny an "A"
2) That ***** gave my Susie a "B"; Susie has never, ever gotten a "B"
 
Sangre Naranjada said:
1) Your brain matured and 2) you gained self-motivation as well. The first of those is impossible for a child to possess, and the second is rare in teenagers and even scarcer in young kids.

Good teachers prime the first, and inspire the second.
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I don't disagree with your points. But I will also say that children can learn these skills very early. That is what the Montessori system is about.

I am not saying no teachers are needed. I am saying we don't have to pay teachers way beyond what we are doing today to provide a good education for our children. Parents can also do much of what you say in your points 1) and 2). We see that in home schooling. I'm fine with traditional schools too, but I am not going to pretend that children can't learn if we don't continue to increase government school budgets.
 
SabreHorn said:
Whom is to decide which of the teachers is "top"? My experience has been that the administrators are an even bigger problem than the teachers.

Parents?
1) I love Miss Jones, she's the only teacher that ever gave little Johnny an "A"
2) That ***** gave my Susie a "B"; Susie has never, ever gotten a "B"
Click to expand...

So only bureaucrats can determine things like this? That is what Progressivism is based on. Look what it got us during COVID. Smarmy bureaucrats like Fauci lying to us all so that they could wield power over us and get rich.
 
Monahorns said:
So only bureaucrats can determine things like this? That is what Progressivism is based on. Look what it got us during COVID. Smarmy bureaucrats like Fauci lying to us all so that they could wield power over us and get rich.
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You're talking to a man who lost 60 pounds due to an allergic reaction to their "vaccine" - 45 of it in six weeks.
 
It is remarkable to me that this approach is not the dominant one. "Money Math" is THE MOST IMPORTANT kind of math for the vast majority of people. Most are not going to be engineers or physicist or accountants, but everyone needs to understand their own finances. Financial Literacy ed
 
SabreHorn said:
You're talking to a man who lost 60 pounds due to an allergic reaction to their "vaccine" - 45 of it in six weeks.
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Sorry to hear that. Then I think you have good reason to apply heavy skepticism to the supposed expertise of any government bureaucracy including government schools.
 
BrntOrngStmpeDe said:
It is remarkable to me that this approach is not the dominant one. "Money Math" is THE MOST IMPORTANT kind of math for the vast majority of people. Most are not going to be engineers or physicist or accountants, but everyone needs to understand their own finances. Financial Literacy ed
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We teach damn near nothing in school that is useful in real life. The most useful class I took in high school was a 1- semester keyboarding class in 10th grade. No close second. I'm not saying everything else was a waste of time, but they simply prepared me for the next level class. That had very little use of their own.
 
www.edweek.org

State Grades on K-12 Achievement: 2021 Map and Rankings

Examine the grades and scores that states and the nation earned on K-12 achievement, along with how they scored on a host of indicators.
www.edweek.org www.edweek.org

Massachusetts #1

New Jersey #2

Florida #3

Texas gets a C-, tied with Arizona, Ohio, Georgia, New Hampshire, and some others.

New Mexico has overtaken Mississippi as home to the dumbest kids in the country.

There is a "moron belt" up and down much of the Mississippi River.
 
Chop said:
www.edweek.org

State Grades on K-12 Achievement: 2021 Map and Rankings

Examine the grades and scores that states and the nation earned on K-12 achievement, along with how they scored on a host of indicators.
www.edweek.org www.edweek.org

Massachusetts #1

New Jersey #2

Florida #3

Texas gets a C-, tied with Arizona, Ohio, Georgia, New Hampshire, and some others.

New Mexico has overtaken Mississippi as home to the dumbest kids in the country.

There is a "moron belt" up and down much of the Mississippi River.
Click to expand...

I don't trust education rankings. There's an assload of politics and questionable criteria in how they measure things. Massachusetts might be #1, but I'd never put my kid in their public schools.
 
Chop said:
www.edweek.org

State Grades on K-12 Achievement: 2021 Map and Rankings

Examine the grades and scores that states and the nation earned on K-12 achievement, along with how they scored on a host of indicators.
www.edweek.org www.edweek.org

Massachusetts #1

New Jersey #2

Florida #3

Texas gets a C-, tied with Arizona, Ohio, Georgia, New Hampshire, and some others.

New Mexico has overtaken Mississippi as home to the dumbest kids in the country.

There is a "moron belt" up and down much of the Mississippi River.
Click to expand...
there are 18 "indicators" in that assessment. To me one of the best, is the scores on AP exams because they are all standardized across the country. In AP exam pass rate Texas was 13th. Kids taking AP exams may not be a representative group since only academically oriented kids heading to college tend to take those, but that holds true everywhere. Texas has a particular problem in that we have so many ESL kids (18% =/-). There are only 4 other states in that ballpark.

That site/list had almost all states losing ground from 4th to 8th grade in both Math and English. I wonder why that is?
 
BrntOrngStmpeDe said:
there are 18 "indicators" in that assessment. To me one of the best, is the scores on AP exams because they are all standardized across the country. In AP exam pass rate Texas was 13th. Kids taking AP exams may not be a representative group since only academically oriented kids heading to college tend to take those, but that holds true everywhere. Texas has a particular problem in that we have so many ESL kids (18% =/-). There are only 4 other states in that ballpark.

That site/list had almost all states losing ground from 4th to 8th grade in both Math and English. I wonder why that is?
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My take:

The upper end - the education for the top 15-20% of students in Texas is as good, or better, than ever. I say this after looking through my kids' advanced chemistry class, etc. Also, the advanced kids are a year ahead in math compared to what the advanced kids were a generation ago. The top math track at the better large public schools in Texas is:

7th grade - Algebra 1
8th grade - Geometry
9th grade - Algebra 2
10th grade - Pre-Calculus a/k/a Trigonometry
11th grade - Calculus
12th grade - Something else, often something easier like Computer Science or Statistics.

This is a year ahead of the top track a generation ago.

The middle is a little bit worse off than in was in the past. The bottom 33% or so is much, much worse off than in the past.
 
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